2023-24 Roster Thread 4: September is National Bourbon Heritage Month

[Chicken N Raffls]

They don't realize players aren't getting better because they're developing all good traits out of them. Because they think good traits are bad and emphasize the least useful nonsense they can. If anything it sounds like they're going to double down on that again. The same trash Hextallian process.

Their thinking is so dated in a sport that's whole thinking is dated. Their ideas might have worked 20-30 years ago, but they weren't ahead of the curve even then.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Phillies had an MVP superstar want to come here for some reason. Then he demanded they trade for a star catcher. Then spend money on one of the best pitchers in baseball. Then get his star SS friend to come here. Spend and spend and spend — trades and dollars. Homegrown Braves they are not. There are less than zero lessons for a modern hockey team to take from the Phillies. Not shocking the 90s Flyers alum found one though.

The Phillies fan base is also very casual. Always has been. Baseball has no competition for the majority of the regular season. The Flyers, with more competition for time, subsist on the backs of diehards and older generations. They’ve already been mediocre for as long as the now-good Phillies have been (2013). It’s possible, but it takes a lot to bring fans back from multiple decades of apathy. Bubble try hards ain’t it.

Meanwhile the Flyers had a star throw himself at them and said "nah sorry too much skill here already"

 

[freakydallas13]

I want an organization that wants to stomp on another organization’s throat but I’m old fashioned.

The next time the Flyers are winning, I hope they spot the opposing team a few goals in the spirit of friendship and equality.

 

[deadhead]

GOOD FOR BOTH TEAMS.

I can't believe someone said that with a straight face.

It's a repeated game. The optimal outcome is to win over the long haul, not one round.

Therefore the optimal strategy is to create a perception of win-win, and make the other GM feel they got a fair deal - you arbitrage value based on different valuations, not on trying to "trick" the other guy. Often this may mean giving up a player/pick you value lower than your trading partner, in order to "even" out the deal in the eyes of the opposing GM (but as long as you're getting total surplus value out of the deal based on your valuation).

Going for the throat is counterproductive, it creates resentment, makes other GMs wary of dealing with you, and rarely involves enough value to justify the diseconomies created by such behavior.

The problem isn't trying to be "fair," it's bad evaluation of your players and your trade targets. If you're smart about your valuations, it's not hard to create deals that make both parties happy (at least initially).

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Oh look he's defending nonsense again

 

[Flyerfan4life]

im so disapointed no one has posted the Rolls picture....

(esp. since i now know what it means! hahaa)

 

[volnoir]

The writing is on the wall. The Flyers are going to sign Stamkos, Brady Skjei and Mark Scheifele to 7 year deals and call the rebuild over.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's a repeated game. The optimal outcome is to win over the long haul, not one round.

Therefore the optimal strategy is to create a perception of win-win, and make the other GM feel they got a fair deal - you arbitrage value based on different valuations, not on trying to "trick" the other guy. Often this may mean giving up a player/pick you value lower than your trading partner, in order to "even" out the deal in the eyes of the opposing GM (but as long as you're getting total surplus value out of the deal based on your valuation).

Going for the throat is counterproductive, it creates resentment, makes other GMs wary of dealing with you, and rarely involves enough value to justify the diseconomies created by such behavior.

The problem isn't trying to be "fair," it's bad evaluation of your players and your trade targets. If you're smart about your valuations, it's not hard to create deals that make both parties happy (at least initially).

You don't win the long game by losing every deal out of fairness.

The resentment angle is bullshit. We've heard over and over for years about how X move is resented or classless but then in the end everyone still deals with them because it's still in their interest, and that's all that matters.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

You can be the biggest douche canoe in the world but if you have the goods that other people want they’re going to grin and take it.

No one in this league needs to play nice and the idea that it’s a good thing is unconscionable.

 

[tnfrs]

You can be the biggest douche canoe in the world but if you have the goods that other people want they’re going to grin and take it.

No one in this league needs to play nice and the idea that it’s a good thing is unconscionable.

carolina didnt have to finish the rizzo business but we all know it was the gentlemanly move

 

[Deadpool8812]

That team was at least fun to watch. This version? Not so much

True, and they had a load of young talent that just came into the league building towards that 2010 Cup final run

 

[BernieParent]

Keith Jones puff piece alert!

Feel better?

View attachment 746429

View attachment 746430

Meet the new blahs, same as the old blahs.

 

[deadhead]

carolina didnt have to finish the rizzo business but we all know it was the gentlemanly move

It's a perfect example of being "nice" at low cost.

Waddell probably knows Rizzo might not sign with Carolina due to their depth of prospects, but he might perceive a better chance in Philly, so he throws him in at almost zero cost to him.

Meanwhile, he's seen as someone you can trust on a handshake agreement, which means other GMs will be more willing to work with him in the future.

