2023-24 Roster Thread 3: We Three Flyers

[Beef Invictus]

They're not doubling down, Tippett, Gauthier, Michkov, they're finally adding players who can keep up.
Foerster, Kaplan are more old style, but both are skilled passers.
They can add more speed (and did later in the draft) but they're no longer slugs.

If there's a hole going forward, it is the lack of size and speed on defense, York, Andrae lack jets, Zamula is an average skater who lacks mass.
Sanheim is the only D-man with speed, but he struggles to finish in the O-zone.
Risto, Attard, Ginning are the only ones with size. Maybe McDonald down the road.

Problem is intil reinforcements arrive, there's no alternative to grinding it out.

Tippett is a 3rd liner

I'd once again like to beg you to never tell us we overrate players.

Also an LOL at this idea that they HAVE to grind it out. You're just setting up a defense of the inevitable Tortorella hockey, as if it's a necessity and not what he always does everywhere.

 

[deadhead]

*clears throat*

THE HOLE IS GOOD HOCKEY PLAYERS. IT’S BEEN THE SAME HOLE FOR A DECADE.

How can it possibly be this hard to focus on what players can do rather than what they can’t?

If you don't have good hockey players, then what they can do is generally play defense, forecheck aggressively and avoid turnovers.
You're gonna dump and chase when you don't have a critical mass of forwards who can make clean entries or mobile D-men who can carry the puck through the neutral zone.
And you fix this by patiently accumulating assets until you have enough talent to play a more aggressively offensive style.

Meanwhile, it is what it is.

 

[deadhead]

Dunno....ask 24 year old Cates

I'm sure they offered something similar on a "show me" contract, i.e., do it for a full season before you ask for $30+ million.
As posted above, Frost's agent rejected that sort of deal.

The Flyers will keep a close eye on Michkov and Gauthier, if both look like they can stay at center, if Frost wants to be overpaid, he may well have a new address come spring.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

If you don't have good hockey players, then what they can do is generally play defense, forecheck aggressively and avoid turnovers.
You're gonna dump and chase when you don't have a critical mass of forwards who can make clean entries or mobile D-men who can carry the puck through the neutral zone.
And you fix this by patiently accumulating assets until you have enough talent to play a more aggressively offensive style.

Meanwhile, it is what it is.

That is prioritizing the now over the future. You’ve just told me that they’re trying to win now.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Is Morgan Frost looking for the Seth Jones deal?

 

[freakydallas13]

"This team hasn't had any young players worth anything for over a decade, but also there is nothing wrong with their drafting nor their development program"

"THIS batch of prospects will break the cycle though. I've said that every year for a decade, but I have a good feeling about it this time."

 

[FlyerNutter]

I’d be happy if they traded Frost to Winnipeg.

He’s kind of boring for me but would have a chance to definitely get some minutes with talent around to help insulate him.

Logan Stanley 1:1 and the triumvirate squeals in joy.

 

[deadhead]

That is prioritizing the now over the future. You’ve just told me that they’re trying to win now.

If you want a dysfunctional franchise, play for draft picks, like the Jets for a couple decades.
You don't develop players by teaching them how to lose.
And you identify "keepers" by seeing who shows up for 82 games v who is focused on padding their stats for their next contract.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

If you want a dysfunctional franchise, play for draft picks, like the Jets for a couple decades.
You don't develop players by teaching them how to lose.
And you identify "keepers" by seeing who shows up for 82 games v who is focused on padding their stats for their next contract.

I'm not talking about tanking and I'm certainly not talking about whatever gatekeeping you want to apply to the players you don't like.

I am talking about player development. You can't just flip a switch in 3 years and say it's time to develop offensive skills now.

 

[TB87]

Maybe @Beef Invictus is right. I heard a rumor that Tortorella calls his assistant coaches "Fish Speakers."

God Emperor = when the Dune series fell of a cliff.

I know some people who liked that book. It’s just nowhere close to the quality of the 1st 3 books in the series.

 

[deadhead]

I'm not talking about tanking and I'm certainly not talking about whatever gatekeeping you want to apply to the players you don't like.

I am talking about player development. You can't just flip a switch in 3 years and say it's time to develop offensive skills now.

