Boston Bruins 2023-24 Roster and Salary Cap Discussion IX

[22Brad Park]

How tough were the Avs that beat Tampa in 2022?

Bruins don't have Nathan Mackinnons now

 

[Son of Donegal]

I think it is a pure eye test, but from watching whole games all season not just highlights. My biggest problem with analytics is they do not have any positive score for "toughness" or push back. They do not look at hits (which is purely based on the objectivity of an off ice official that varies from rink to rink) as a positive stat.

When your goalies have to defend themselves, when your best players are being targeted with no response, when your young players are targeted, when players allow themselves to be pushed out of scrums without response, when you take the borderline hit or slash in a 5-0 game to get the power play instead of responding physically, all that is how I would measure toughness, on top of basics like taking a hit to make a play, going to the net, winning puck battles, screening. This team lacks almost all of these qualities.


Lucic and Greer would have made a huge difference. Lucic's off ice stupidity has been a huge disappointment. I disagree that a good portion of this is not on Sweeney, not all but a good portion.

Brian Burke is from Harvard and I would still take him as GM.

I'd like to hear more about the bolded.

IMO, Sweeney has signed/added loads of players to bolster toughness, edge and character over the years and the results just haven't been there.

Look at who has won the cup over the past 10 years. With the exception of STL, these are teams that have been, by and large, the beneficiaries of multiple high end draft picks after years of tanking. The Bruins haven't drafted in the top 10 since 2011! When players like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Hedman, McKinnon, Makar, Rantanen, etc...fall from the sky, it makes it just a little bit easier to win multiple cups.

You may not like this team or this GM....but the Bruins continue to achieve, to the bewilderment of experts across the league. Dozens of other fansbases would trade places with us in a heartbeat.

I agree with your assessment on what "toughness" is and that this team lacks it right now. Even if Sweeney goes out an snags a guy like Duhaime or someone else...it's largely up the current players on the roster to show some resolve.

Brian Burke is a likeable, throwback dude....but let's face it, he has made some terrible, terrible decisions over the years and the teams he work for tend to fail horribly.

 

[Fenian24]

I think the bolded part above is exactly the problem then. We all have different "eye tests", and while I agree with you that this team could use a little more spine, what exactly we should do about it, and whether or not it will solve the problem, is the hard part, especially in a cap environment where you need to construct a balanced roster.

I think 90% of this board and the fan base in general would agree that we need balance to win. My problem is they do not have it. In terms of how to fix it Tanner Jeannot, Cole Smith, Mathieu Olivier, Kiefer Sherwood, Arber Xhekaj were all unsigned free agents so you can look to players coming out of college and overage juniors who were not signed. Next you prioritize tougher players in the later rounds of the draft and if you have two similar skill set players you take the more physical. Look to move out some softer players to teams that have skilled physical players but may need a more skilled forward or smaller puck moving D. Use free agency more efficiently to sign physical, gritty players.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bruins don't have Nathan Mackinnons now

Correct.

More than one way to win a Cup.

But I would defenitely put talent ahead of toughness.

Tampa was tough, but they also had (and still have) Kucherov, Stamkos, Point, Hedman and Vasilevskiy. All possible Hall of Famers in their prime.

Current Bruins team doesn't have the toughness or the talent. What they do have is goaltending and a system that works. They'd need a lot of breaks to get to the finals.

 

[RoccoF14]

Brian Burke is a likeable, throwback dude....but let's face it, he has made some terrible, terrible decisions over the years and the teams he work for tend to fail horribly.

Yeah, I think Burke is past his due date, but I gotta admit I love it whenever he's interviewed. That guy says exactly what he thinks, and I find it refreshing.

But yeah, other than that 2005-07 Anaheim team (which was an absolute BEAST of a roster) coming out of the lockout, he's been pretty marginal as a GM.

 

[PB37]

Correct.

More than one way to win a Cup.

But I would defenitely put talent ahead of toughness.

Tampa was tough, but they also had (and still have) Kucherov, Stamkos, Point, Hedman and Vasilevskiy. All possible Hall of Famers in their prime.

Current Bruins team doesn't have the toughness or the talent. What they do have is goaltending and a system that works. They'd need a lot of breaks to get to the finals.

And let's face it, as much as we all love to romanticize the toughness of the 2011 team, they needed historic level goaltending to overcome their shortcomings and win it all. That's not something any team can hope to depend on when the playoffs come around.

 

[Number8]

IIRC the Bruins had a lot of hits vs Calgary (according to whoever does the counts) at TD Garden when they were playing just terrible hockey. Those hits counts seem to be subjective IMO. I know that a lot of the time the team who
has less possession will get more hits but again IIRC it at the halfway point. I thought it was odd nonetheless.

