2023-24 Roster Thread 1: Entering the Starting Gate

[deadhead]

Oh, we’re doing the thing where we look at small sample sizes again to prove an already held stance.

What’s that called again?

Right, b/c the three teams that have the high talent draft pick scorers, 2 have been eliminated, the 3rd is down 3-2.
Boston had a long run despite dumping their only two high draft picks (Wheeler and Seguin) for pennies on the dollar.
St Louis had a solid run.

There's plenty of precedent for building SC contenders without #1 pick franchise players.
It certainly helps, but with the lottery, it's hard to ensure that even a terrible season will get you up there (Colorado had the worst record, picked #4, and ended up with Makar!)

 

[Beef Invictus]

Big, if true.

Is it too early?

 

[freakydallas13]

Right, b/c the three teams that have the high talent draft pick scorers, 2 have been eliminated, the 3rd is down 3-2.
Boston had a long run despite dumping their only two high draft picks (Wheeler and Seguin) for pennies on the dollar.
St Louis had a solid run.

There's plenty of precedent for building SC contenders without #1 pick franchise players.
It certainly helps, but with the lottery, it's hard to ensure that even a terrible season will get you up there (Colorado had the worst record, picked #4, and ended up with Makar!)

Good thing this team interviewed the assistant GM of that juggernaut Canes team before hiring a replacement for Fletcher.

Oh wait.

 

[deadhead]

Good thing this team interviewed the assistant GM of that juggernaut Canes team before hiring a replacement for Fletcher.

Oh wait.

Yes, they should have found a retread with a losing record and hired him as their GM:

Waddell was named the first general manager of the Atlanta Thrashers. He served as general manager of the Thrashers until the conclusion of the 2009–10 season when he was promoted to team president, and Rick Dudley succeeded him as general manager.[2] During his tenure as general manager of the Thrashers, the team recorded a 308–401–45–66 record and made their lone playoff appearance in 2006–07.

Waddell was named President of Gale Force Sports & Entertainment, the parent company of the NHL's Carolina Hurricanes, on July 1, 2014. On May 8, 2018, Waddell was named president and general manager of the Hurricanes.

 

[Tripod]

Right, b/c the three teams that have the high talent draft pick scorers, 2 have been eliminated, the 3rd is down 3-2.
Boston had a long run despite dumping their only two high draft picks (Wheeler and Seguin) for pennies on the dollar.
St Louis had a solid run.

There's plenty of precedent for building SC contenders without #1 pick franchise players.
It certainly helps, but with the lottery, it's hard to ensure that even a terrible season will get you up there (Colorado had the worst record, picked #4, and ended up with Makar!)

And yet every SC winner since the 2005 lockout won a cup with a #1 or #2 overall pick in their lineup except St.L. and Det. And they had a #3 overall....or Datsyuk/Lidstrom/Hank.

 

[freakydallas13]

Yes, they should have found a retread with a losing record and hired him as their GM:

Waddell was named the first general manager of the Atlanta Thrashers. He served as general manager of the Thrashers until the conclusion of the 2009–10 season when he was promoted to team president, and Rick Dudley succeeded him as general manager.[2] During his tenure as general manager of the Thrashers, the team recorded a 308–401–45–66 record and made their lone playoff appearance in 2006–07.

Waddell was named President of Gale Force Sports & Entertainment, the parent company of the NHL's Carolina Hurricanes, on July 1, 2014. On May 8, 2018, Waddell was named president and general manager of the Hurricanes.

"We don't need to tank to win, look at Carolina"

"Okay, should we try and poach the guy behind their success?"

"No, we're promoting the special assistant to the previous awful GM and also the team's colour commentator"



K.

 

[Cody Webster]

Can't even keep up with all these different made up view points. They change by the day

 

[Magua]

Say, what's Jack Hughes doing tonight. Yes, he's talented 34-34 68 at ES this season. Franchise center.

Meanwhile, Carolina's forwards (ES scoring):
Aho 26-22 48
Necas 19-25 44
Svechnikov 18-21 39 (out for the PO)
Jarvis 13-20 33
Kotkaniemi 14-17 31
Staal 16-16 32
Martinook 12-20 32

Nope, not a single superstar forward on that roster. Aho is very good, but I don't think anyone considers him a franchise player.

It's a team game, it's easier to build a team with a couple top picks that work out, but there's other ways to build a SC contender.

