Boston Bruins 2023-24 Roster and Salary Cap Discussion V

[NDiesel]

It seems like some are never going to be satisfied, because I clearly remember the same posts and arguments happening when we had Chara, McQuaid, and Miller (injuries aside) all getting regular minutes on the back end. Then. it was the forward group is soft, and Krug and Gryz are smurfs and we can't have that.

I agree about never being satisifed, as we now look back fondly on those d corps, I distinctly remember complaints as well about the lack of puck moving on the D and their lack of ability to handle skilled/speedy teams after some tough playoff losses.

I think in a way we are all asking for more balance on these teams, but never seem to agree on when that balance is achieved.

 

[GordonHowe]

All season Pasta has been getting run, McAvoy was abused by the Panthers, Ullmark and Swayman have been getting run, Poitras gets crosschecked in the face, Frederic get chopped in the head and NO ONE responds, NO ONE. They don't need a tough guy, they need a total makeover in taking care of their teammates.

Minimum is one tough D to replace Shattenkirk, Mitchell or Grizz, they can replace all of them as far as I am concerned, they need at least two forwards that hit, you can start by replacing Steen and Heinen.

As much as they need a number one center they need to grow some spine and not just pushback (that would be a start) but initiate. .

And they don't initiate. They barely retaliate.

 

[Dr Hook]

They never offered Krug a contract and try to knock Gryz down the pecking order every trade deadline so they obviously agree to some extent the road to winning a cup isn't through a smallish defense.

That misses the point. The point was that when we had big physical d men, there was still something to complain about in that department. It never ends.

 

[NeelyDan]

I’d like to try and understand better the perspective “across the aisle” if you will - do you guys want more hammer than nail quality, but simply prioritize other elements more - or do you simply not care about the idea of being bullied?

I tried to word this in a non-confrontational way, so please understand that’s my going in perspective

 

[UncleRico]

this was all by design. You're too hyper focused on their average age this year and ignoring the big picture. Yes they added a bunch of older guys, but they added them all on 1 year, low risk deals that can be buried. Lucic not being in the lineup isn't luck, it's by design. Obviously they didn't expect him to go out like he did, but guys like Brown, Lucic, JVR and Shattenkirk were signed to be insurance policies in case any of the kids weren't ready, but without the dollar commitment to prevent any of the kids from taking their spot.

We're seeing that play out with Brown and Shattenkirk. Brown has been relegated to a spare part & Shattenkirk has seen repeated scratches in favor of the younger Mitchell. The team's average age going up slightly doesn't contradict Sweeney's comments about "building" around younger guys. "Building" is something you do long-term. They are actively working the youngsters into the lineup, something that is going to have impacts on their core makeup for years to come. They are building a younger core by investing into those young players. The older guys are just there as temporary solutions in clearly transitional roles. I'd be surprised if any of those guys are here next season, so I don't think it's fair to count them against the idea of building a younger core, because they are not part of the actual core.

Also, you have to consider usage. It's overly simplistic to just get hung up on average age when so many of those older guys are in fringe roles. Lucic & Brown are 4th liners. Shattenkirk is your 6th/7th D. JVR is a middle 6 winger. They replaced guys in Bergeron & Krejci who were playing big top 6 minutes. with guys like Poitras playing often at 19, Beecher playing key roles on the 4th line and the PK and guys like Zacha and JDB getting minutes that previously would have gone to Bergeron & Hall I think they've gotten practically younger for sure. Like I bet if you did an analysis of their average age but weighted it by minutes played then they've absolutely made good on their promise to get younger.

Im not even sure if you do that on a usage basis if that’s true. It’s certainly close.

None of the guys you mentioned that are young and playing are close to the top of the roster in minutes played. So their impact is minimal to why you are suggesting. Only poitras is in the top 15 of minutes played for what you just claimed

I mean there’s what 12-15 players left over from the roster last year that are all now a year older too. Coyle is bringing up that average age with minutes, JVR is, Marchand even more so now.