I don't think you develop offensive skills to the same extent as you teach defense and fundamentals.

Offense primarily is instinctive, pattern recognition, reaction time, eye to hand coordination (accurate passing) and so on. You got it or you don't to some extent. There are set plays, but it's a fluid game, whatever you draw on the chalkboard (or I-pad these days) can quickly break down - good offensive players have the skill and vision to improvise.

Defense is easier to teach, much more about positioning, taking the right angles, recognizing when a defenseman is attacking the O-zone and cycling to cover for him. And a lot is effort, back checking is all about effort and positioning, get back quickly and where you're supposed to be. Which is why a lot of defensive defensemen emerge after 2-3 AHL seasons.

Put it this way, how many mediocre offensive players at the CHL or college level are developed into top six offensive players in the NHL? By any team?
Or why Cates may have more offensive upside, but he's not going to be a 2C offensively no matter who is coaching him.

Offensive players are more likely to blossom not through coaching but better situations - Karlsson didn't blossom in Vegas b/c he was "kept down" by Torts, he blossomed b/c he was no longer blocked by Dubois and Wennberg and had veteran wings and a lot more PT (it was instant success, which makes it unlikey to be due to "development"). We saw that with Tippett here. Sure there are refinements that can be made, but it a player doesn't have "it", doubtful any development program will make much of a difference.

 

[Tripod]

I'm sure they offered something similar on a "show me" contract, i.e., do it for a full season before you ask for $30+ million.
As posted above, Frost's agent rejected that sort of deal.

The Flyers will keep a close eye on Michkov and Gauthier, if both look like they can stay at center, if Frost wants to be overpaid, he may well have a new address come spring.

Except you have no idea what they offered. You are ASSUMING Frost is asking for 30 million. You are ASSUMING he wants to be overpaid.

But of course, you must DEFEND everything they do...or don't do.

 

[deadhead]

Except you have no idea what they offered. You are ASSUMING Frost is asking for 30 million. You are ASSUMING he wants to be overpaid.

But of course, you must DEFEND everything they do...or don't do.

From above:

"what kind of contract does he expect?

BM: More than a prove-it and a bigger role than what JT may have in mind."

Obviously that means more than a short-term bridge, and "bigger role" sounds like he wants to be guaranteed the 2C role (Couts is obviously 1C).

Farabee got 6x5M, TK 6x5.5M, so if he's looking for something comparable, that's $30+M.

 

[Tripod]

From above:

"what kind of contract does he expect?

BM: More than a prove-it and a bigger role than what JT may have in mind."

Obviously that means more than a short-term bridge, and "bigger role" sounds like he wants to be guaranteed the 2C role (Couts is obviously 1C).

Farabee got 6x5M, TK 6x5.5M, so if he's looking for something comparable, that's $30+M.

Maybe the team bridge they are offering is 1.5 million. Or 1.7 million. You have no idea.

You have nomidea if he is looking for something comparable Farabee or TK. You are only saying that I defense of the team. Maybe he is asking for 4 million x4/5 years. Who the f*** knows.

But you always default to defend the idiots in charge. It's what you do.

Given our options, we 100% should be having Frost as the #2C anyways. But your boy Torts has his own agenda.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If you don't have good hockey players, then what they can do is generally play defense, forecheck aggressively and avoid turnovers.
You're gonna dump and chase when you don't have a critical mass of forwards who can make clean entries or mobile D-men who can carry the puck through the neutral zone.
And you fix this by patiently accumulating assets until you have enough talent to play a more aggressively offensive style.

Meanwhile, it is what it is.

No not really. Bad players are bad, you see.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If you want a dysfunctional franchise, play for draft picks, like the Jets for a couple decades.
You don't develop players by teaching them how to lose.
And you identify "keepers" by seeing who shows up for 82 games v who is focused on padding their stats for their next contract.

The Flyers are a dysfunctional franchise and the Jets are better than them.

 

[Beef Invictus]

God Emperor = when the Dune series fell of a cliff.

I know some people who liked that book. It’s just nowhere close to the quality of the 1st 3 books in the series.