Oh, brother. You act like Jersey isn't deep. Hughes, Bratt, Hischier, Palat, Tatar, Mercer, Meier, on top of a great defense -- which, by the way, still has two recent top 4 picks to add next season. It was their first playoff series as a core; Jack Hughes was 21 this season; hockey is a high variance sport. They made it to round 2, and Carolina is a well oiled machine, injured or not. For some reason you're minimizing their league best defense, and yes, Aho is a f***ing star. Because I know your post is really based on the Flyers not having top picks, I'll say wake me up when they have a Svech/Aho/Necas caliber player, let alone all 3 and the best D core.

You're doing the thing where none of your opinions can co-exist with the others. Carolina is one of the best structured teams in the league, but Tulsky -- who handles the pro scouting and analytics -- is a total unknown and similar to Keith Jones.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yes, they should have found a retread with a losing record and hired him as their GM:

Waddell was named the first general manager of the Atlanta Thrashers. He served as general manager of the Thrashers until the conclusion of the 2009–10 season when he was promoted to team president, and Rick Dudley succeeded him as general manager.[2] During his tenure as general manager of the Thrashers, the team recorded a 308–401–45–66 record and made their lone playoff appearance in 2006–07.

Waddell was named President of Gale Force Sports & Entertainment, the parent company of the NHL's Carolina Hurricanes, on July 1, 2014. On May 8, 2018, Waddell was named president and general manager of the Hurricanes.

You're deleting a ton of context regarding the Thrashers. Management was a disaster and he had zero resources.

Weird how your defenses always rely on that sort of selective telling of reality. Some would say it's dishonest.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Oh, we’re doing the thing where we look at small sample sizes again to prove an already held stance.

What’s that called again?

I like how Aho isn't a star, apparently. And ignoring defense isn't an accident either. Reminds me of the days when Backstrom was argued as elite and Giroux, who was better, wasn't.

I can't imagine behaving in such bad faith all the time.

 

[deadhead]

Tulsky has nothing to do with Keith Jones, he is similar to Briere in that he's an unknown. So was Sakic. Until he does it, he's a gamble.
If he was such a sure thing, teams would be beating down his door to hire him, teams have hired enough players out of LF that his resume would get action.

My point on Waddell is past isn't necessarily the future, imagine the outrage had the Flyers hired him off his meh career.
Hard to predict who'll succeed, whether an outlier candidate or an experienced retread.

As far as winning without a top pick, it's hard to win period. Teams with top picks generally sucked for an extended period and have multiple top 5 and top 10 picks, Edmonton blew (2) #1s before they hit the jackpot with McDavid and still haven't got the SC Finals.
NJ may develop into a contender, or they may be the next Toronto, tease but no please.

You can try to tank, but Arizona still couldn't get close to the bottom three, and they worked as hard to tank as any team in the NHL the last two seasons (partially b/c they're broke as much as a strategy). The lottery makes that strategy far less certain.

Makes more sense to me to use try to get younger, add assets, if you have a bad season you tank by accident, if you do well it's because young players emerge - if enough emerge you have the assets to go out and get top players like Vegas trading for Stone and Eichel. If you strip all your assets, and don't end up with a franchise player - then what? Rinse and repeat for 3-4 years until you get lucky, then wait another five years to build a team around that player?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Tulsky has nothing to do with Keith Jones, he is similar to Briere in that he's an unknown. So was Sakic. Until he does it, he's a gamble.
If he was such a sure thing, teams would be beating down his door to hire him, teams have hired enough players out of LF that his resume would get action.

My point on Waddell is past isn't necessarily the future, imagine the outrage had the Flyers hired him off his meh career.
Hard to predict who'll succeed, whether an outlier candidate or an experienced retread.

As far as winning without a top pick, it's hard to win period. Teams with top picks generally sucked for an extended period and have multiple top 5 and top 10 picks, Edmonton blew (2) #1s before they hit the jackpot with McDavid and still haven't got the SC Finals.
NJ may develop into a contender, or they may be the next Toronto, tease but no please.

You can try to tank, but Arizona still couldn't get close to the bottom three, and they worked as hard to tank as any team in the NHL the last two seasons (partially b/c they're broke as much as a strategy). The lottery makes that strategy far less certain.

Makes more sense to me to use try to get younger, add assets, if you have a bad season you tank by accident, if you do well it's because young players emerge - if enough emerge you have the assets to go out and get top players like Vegas trading for Stone and Eichel. If you strip all your assets, and don't end up with a franchise player - then what? Rinse and repeat for 3-4 years until you get lucky, then wait another five years to build a team around that player?

Tulsky could and should have been looked at for the President of Hockey Operations position.

That’s the whole point. Looking for a PR dunce to fill that position is terrible process.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The purpose of the position itself is now fundamentally stupid.

 

[deadhead]

Tulsky could and should have been looked at for the President of Hockey Operations position.