But even more important will you answer the question as to whether you and @marchyknowsbest are the same person? The only time I ever hear from either of you is when you both are commenting on the same posts at the same time.

It’s beyond coincidental at this point that the only time I hear from either of you, you both are chiming in at the same time.

 

[NDiesel]

I’d like to try and understand better the perspective “across the aisle” if you will - do you guys want more hammer than nail quality, but simply prioritize other elements more - or do you simply not care about the idea of being bullied?

I tried to word this in a non-confrontational way, so please understand that’s my going in perspective

I'm not sure you can consider me firmly "across the aisle" as I do believe they need to add some more physicality, but I'm not interested in it doing so if it means adding someone who can barely play a regular shift without being a liability like McEwan. Gimme Crouse or Zadarov sure, not Reaves or McEwan.

I also tend to believe this is just not the style of game they are built for, and I think it would take more than a couple moves to change that. Play to your strengths which is defensive play and goaltending.

 

[Hookslide]

First it’s literally insane to suggest Kane after whatever is happening with Lucic. I can’t even process that line of thinking.



Second - I think our center play has been more than adequate and our issues reside with the wingers. Starting with Marchand not fitting with Zacha/Pasta and Jake’s extended cold streak, we’ve had a lot of square peg round hole situations in the top 9. And even though the Coyle line has been our most consistent, that problem even extends there. If that’s the only place JVR can be effective, it hamstrings our lineup going forward even if the production has been good.



Also and I love Heinen- but that dude cannot play another game as a regular in the top 9. I’d much rather try Merkulov or Lysell or explore options outside the org. Heinen is so responsible and he finds great spots to be in so often …but his stick is allergic to scoring goals and just can’t be a fixture for this team.



Lastly - I need a few more games before I ditch anyone on D. We are good. Yeah we struggled at the end of the Lohrei experience because he literally doesn’t understand positioning and yeah Gryz looked rough but they’ve been too consistently effective for 17 games to panic after 2-3.

I do not need anymore games to realize this D needs help, have been saying it all year. Shattenkirk,was a cheap sign and I understand ,why, Gryz is Gryz and we all know how that is going to end, not impressed with Mitchell, Forbort is a 6 th dand that is fine with me. Merkulov and Lysell , are not ready for prime time, and I do not believe adding more younger undersized prospects at this time should be in the cards. JVR, I put in the same category as Shaetnkirk, cheap , "lets take a shot signings . I think Marchand gives you everything he has out there, but I think we are not seeing what he once was, with that said he is still better than most in the league.I agree Coyle, and Zacha have stepped and are certainly not a problem with their play.

 

[NeelyDan]

I'm not sure you can consider me firmly "across the aisle" as I do believe they need to add some more physicality, but I'm not interested in it doing so if it means adding someone who can barely play a regular shift without being a liability like McEwan. Gimme Crouse or Zadarov sure, not Reaves or McEwan.

I also tend to believe this is just not the style of game they are built for, and I think it would take more than a couple moves to change that. Play to your strengths which is defensive play and goaltending.

I steadfastly agree with all of what you say here, including the focus on their aggregate makeup and how that (doesn’t currently) align with what’s being asked for by some fans

 

[NDiesel]

I steadfastly agree with all of what you say here, including the focus on their aggregate makeup and how that (doesn’t currently) align with what’s being asked for by some fans

Exactly - it's a tall task to ask them to go out and acquire 3 or 4 guys to change the makeup of this team...that being said, and somewhat contradictory to me saying one move isnt going to change them, I think the hope was that Lucic being here would be infectious and his physicality would trickle through the lineup, and I think it would have worked, but most guys aren't lucic.

 

[GordonHowe]

One cup in 50 years also is the same time Jacobs has owned the team. Fans post lock out wouldn't remember the Sinden/Jacobs years when the Bruins were run like the Montreal Expos. That had much more to due with lack of playoff success than being tough.