I wouldn't put much stock in the NHL hits tally.

Just within last week or so, the NHL released an entirely new set of data for this season's numbers (at least) based on an independent audit/review.

Hit totals went up by about 20% after the review. The NHL was careful to state that there were no change in classification or "rules" regarding what a hit is, was, or will be. All the same.

So, one group counts it 20% higher than the other, or one group counts it 20% lower than the other.

Pick your poison. Either the NHL guys are lousy at the job or the audit guys are lousy at their job - or maybe both.

 

[KnightofBoston]

And let's face it, as much as we all love to romanticize the toughness of the 2011 team, they needed historic level goaltending to overcome their shortcomings and win it all. That's not something any team can hope to depend on when the playoffs come around.

Yes and no

It was a team effort no matter how you look at it,most cup team’s needs historic level goal tending at some point. Thomas also played only ok in some of those games and was bailed out by guys like Ryder of all people when he put himself out of position. One of thomas’ best games was 2nd against Philly because it basically took away all their Hope and then bruins crushed them next two games. Bruins offense had to come through against tampa several times, especially early in the series. Game 3 was a complete team effort, one of those most complete road games I ever saw, and game 7 thomas was excellent but so was rest of the team.


Thomas best games were probably ;

Game 2 against Philly
Game 5 against Tampa
Game 5 against Montreal
Game 7 Montreal
Game 3 Tampa


That would be my top 5 and I don’t feel like I remember enough and or the bruins offense made it overwhelming for the other team that thomas could have put in a middling performance they would have won still

 

[Gordoff]

Yeah, I think Burke is past his due date, but I gotta admit I love it whenever he's interviewed. That guy says exactly what he thinks, and I find it refreshing.

But yeah, other than that 2005-07 Anaheim team (which was an absolute BEAST of a roster) coming out of the lockout, he's been pretty marginal as a GM.

Edit: To add to what Fenian said in post 705...

"I think 90% of this board and the fan base in general would agree that we need balance to win. My problem is they do not have it. In terms of how to fix it Tanner Jeannot, Cole Smith, Mathieu Olivier, Kiefer Sherwood, Arber Xhekaj were all unsigned free agents so you can look to players coming out of college and overage juniors who were not signed. Next you prioritize tougher players in the later rounds of the draft and if you have two similar skill set players you take the more physical. Look to move out some softer players to teams that have skilled physical players but may need a more skilled forward or smaller puck moving D. Use free agency more efficiently to sign physical, gritty players."



Seems that if a consultant to the scouting department were a position, and the job focus for that consultant (we'll call him Bryan Bourq) were to be added simply to identify/locate the toughness/sandpaper attribute in players that would be later round picks or non-drafted players it would add to the current set up of the scouting department, or would it, l don't know. Usually the later round picks are almost throw aways and long shots anyway so why not add that dimension?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yeah, I think Burke is past his due date, but I gotta admit I love it whenever he's interviewed. That guy says exactly what he thinks, and I find it refreshing.

But yeah, other than that 2005-07 Anaheim team (which was an absolute BEAST of a roster) coming out of the lockout, he's been pretty marginal as a GM.

Advocating for a Brian Burke is simply advocating for entertainment value. Which is fine.

I wouldn't mind listening to GM Burke's take on all things Bruins. And I would enjoy watching a more belligerent Bruins team. But I think his team would also be a lot less successful.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yes and no

It was a team effort no matter how you look at it,most cup team’s needs historic level goal tending at some point. Thomas also played only ok in some of those games and was bailed out by guys like Ryder of all people when he put himself out of position. One of thomas’ best games was 2nd against Philly because it basically took away all their Hope and then bruins crushed them next two games. Bruins offense had to come through against tampa several times, especially early in the series. Game 3 was a complete team effort, one of those most complete road games I ever saw, and game 7 thomas was excellent but so was rest of the team.


Thomas best games were probably ;

Game 2 against Philly
Game 5 against Tampa
Game 5 against Montreal
Game 7 Montreal
Game 3 Tampa


That would be my top 5 and I don’t feel like I remember enough and or the bruins offense made it overwhelming for the other team that thomas could have put in a middling performance they would have won still

Game 7 shutout (1-0) of Tampa probably should be on there.

 

[Number8]

So how do you measure "toughness" on a roster? Short of people's "eye test" and opinion, what exactly is the measure you, me, or any NHL GM should use to determine whether or not a player/roster is tough enough?

Not trying to turn this into an analytics thing (I'm not a fan), however there has to be SOME way to determine whether your roster is tough enough, that's better than watching the NHL highlights and forming an opinion?

Eye test and interpretation of how players are wired tells you what you need.