That’s the whole point. Looking for a PR dunce to fill that position is terrible process.

I doubt Tulsky would have been interested if he wasn't granted full control. And that wasn't going to happen. But you never know.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

The purpose of the position itself is now fundamentally stupid.

its now just a sounding board for the old bois club..

when they want something spread they have the perfect megaphone..

its f***ing sad.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I doubt Tulsky would have been interested if he wasn't granted full control. And that wasn't going to happen. But you never know.

A lot of people weren't interested because the power structure is blatantly stupid.

Is having a blatantly stupid power arrangement good management?

 

[LegionOfGloom]

Tulsky could and should have been looked at for the President of Hockey Operations position.

That’s the whole point. Looking for a PR dunce to fill that position is terrible process.

Tulsky should have been GM and Briere the POHO.

I mean think of how they've defined the position. PR-facing and someone who can bridge hockey operations and the business side. That's literally Briere having come up initially through the business side, going to Wharton, etc.

 

[BillDineen]

Net-net this only seems like replacing communications with fans rather than the front office that was needed. Chuck out Jones in and a "fan" in Hilferty in and Scott out.

We know Jonesey likes Risto and liked the TDA move. There is no reason to think Briere thinks any differently. He seems to be going with Flahr rather than just waiting until the draft to fire him. All of the same pro and amateur scouts seem likely to remain as well, on top of dev coaches and Lappy.

The morons in the media just lap it up as something new instead of challenging them on real changes.

Authentic fans seem to have lapped it up as well. Sad really.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

I love Seravalli

If Tortorella really is the 2nd most powerful coach in the NHL, we're f***ing doomed.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I love Seravalli

If Tortorella really is the 2nd most powerful coach in the NHL, we're f***ing doomed.

I'm surprised he isn't the most powerful

 

[deadhead]

I have no problem with Torts working closely with Briere.

I look at the teams that advanced in the playoffs and they play a lot like the team Torts would want, aggressive forecheck, low to high cycling, D-men attacking the O-zone, responsible defensively, everyone back checks. Lot's of dirty goals. The most talented offensive teams are sitting on their sofas, watching the Conference Finals.

I have no problem bringing back the "Flyers way" as long as it's updated for the 2020s: no goons, no big slow bois. Fast forwards and a mobile D-man on each pair who can carry the puck through the neutral zone. You can still be effective playing physical, as long as that means a fast, aggressive forecheck, winning board battles at both ends, going to the dirty area in front of the net, and so on. If you can't land an offensive superstar, build depth and players who can set up "dirty" goals - whether a goal comes from crisp passes from highly skilled players or from crashing the net and popping in a rebound, they count the same.

 

[Lindberg]

I'm surprised he isn't the most powerful

It's wild to think Tortorella is powerful while a guy like Jon Cooper doesn't have that same kind of influence. The past 5 years for the Lightning have been a massive amount of success, sure they've got talent but they've really done a lot with it.

I'd be interested to see what Jon Cooper could do if the roles were reversed and he had influence.

 

[deadhead]

It's wild to think Tortorella is powerful while a guy like Jon Cooper doesn't have that same kind of influence. The past 5 years for the Lightning have been a massive amount of success, sure they've got talent but they've really done a lot with it.

I'd be interested to see what Jon Cooper could do if the roles were reversed and he had influence.

You don't think Cooper has that kind of influence?
Cooper's been HC since the 2012-13 season.
Brisbois has been running the show since 2018. He originally hired Cooper for their AHL team, so the two have been working together for over a decade.

Yzerman was named as a vice president and alternate governor of the Red Wings in September 2006. In May 2010, he left the Red Wings organization to become general manager of the Tampa Bay Lightning, serving in that capacity until September 2018. On April 19, 2019, Yzerman was named the general manager of the Red Wings.

Note Yzerman went from the ice to VP in Detroit with zero management experience. 3 years later, he takes over TB.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You don't think Cooper has that kind of influence?
Cooper's been HC since the 2012-13 season.
Brisbois has been running the show since 2018. He originally hired Cooper for their AHL team, so the two have been working together for over a decade.

Yzerman was named as a vice president and alternate governor of the Red Wings in September 2006. In May 2010, he left the Red Wings organization to become general manager of the Tampa Bay Lightning, serving in that capacity until September 2018. On April 19, 2019, Yzerman was named the general manager of the Red Wings.

Note Yzerman went from the ice to VP in Detroit with zero management experience. 3 years later, he takes over TB.

Yes, it's safe to say TB isn't actively building around Cooper and making him the face of the franchise.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

"the right way."

Keep throwing out those buzzwords, people.