We fight now

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't think you develop offensive skills to the same extent as you teach defense and fundamentals.

Offense primarily is instinctive, pattern recognition, reaction time, eye to hand coordination (accurate passing) and so on. You got it or you don't to some extent. There are set plays, but it's a fluid game, whatever you draw on the chalkboard (or I-pad these days) can quickly break down - good offensive players have the skill and vision to improvise.

Defense is easier to teach, much more about positioning, taking the right angles, recognizing when a defenseman is attacking the O-zone and cycling to cover for him. And a lot is effort, back checking is all about effort and positioning, get back quickly and where you're supposed to be. Which is why a lot of defensive defensemen emerge after 2-3 AHL seasons.

Put it this way, how many mediocre offensive players at the CHL or college level are developed into top six offensive players in the NHL? By any team?
Or why Cates may have more offensive upside, but he's not going to be a 2C offensively no matter who is coaching him.

Offensive players are more likely to blossom not through coaching but better situations - Karlsson didn't blossom in Vegas b/c he was "kept down" by Torts, he blossomed b/c he was no longer blocked by Dubois and Wennberg and had veteran wings and a lot more PT (it was instant success, which makes it unlikey to be due to "development"). We saw that with Tippett here. Sure there are refinements that can be made, but it a player doesn't have "it", doubtful any development program will make much of a difference.

If this were true the Flyers development results would be good.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

please let frost hold out to start camp. That would provide so much entertainment.

 

[TB87]

We fight now

I’m open to the possibility that the medium in which I consumed that story (Audiobook) wasn’t the best way to experience it.

 

[deadhead]

Maybe the team bridge they are offering is 1.5 million. Or 1.7 million. You have no idea.

You have nomidea if he is looking for something comparable Farabee or TK. You are only saying that I defense of the team. Maybe he is asking for 4 million x4/5 years. Who the f*** knows.

But you always default to defend the idiots in charge. It's what you do.

Given our options, we 100% should be having Frost as the #2C anyways. But your boy Torts has his own agenda.

Common sense. If Frost was asking for a 4x4.5, he'd be signed. And I doubt they offered him less on a bridge than Tiippett and Cates.

Torts criticizes all his players at one point or another, who wasn't benched or demoted at some point last season.
But PT tells you who he really dislikes, look at Bellows, buried.
Others get extended auditions, like Lemieux, only to be allowed to walk.

Frost played as much as the "golden boy", Torts wouldn't give him that opportunity if he didn't see something worthwhile.
Allison got top 9 minutes.
Foerster in his cameo got top 6 minutes, whereas Lycksell barely saw the ice.

 

[Rebels57]

Nothing makes me appreciate the Phillies more than the Flyers.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Common sense. If Frost was asking for a 4x4.5, he'd be signed. And I doubt they offered him less on a bridge than Tiippett and Cates.

Torts criticizes all his players at one point or another, who wasn't benched or demoted at some point last season.
But PT tells you who he really dislikes, look at Bellows, buried.
Others get extended auditions, like Lemieux, only to be allowed to walk.

Frost played as much as the "golden boy", Torts wouldn't give him that opportunity if he didn't see something worthwhile.
Allison got top 9 minutes.
Foerster in his cameo got top 6 minutes, whereas Lycksell barely saw the ice.

Because of injuries Tortorella had no choice but to play him.

 

[wasup]

Common sense. If Frost was asking for a 4x4.5, he'd be signed. And I doubt they offered him less on a bridge than Tiippett and Cates.

Torts criticizes all his players at one point or another, who wasn't benched or demoted at some point last season.
But PT tells you who he really dislikes, look at Bellows, buried.
Others get extended auditions, like Lemieux, only to be allowed to walk.

Frost played as much as the "golden boy", Torts wouldn't give him that opportunity if he didn't see something worthwhile.
Allison got top 9 minutes.
Foerster in his cameo got top 6 minutes, whereas Lycksell barely saw the ice.

I was told by some players earlier there are more than a few who have asked for trades , maybe Frost is one of them .

 

[FlyerNutter]

I was told by some players earlier there are more than a few who have asked for trades , maybe Frost is one of them .

Can I ask like what’s your connection