When I was a kid in school, you knew who was tough and who wasn't without analyzing fights or trying to assess people's demeanor or presence. You just knew. Everyone did.

Same exact thing for for sports. You inherently knew when you were in for a rough, physical game and when you were not. Both by knowledge of a given team (played them before), sizing up their presence before the game (for teams you'd not played before), and most certainly within the first few minutes of a given game.

 

[jgatie]

Eye test and interpretation of how players are wired tells you what you need.

When I was a kid in school, you knew who was tough and who wasn't without analyzing fights or trying to assess people's demeanor or presence. You just knew. Everyone did.

Same exact thing for for sports. You inherently knew when you were in for a rough, physical game and when you were not. Both by knowledge of a given team (played them before), sizing up their presence before the game (for teams you'd not played before), and most certainly within the first few minutes of a given game.

Exactly. If you can't look at 2011, and then 2019 or the current team and realize in the first 2 minutes of a game which team is the hammer and which is the nail, I don't know what to say. It's obvious. In 2011, Lucic slapped down Burrows, Ference ridiculed a Sedin for flopping, Thomas decked another one and Billy Smith'd Burrows in the crease. In 2019, Maroon taunted our bench and nobody did shit.

 

[sarge88]

Don't get me wrong, I don't like that 4th line whatsover and i see the need for toughness. I just thought it was funny that Fenian (and Bs fan in general) chirp the Canadiens as divers/soft and consider the Bruins a tough franchise, but it's never really meant more success to be the toughest team, yet we yearn for it.

I think any fan could agree though that a good balance of everything is really the way to go. We really just argue and disagree over what the best balance is.

I will say that I don’t think the 2011 team wins the cup if they were 20% “less tough”.

I know it’s not quantifiable and they may have been a rare (or only) example of this, but I really believe it’s true.

I think, to a degree they bullied their way to the cup, particularly vs. Vancouver.

 

[Son of Donegal]

I think 90% of this board and the fan base in general would agree that we need balance to win. My problem is they do not have it. In terms of how to fix it Tanner Jeannot, Cole Smith, Mathieu Olivier, Kiefer Sherwood, Arber Xhekaj were all unsigned free agents so you can look to players coming out of college and overage juniors who were not signed. Next you prioritize tougher players in the later rounds of the draft and if you have two similar skill set players you take the more physical. Look to move out some softer players to teams that have skilled physical players but may need a more skilled forward or smaller puck moving D. Use free agency more efficiently to sign physical, gritty players.

I would say more than 90% would agree. I agree with you as well. But you make "achieving" that balance sound a lot easier than it is. Very few NCAA/CHL free agents turn into impact players. Sweeney has done an above average job identifying NHL talent in that markt. Krug, Acciari and Vatrano are all better than the players you mentioned. The careers of Kuhlman, Ahcan and McLaughlin are a more likely outcomes for those sorts of acquisitions. Likewise, finding NHL level talent in rounds 5-7 is total crapshoot. Maybe 6 players have amounted to anything since 2016. As for moving roster players, aside from Grzelcyk, who do you have in mind? Heinen?

 

[Over the volcano]

Exactly. If you can't look at 2011, and then 2019 or the current team and realize in the first 2 minutes of a game which team is the hammer and which is the nail, I don't know what to say. It's obvious. In 2011, Lucic slapped down Burrows, Ference ridiculed a Sedin for flopping, Thomas decked another one and Billy Smith'd Burrows in the crease. In 2019, Maroon taunted our bench and nobody did shit.

Look at the first two games of the 2011 finals...

 

[Sheppy]

Look at the first two games of the 2011 finals...

Look at the last two. The clinching games.

 

[jgatie]

Look at the first two games of the 2011 finals...

What about them? Two games out of 25 don’t mean squat.

Look at the last two. The clinching games.

Exactly. That team could play any way they wanted. The dumbest mistake the Canucks made was their fake tough guys trying to play the tough game against real tough guys.

 

[TD Charlie]

Exactly. If you can't look at 2011, and then 2019 or the current team and realize in the first 2 minutes of a game which team is the hammer and which is the nail, I don't know what to say. It's obvious. In 2011, Lucic slapped down Burrows, Ference ridiculed a Sedin for flopping, Thomas decked another one and Billy Smith'd Burrows in the crease. In 2019, Maroon taunted our bench and nobody did shit.

It adds up, and sometimes it adds up VERY quickly. In the Cup Final, as soon as the Vancouver defensemen had to turn and chase a puck behind Luongo they were consistently bailing on the puck. It was pathetic. Not even a matter of them not being able to get there before a Bruins forechecker, they just flat out refused to do it with any regularity.

