2023-24 Frank J. Selke Trophy finalists: Aleksander Barkov, Auston Matthews, Jordan Staal | Winner: Aleksander Barkov

[Old Boys Club]

Toronto media couldn't push the 'Matthews for Hart' narrative enough to catch on, so they revert to the 'Matthews for Selke' narrative that's been an ongoing psyop since ~2020.

Not saying he's bad defensively, just that he's not a Selke level guy.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Has there ever been a Selke trophy finalist who wasn't in the top five in PK TOI (among forwards) on his own team? I'm struggling to find even one example.

Sidney Crosby got significant support in a 4th place finish (2018-1019) in a season where he was 6th in PK TOI among forwards and 10th on his team in SHTOI/GP among forwards. (Matthews is 6th and 8th).

Sid had 45 minutes of PKTOI that season to Matthews's 58 minutes this season.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Sidney Crosby got significant support in a 4th place finish (2018-1019) in a season where he was 6th in PK TOI among forwards and 10th on his team in SHTOI/GP among forwards. (Matthews is 6th and 8th).

Sid had 45 minutes of PKTOI that season to Matthews's 58 minutes this season.

Probably the 2 most overrated forwards (by some -not all) when speaking about defense-only. I'm not surprised that list has both of them on it.

Neither are bad BTW. Just not deserving of this many votes IMO.

 

[sxvnert]

Its between Barkov and Matthews. Staals 30 points doesn't cut it.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Barkov for the win.

 

[Mickey Marner]

That Matthews nomination will infuriate more people than the Marner nomination did. Nice to see Staal get the credit he deserves for once. This is Barkov’s trophy though.

 

[wetcoast]

It’s Barkov’s win. Pretty easily.

The other two are two sides of the same coin. Matthews is elite offensively, while being pretty good defensively. Staal is elite defensively, while being pretty good offensively.

Pretty much this but at least 25% of the posts here will be about people's insecurities about anything Leaf related.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Top 10 defensive ratings amongst forwards according to hockeystatcards:

View attachment 865428
Defensive Rating: A weighted combination of blocked shots, faceoffs, penalties taken, expected goals against impact at five-on-five, goals against impact at five-on-five, penalty kill impact and usage.

FWIW: They have Matthews as a +2.0
Crosby (-6.2) is the 8th worst defensive forward in the league on their charts.

 

[newsportsfan123]

FWIW: They have Matthews as a +2.0
Crosby (-6.2) is the 8th worst defensive forward in the league on their charts.

The models don't like Crosby defensively. Evolvinghockey has his defense at -5.5 with 2020-21 being his last positive season at 1.2. This was actually his worst season defensively.

Its between Barkov and Matthews. Staals 30 points doesn't cut it.

"forward who best excels at the defensive aspect of the game"

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Sidney Crosby got significant support in a 4th place finish (2018-1019) in a season where he was 6th in PK TOI among forwards and 10th on his team in SHTOI/GP among forwards. (Matthews is 6th and 8th).

Sid had 45 minutes of PKTOI that season to Matthews's 58 minutes this season.

If we're including 4th place finishes, we can also Peter Forsberg from 2003. 4th place for the Selke, 12 seconds per game on the PK!

Datsyuk off the top of my head, not sure if he was outside of the top 5 all 4 Selkes (just checked one year and he was 6th behind Filpulla) but he was never a main PK option.

Looks like you're correct - Datsyuk is a good example.

 

[bland]

Kopitar is miles ahead of Matthews.

This year? No, Anze did not deserve a nomination. He has clearly lost a step at this advanced age and a nomination would have been solely based on reputation.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Sometimes I get mad that Marner is a Selke Finalist and Hossa never was and that means 20 years from now, someone in a History of Hockey type discussion will use that to say Marner was a better defensive winger, but then I remember it just means Selke voters are worthless.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

whoa whoa whoa, whats Matthews doing up there? I thought HF said he sucked defensively and has no chance at winning a Selke

 

[Regal]

Staal didn’t finish Top 3 in 2021 when he scored at a ~59 point pace.

This season he had 30 in 80 with a big minus.

Interesting.

To some degree I feel like we’ve been lacking in competition for the award in recent years which means more opportunity for Staal. Bergeron retired, ROR and Kopitar got older, Couturier got hurt, Toews regressed, etc, and there hasn’t been a lot of high end guys replacing them. Although sometimes players get the “hey that guy is getting overlooked” talk for a couple years before getting more recognition in a year they suddenly aren’t as good in

Top 10 defensive ratings amongst forwards according to hockeystatcards:

View attachment 865428
Defensive Rating: A weighted combination of blocked shots, faceoffs, penalties taken, expected goals against impact at five-on-five, goals against impact at five-on-five, penalty kill impact and usage.