 

[Beef Invictus]

But different than losing everything you do so the other guy feels good.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

It's a repeated game. The optimal outcome is to win over the long haul, not one round.

Therefore the optimal strategy is to create a perception of win-win, and make the other GM feel they got a fair deal - you arbitrage value based on different valuations, not on trying to "trick" the other guy. Often this may mean giving up a player/pick you value lower than your trading partner, in order to "even" out the deal in the eyes of the opposing GM (but as long as you're getting total surplus value out of the deal based on your valuation).

Going for the throat is counterproductive, it creates resentment, makes other GMs wary of dealing with you, and rarely involves enough value to justify the diseconomies created by such behavior.

The problem isn't trying to be "fair," it's bad evaluation of your players and your trade targets. If you're smart about your valuations, it's not hard to create deals that make both parties happy (at least initially).

Ok, so there are two aspects here. One is what they say and the other is what they do. I acknowledge this fully. I don’t trust in Keith Jones to be nuanced enough to know to say this without meaning it. You probably do. It’s not like either one of us can be proven right or wrong.

As you correctly like to bring up, a GM’s first priority is keeping the job. That aspect is never going away. I don’t believe that someone will take a worse deal because you extracted an extra 3rd rounder on a salary dump. I do believe the Canucks would avoid trading with you if you gave Pettersson a giant offer sheet, but that’s outside of the scope of Jones’ comments.

What I think gets conflated in these situations is extracting value versus being a dick in negotiations. The two are not inherently linked.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

The Phillies had an MVP superstar want to come here for some reason. Then he demanded they trade for a star catcher. Then spend money on one of the best pitchers in baseball. Then get his star SS friend to come here. Spend and spend and spend — trades and dollars. Homegrown Braves they are not. There are less than zero lessons for a modern hockey team to take from the Phillies. Not shocking the 90s Flyers alum found one though.

The Phillies fan base is also very casual. Always has been. Baseball has no competition for the majority of the regular season. The Flyers, with more competition for time, subsist on the backs of diehards and older generations. They’ve already been mediocre for as long as the now-good Phillies have been (2013). It’s possible, but it takes a lot to bring fans back from multiple decades of apathy. Bubble try hards ain’t it.

Obviously the Phillies are mostly a bought for team. But even their lesser heralded guys that they found in less obvious places like Marsh, Sanchez, Pache, etc. do you have any faith in the Flyers unearthing value in less obvious places like that?

 

[ponder719]

Obviously the Phillies are mostly a bought for team. But even their lesser heralded guys that they found in less obvious places like Marsh, Sanchez, Pache, etc. do you have any faith in the Flyers unearthing value in less obvious places like that?

We only ever seem to look in less obvious places, so eventually, yes, we probably will find something resembling value.

 

[deadhead]

What I think gets conflated in these situations is extracting value versus being a dick in negotiations. The two are not inherently linked.

Exactly! Extracting value is about your skill in evaluating your own and other teams' players, both scouting raw skill and understanding what your organization is good at in terms of development and who fits your schemes and philosophy.

Some teams are bad drafting after the 1st rd (Colorado for example) so they should value later draft picks at a lower rate than teams that are better at drafting and development (TB). Some players might be a good fit in Florida but a bad fit for whatever team Trotz is coaching.

That's why I'm happy they demoted Brown - Briere recognized they weren't doing a good job of pro scouting. And why he's made a number of changes to their development process. You can be a great negotiator, but if you have bad information and lack resources, you're gonna make bad deals.

 

[deadhead]

Obviously the Phillies are mostly a bought for team. But even their lesser heralded guys that they found in less obvious places like Marsh, Sanchez, Pache, etc. do you have any faith in the Flyers unearthing value in less obvious places like that?

The Phillies have revamped their scouting and development groups twice in the last five years or so, they seem to have finally found the personnel to make it work, and have rationalized and feed resources to their development system, starting with a big Dominican complex and the Clearwater complex. More resources into every aspect of development and more consistency in their approach throughout the organization.

To be fair to Fletcher, it's the one thing he did right, he lobbied for more resources for scouting and development - it wasn't the lack of money that prevented this - it was that Holmgren and Hextall were dinosaurs who didn't understand the importance of all aspects of development, nutrition, strength training, skating coaches, assistant coaches who could focus on skill training, etc. Even if Fletcher didn't do this as well as it could be done, he got the organization to spend and focus on these issues. As the Phillies show, once you make the commitment, it's just a matter of finding the right people.

 

[tnfrs]

The Phillies have revamped their scouting and development groups twice in the last five years or so, they seem to have finally found the personnel to make it work, and have rationalized and feed resources to their development system, starting with a big Dominican complex and the Clearwater complex. More resources into every aspect of development and more consistency in their approach throughout the organization.