Sometimes attitude is everything. In 2011 they had it, in 2019 they did not, and I believe 100 percent that it made the difference in both series.

Look at the first two games of the 2011 finals...

Nobody wins a cup in game 2.

 

[Over the volcano]

What about them? Two games out of 25 don’t mean squat.



Exactly. That team could play any way they wanted. The dumbest mistake the Canucks made was their fake tough guys trying to play the tough game against real tough guys.

100% hindsight

It adds up, and sometimes it adds up VERY quickly. In the Cup Final, as soon as the Vancouver defensemen had to turn and chase a puck behind Luongo they were consistently bailing on the puck. It was pathetic. Not even a matter of them not being able to get there before a Bruins forechecker, they just flat out refused to do it with any regularity.

Sometimes attitude is everything. In 2011 they had it, in 2019 they did not, and I believe 100 percent that it made the difference in both series.


Nobody wins a cup in game 2.

Jgate was just writing how he could tell in the first 2 minutes let alone two games. It's waaaay to easy to make claims after the fact. Particularly after such a dramatic comeback as they had in 2011

 

[jgatie]

100% hindsight

Jgate was just writing how he could tell in the first 2 minutes let alone two games.

You misunderstood, and are equating analysis of a single game with analysis of a series. Regardless, if you think the first two games of 2011 was a trend for the Bruins over the entire playoffs, you are hopelessly mired in your agenda.

 

[TD Charlie]

100% hindsight


Jgate was just writing how he could tell in the first 2 minutes let alone two games. It's waaaay to easy to make claims after the fact. Particularly after such a dramatic comeback as they had in 2011

I'm not gonna say that I knew after 2 minutes, but I wasn't concerned after going down 0-2, nor 3-2. Truthfully, I was more confident in a Cup win heading into game 6 2011 than any other time in my Bruins fandom. Vancouver had crazy skill but even at 0-2 they felt like they'd lay down and take it if Boston pushed them around some more.

 

[Over the volcano]

I'm not gonna say that I knew after 2 minutes, but I wasn't concerned after going down 0-2, nor 3-2. Truthfully, I was more confident in a Cup win heading into game 6 2011 than any other time in my Bruins fandom. Vancouver had crazy skill but even at 0-2 they felt like they'd lay down and take it if Boston pushed them around some more.

sure

The hit on Horton changed that series.

It was only after taking that cheap shot, and being bitten, and being mocked that they turned it around.

 

[PB37]

Yes and no

It was a team effort no matter how you look at it,most cup team’s needs historic level goal tending at some point. Thomas also played only ok in some of those games and was bailed out by guys like Ryder of all people when he put himself out of position. One of thomas’ best games was 2nd against Philly because it basically took away all their Hope and then bruins crushed them next two games. Bruins offense had to come through against tampa several times, especially early in the series. Game 3 was a complete team effort, one of those most complete road games I ever saw, and game 7 thomas was excellent but so was rest of the team.


Thomas best games were probably ;

Game 2 against Philly
Game 5 against Tampa
Game 5 against Montreal
Game 7 Montreal
Game 3 Tampa


That would be my top 5 and I don’t feel like I remember enough and or the bruins offense made it overwhelming for the other team that thomas could have put in a middling performance they would have won still

Teams need a lot of components going right in order to win. There's no magic formula. Do the Bruins make it out of the 1st round without Thomas playing out of his mind during key situations? There was a lot of talk about Claude being fired if they got bounced and how the dynamic of the team needed to change if they couldn't even beat the Canadians after they went down in the series 0-2.

Bottom line to me is if Thomas doesn't play like he did, they don't win the Cup or even get out of the first round. His performance was the biggest reason why we get to immortalize that team and not the 2012 and 14 teams that are looked on as chokes despite having the same style and same toughness of players.

 

[Fenian24]

I would say more than 90% would agree. I agree with you as well. But you make "achieving" that balance sound a lot easier than it is. Very few NCAA/CHL free agents turn into impact players. Sweeney has done an above average job identifying NHL talent in that markt. Krug, Acciari and Vatrano are all better than the players you mentioned. The careers of Kuhlman, Ahcan and McLaughlin are a more likely outcomes for those sorts of acquisitions. Likewise, finding NHL level talent in rounds 5-7 is total crapshoot. Maybe 6 players have amounted to anything since 2016. As for moving roster players, aside from Grzelcyk, who do you have in mind? Heinen?

Grizz would be my first, DeBrusk for the right deal, Carlo as well but I think Carlo is an excellent stay at home D just wish he had a bit of a mean streak, the whole fourth line can go.
I think you need to commit to getting grittier and tougher over smaller and more skilled. Again you need a mix but they have ignored the physical, leadership driven players for the Kuhlmans and Steens of the world.