I feel like when there’s 5 of the top 10 from the same team there’s likely some team influence at play that can’t fully be accounted for, though Carolina definitely has a lot of good defensive forwards

 

[WarriorofTime]

Has there ever been a Selke trophy finalist who wasn't in the top five in PK TOI (among forwards) on his own team? I'm struggling to find even one example.

His FO% is also a bit low for a Selke Finalist. In Bergeron's run of Selke finalist years, the absolute lowest in FO% for him was 56.6 % with about half of it being over 60 %. Matthews is a solid, if nothing remarkable, 53 %.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Sometimes I get mad that Marner is a Selke Finalist and Hossa never was and that means 20 years from now, someone in a History of Hockey type discussion will use that to say Marner was a better defensive winger, but then I remember it just means Selke voters are worthless.

Hossa should of won one as well.

 

[daver]

whoa whoa whoa, whats Matthews doing up there? I thought HF said he sucked defensively and has no chance at winning a Selke

Still the case, throw away 2nd place votes by the Toronto media notwithstanding.

 

[Rydgar]

Matthews and Staal not deserving of those nominations. One is too offensively anemic and the other just doesn't have the defensive contributions to be there. Nominations should've gone to any of: Kopitar, Eriksson Ek, Aho, Marchand....heck I'd put Tage Thompson over those guys.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Still the case, throw away 2nd place votes by the Toronto media notwithstanding.

oh so any votes Matthews gets is just the Toronto media?

 

[notbias]

Toronto media couldn't push the 'Matthews for Hart' narrative enough to catch on, so they revert to the 'Matthews for Selke' narrative that's been an ongoing psyop since ~2020.

Not saying he's bad defensively, just that he's not a Selke level guy.

Selke is mostly reputation... It's why Barkov still gets talked about like he is the next Bergeron.

Matthews is great defensively, no clue if he is top 3, but he is one of the top 3 for how they vote "most points and is also good at defensively".

This Norris has more credibility than this award and that is saying something.

It's weird to still be bitter about Matthews beating McDavid (deservedly so) one year for the Hart though.

Top 10 defensive ratings amongst forwards according to hockeystatcards:

View attachment 865428
Defensive Rating: A weighted combination of blocked shots, faceoffs, penalties taken, expected goals against impact at five-on-five, goals against impact at five-on-five, penalty kill impact and usage.

This looks more like systems than anything else...

Carolina is always high up on everything advanced stats.

 

[Regal]

Each of those players burnished their defensive reputations doing some actual defensive heavy lifting though.

Bergeron's deployment changed significantly over his career - and for good hockey reasons - but the Selke votes didn't really reflect it. He never had higher offensive zone starts than defensive zone starts in a season until he was 31. And even though his deployment changed significantly more for offense as he was teamed with Marchand and Pastrnak, his penalty killing contributions largely remained and his goals-against remained very strong.

That’s what I mean though. I think sometimes complaints that it’s too much of a two-way award can get too focused on bottom 6 types when I think there’s a lot of top 6 types who did the heavy lifting as well who deserved their recognition, even if sometimes it’s a season or two after they’re not that player anymore. I think where things go too overzealous is in the players who play an offensive role who don’t really play the competition’s best/do the heavy lifting: Matthews, Marner and Crosby in recent times. Arguably Stone. Maybe going back to Forsberg, Sakic, etc.

 

[WarriorofTime]

To some degree I feel like we’ve been lacking in competition for the award in recent years which means more opportunity for Staal. Bergeron retired, ROR and Kopitar got older, Couturier got hurt, Toews regressed, etc, and there hasn’t been a lot of high end guys replacing them. Although sometimes players get the “hey that guy is getting overlooked” talk for a couple years before getting more recognition in a year they suddenly aren’t as good in

In DPE 2.0, with super low scoring games, 2-way Centers were at a premium, most of the best teams that were winning Cups had amongst the two-way centers. With the game opening up and a lot more scoring, there's more of a premium placed on high end offense, so being a great two-way player is less prioritized. So I agree the Selke competition is a bit weaker these days.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Meh. I don’t think Matthews deserved a nomination based on the stats and the eye test. But I’m also not going to get too upset as he’s not really a threat to win. Sometimes I think these nominations are more about rewarding players who had great seasons (69 goals) but won’t make the cut for other awards.
There’s no denying he had a great season.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Meh. I don’t think Matthews deserved a nomination based on the stats and the eye test. But I’m also not going to get too upset as he’s not really a threat to win. Sometimes I think these nominations are more about rewarding players who had great seasons (69 goals) but won’t make the cut for other awards.
There’s no denying he had a great season.

or its possible the people saying his defensive game is selke level weren't full of shit.
would have to look at his defensive advanced stats I guess

 

[Sypher04]

I know people will and are bitching about it but I don’t think players should be penalized for not being used as a go to PKer in terms of being in contention for the Selke. There is a lot that goes into than coaching decision