I do agree you need a mix, I have said that for years. For myself as somebody who played for a long time, be it high school, men's leagues, whatever, it is infuriating to watch the team you root for get pushed around night after night, I never played on a team that would have allowed the liberties taken to the Bruins this year to have gone without a response.

The argument some make for bringing in a minimally talented replacement for Lucic isn't very valid, I cannot think of a player today who is physical that can't at least keep up with the play and be defensively responsible. I would replace Heinen, Steen or Geekie with a Luke Kunin, Cole Smith, Brendan Duhaime or Pat Maroon. Besides adding a player or two like that it would hopefully change the turn the other cheek mentality the team has developed

In that regard, any team or institution reflects the strengths and weaknesses of those at the top.

Yes the Bruins are bigger this season but they are not especially physical.

Sweeney brought back Milan, which was a step in the right direction. Even so, one player cannot police the entire opposition or magically instill team toughness. It doesn't work that way.

So, here we are again. A fish rots from the head.

 

[Hookslide]

The average age of the team increased still. They did not get younger. For each young player a 35+ year old was signed.



Current lineup so I’m assuming this is without lucic.

LeftWingHockey has them at 28.0 last year and 28.2 this year. Assuming that’s based off day 1 starting rosters.

But yea they lost bergy, krejci and hall, but added lucic, jvr and shattenkirk. So I’m assuming they aren’t counting lucic anymore, but the original construction of the roster was older.

The older Vets that were signed are short term contracts, they have really made a effort to bring in some young kids and are letting them play, that is a direction to go, you cannot just bring in a bunch of kids and let them go. Next year it will look better age wise.

 

[GordonHowe]

I agree about never being satisifed, as we now look back fondly on those d corps, I distinctly remember complaints as well about the lack of puck moving on the D and their lack of ability to handle skilled/speedy teams after some tough playoff losses.

I think in a way we are all asking for more balance on these teams, but never seem to agree on when that balance is achieved.

True.

 

[GordonHowe]

That misses the point. The point was that when we had big physical d men, there was still something to complain about in that department. It never ends.

True. Fan is short for fanatic after all.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

Tanner Jeannot - who is the absolute embodiment of what many people here want - cost a first, second, third, fourth, and fifth plus Cal Foote to acquire. The Bolts only have him signed through next year despite giving that up.

He has 12 points in 41 games for the Lightning.

 

[NDiesel]

Tanner Jeannot - who is the absolute embodiment of what many people here want - cost a first, second, third, fourth, and fifth plus Cal Foote to acquire. The Bolts only have him signed through next year despite giving that up.

He has 12 points in 41 games for the Lightning.

Massive overpayment by them for toughness, doesnt mean every guy is going to cost that much, but what if you could build a trade around Crouse and Debrusk? Adds size in the top 6 who can actually contribute outside of physicality

 

[Carl Hungus]

I'm also on board with adding some grit IF they can play. That's tough to come by and takes time to integrate, but should be prioritized. Having a less skilled but mean 7D would also be fine with me for certain situations, cap permitting.

But I think that some of this has to be coming from the team culture/management style. We've pointed to guys like Hathaway showing up in the lockerroom and becoming fairly passive, only to revert back to their old ways after leaving. Frederic entered the league willing to fight anybody and making that well known, now he won't do anything after getting a baseball swing to the side of the head. Adding 1 or 2 hitters may not even result in more "hammering" if they change their play style when they walk through that door. Maybe it's a mandate to not respond for the sake of penalties, to 'not play their game', or whatever. What's frustrating is that they end up taking a ton of penalties anyways.

They have guys who are big enough on paper to lay more hits, but I consistently see them pass up opportunities to lay people out, where other teams (Tampa) would make the hit every time. I think their focus is on something other than a forechecking game. Whether that's for better or worse is up for debate; an example I mentioned is Frederic. He isn't physical most of the time now but he's scoring more points- so there may be a tradeoff. I'm not sure. but I acknowledge that it's worked well for regular season games.