To be fair to Fletcher, it's the one thing he did right, he lobbied for more resources for scouting and development - it wasn't the lack of money that prevented this - it was that Holmgren and Hextall were dinosaurs who didn't understand the importance of all aspects of development, nutrition, strength training, skating coaches, assistant coaches who could focus on skill training, etc. Even if Fletcher didn't do this as well as it could be done, he got the organization to spend and focus on these issues. As the Phillies show, once you make the commitment, it's just a matter of finding the right people.

They also had a guy like Sami Kapanen working with Tuomaala all this season one on one to develop some skills, and they hooked Denver Barkey up with Gary Roberts this summer, I think theyve realized that its not enough to just tell these kids to get stronger they have to tailor the training and bring in people who understand the science and work with them pretty much every step along the way. might also be why Fletcher has drafted so many college kids and guys from the NTDP. Schools generally have better facilities and training staff than a random junior team,

 

[deadhead]

Junior team coaches also aren't there to develop players but to win games. Someone in the FLyers FO made a good point, the top players in junior often play 25-30 minutes a night as HCs try to win, so they learn to pace themselves and glide through shifts - but at the pro level that won't fly, so they have to unlearn bad habits. They also can develop a sense of entitlement as they know the HC's job depends on their performance. A player like Desnoyers who started out as a bottom six guy before he was traded and broke out offensively, is better prepared for the pro game.

This can be complicated at the AHL level, supposedly the reason the Chicago Wolves didn't want to stay a Carolina affiliate is that Carolina wanted to dictate playing time, play only prospects, and completely focus on player development at the expense of winning - which is a great way to guarantee empty seats (fans in Chicago don't give a shit about Hurricane prospects).

Chicago Wolves to shed NHL affiliation

Wolves general manager Wendell Young confirmed Wednesday the Wolves plan to become an independent AHL team.

theathletic.com

While LHV is the Flyers affiliate, I think they're not as unreasonable as Waddell, they want to develop players, but it's a fine balance, you want to play prospects, but enough AHL veterans to give them guidance on the ice, and field a good enough team to go deep into the playoffs both for the experience and because you don't want the team to become a money pit - even Comcast isn't interested in fueling bonfires with cash.

Even then, I've noticed LHV is turning to younger AHL veterans who might still have upside or at least be usable as injury callups: Belpedio (27), Mete (25), Zmolek (24), Marody (26), Brooks (27), Gardner (27), Furry (25).

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Phillies have revamped their scouting and development groups twice in the last five years or so, they seem to have finally found the personnel to make it work, and have rationalized and feed resources to their development system, starting with a big Dominican complex and the Clearwater complex. More resources into every aspect of development and more consistency in their approach throughout the organization.

To be fair to Fletcher, it's the one thing he did right, he lobbied for more resources for scouting and development - it wasn't the lack of money that prevented this - it was that Holmgren and Hextall were dinosaurs who didn't understand the importance of all aspects of development, nutrition, strength training, skating coaches, assistant coaches who could focus on skill training, etc. Even if Fletcher didn't do this as well as it could be done, he got the organization to spend and focus on these issues. As the Phillies show, once you make the commitment, it's just a matter of finding the right people.

Clarke is the source of all that. Clarke. Not Holmgren.

 

[deadhead]

Obviously the Phillies are mostly a bought for team. But even their lesser heralded guys that they found in less obvious places like Marsh, Sanchez, Pache, etc. do you have any faith in the Flyers unearthing value in less obvious places like that?

They also gave value for value:
Marsh cost O'Hoppe
Sanchez cost Mead (top ML prospect)
Pache was cheap (Sullivan), Alvarado was cheap (Cleavinger), Soto cost Maton and Vierling
Lorenzon cost 2B Lee

 

[freakydallas13]

To be fair to Fletcher, it's the one thing he did right

I was not expecting the growth from "the one mistake" to "the one thing he did right" from you, but it's refreshing to read.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

The Phillies have revamped their scouting and development groups twice in the last five years or so, they seem to have finally found the personnel to make it work, and have rationalized and feed resources to their development system, starting with a big Dominican complex and the Clearwater complex. More resources into every aspect of development and more consistency in their approach throughout the organization.

To be fair to Fletcher, it's the one thing he did right, he lobbied for more resources for scouting and development - it wasn't the lack of money that prevented this - it was that Holmgren and Hextall were dinosaurs who didn't understand the importance of all aspects of development, nutrition, strength training, skating coaches, assistant coaches who could focus on skill training, etc. Even if Fletcher didn't do this as well as it could be done, he got the organization to spend and focus on these issues. As the Phillies show, once you make the commitment, it's just a matter of finding the right people.

not to defend Ronald in any way, didn't he also do this long before chuck came on board? hell didnt he ban pizza

Chuck signed ND and ZM. Is that not dinosaur thinking?