 

[Root]

In that regard, any team or institution reflects the strengths and weaknesses of those at the top.

Yes the Bruins are bigger this season but they are not especially physical.

Sweeney brought back Milan, which was a step in the right direction. Even so, one player cannot police the entire opposition or magically instill team toughness. It doesn't work that way.

So, here we are again. A fish rots from the head.

Lucic would've helped a lot for sure. That cliché about the entire team playing an inch or two bigger when they have a feared tough guy in the lineup is tired but I do think it would've been the case with this team. Especially since he is still a good enough player to actually contribute regularly in a 4th line role.

That being said I fully expect Sweeney to address it and I think he will. I've really liked Sweeney's additions to the team the last two trade deadlines and It's blatantly obvious that they need to address this issue. He'll do it but it'll probably take some time. He's not going to bring in a scrub for the sake of it.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

Massive overpayment by them for toughness, doesnt mean every guy is going to cost that much, but what if you could build a trade around Crouse and Debrusk? Adds size in the top 6 who can actually contribute outside of physicality

Why would Arizona trade him? They’re in the playoff hunt and they have him locked up for 3 more years after this at a good number.

 

[NDiesel]

Why would Arizona trade him? They’re in the playoff hunt and they have him locked up for 3 more years after this at a good number.

Because Debrusk is probably the superior player overall, thus helping give them a better chance to reach the playoffs...of course I doubt they consider it without some contract talk with Debrusk beforehand.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

Because Debrusk is probably the superior player overall, thus helping give them a better chance to reach the playoffs...of course I doubt they consider it without some contract talk with Debrusk beforehand.

I mean I guess. Why are we trading away the superior player though? That’s what I don’t want to do.

 

[NDiesel]

I mean I guess. Why are we trading away the superior player though? That’s what I don’t want to do.

To better balance the skillset of the top 9. We take a small loss in skill to gain some size, they take a loss in size to gain some skill.

We get a guy signed to a nice contract for 3 years, while not having to pay Debrusk a raise, giving even more cap flexibility next year. We also get a guy that is a couple years younger.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

To better balance the skillset of the top 9. We take a small loss in skill to gain some size, they take a loss in size to gain some skill.

We get a guy signed to a nice contract for 3 years, while not having to pay Debrusk a raise, giving even more cap flexibility next year. We also get a guy that is a couple years younger.

Leaving aside whether Jake would actually want to sign up long term with that clown franchise, making that trade makes the Bruins worse. And I don’t do that to chase some concept of more grit or something.

 

[UncleRico]

The older Vets that were signed are short term contracts, they have really made a effort to bring in some young kids and are letting them play, that is a direction to go, you cannot just bring in a bunch of kids and let them go. Next year it will look better age wise.

Ok that’s next year we are talking about this year. It should have started last offseason with making moves for younger players to surround the core with.

Like I said it’s worked out so far especially with JVR. But based solely off what Sweeney said the plan for the offseason was, they got older as a team not younger for the 2023-2024 season.

 

[NDiesel]

Leaving aside whether Jake would actually want to sign up long term with that clown franchise, making that trade makes the Bruins worse. And I don’t do that to chase some concept of more grit or something.

Sure it makes them worse today, but there is more consideration to trades than just who wins it in the moment.

What if Debrusk is asking for a 7 year extension? Are you willing to commit to him until he's 33, vs Crouse until he's 30? Or Debrusk at 6 mil vs Crouse at 4.3? What can that extra money help you do elsewhere?

While the size gain and skill loss happen today, you potentially set yourself up better for next year and on.

 

[Sheppy]

Tanner Jeannot - who is the absolute embodiment of what many people here want - cost a first, second, third, fourth, and fifth plus Cal Foote to acquire. The Bolts only have him signed through next year despite giving that up.

He has 12 points in 41 games for the Lightning.

This was an absolute disaster to be honest.

I don't mind the player, but yeah, the overpayment was absolute insanity here.