Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[gaucholoco3]

Yeah, it gets into definition. To me, a generational talent is one that defines their generation... which you could summarize as decade, ish.

80's -- Gretzky
90's -- Lemieux, Jagr (and some think no on Jagr).
00's -- Crosby, Ovie
10's -- McDavid
20's -- we don't know yet

You could separate out F, D, G, but ultimately I define generational as this. You get one name per decade, maybe two. And others define it differently and around and around we go

Based on hype the 20’s player is supposed to be Bedard but I never understood the hype and always saw an elite goal scoring winger that gets beat in all other areas of the game.

 

[weastern bias]

I still say the stylistic comp for Celebrini is Crosby

He'll probably never come close to his highest levels of top end production but he's the same rare kind of "heart of a grinder, skill of a superstar" do-it-all centerman, I could see him being a consistent 90 point 1C who garners Selke votes

In the end I think his on ice impact will fall somewhere between prime Sidney Crosby and peak Ryan O'Reilly, which is an insane floor, O'Reilly was criminally underrated during his best years because he was wasting away in Buffalo, I'll take that guy as my 1C any day

 

[PattyLafontaine]

I'm thinking more Patrick Marleau which should get people in San Jose excited

Celebrini is much more talented than Patrick

 

[hotcabbagesoup]

"You know, nothing's really gonna matter. we're all gonna die" - Abraham Lincoln

Man, this whole time, I thought it was @The Nemesis who said that when in fact it was Abe

 

[Jargon]

Yeah, it gets into definition. To me, a generational talent is one that defines their generation... which you could summarize as decade, ish.

80's -- Gretzky
90's -- Lemieux, Jagr (and some think no on Jagr).
00's -- Crosby, Ovie
10's -- McDavid
20's -- we don't know yet

You could separate out F, D, G, but ultimately I define generational as this. You get one name per decade, maybe two. And others define it differently and around and around we go

We can at least all agree that pickles, particularly dancing ones, are generational snacks,

 

[ThePlanet]

So, Barkov

Stylistically, I think Bergeron is a better comparable due to their similar size, and the way they attack on the rush. Barkov tends to bully his way around a bit more than I think will be possible for Celebrini. I'm also projecting that he'll be able to eclipse 100 points during some of his prime years, which Barkov has not been able to do.

 

[Shark Finn]

why do we care about anything

Exactly, this is the Sharks board after all.

We can at least all agree that pickles, particularly dancing ones, are generational snacks,

At least around here!

 

[ViD]

Askarov likely to start tomorrow ?

 

[hotcabbagesoup]

Askarov likely to start tomorrow ?

Yes.

Now, tell me how you feel about Kevin Labanc.

 

[ViD]

Yes.

Now, tell me how you feel about Kevin Labanc.

Better than expected

 

[STL Shark]

So, Barkov

Won't ever have the size to play like Barkov, so depends if you're talking caliber of player or type of player (very different topics).

Stylistically, he skates so well and is always on the puck through the NZ and a zone entry machine that it is hard to not see the McDavid/Mackinnon buzz because of how lethal those two are coming through the neutral zone with the puck. I don't know that he will ever have the McDavid offensive toolkit or be a league leader in points, but style wise that is who I see a lot of as opposed to a shutdown center that is going to be a multiple time Selke winner.

His defense is good, but it isn't his calling card like it was for Bergeron and a similar but lesser extent Barkov. Crosby has always been very good defensively, but nobody thinks of him as some shutdown center because the other (offensive) parts of his game are so strong as well. That is what I think of when I see Celebrini, except I don't see a bunch of Hart/Richard/Ross Trophies in his future like Sid. Will be responsible and a true two way guy, but not necessarily a Selke candidate either.

Just going to be a winning player that does whatever it takes to win on both ends of the ice.

 

[coooldude]

Won't ever have the size to play like Barkov, so depends if you're talking caliber of player or type of player (very different topics).

Stylistically, he skates so well and is always on the puck through the NZ and a zone entry machine that it is hard to not see the McDavid/Mackinnon buzz because of how lethal those two are coming through the neutral zone with the puck. I don't know that he will ever have the McDavid offensive toolkit or be a league leader in points, but style wise that is who I see a lot of as opposed to a shutdown center that is going to be a multiple time Selke winner.

His defense is good, but it isn't his calling card like it was for Bergeron and a similar but lesser extent Barkov. Crosby has always been very good defensively, but nobody thinks of him as some shutdown center because the other (offensive) parts of his game are so strong as well. That is what I think of when I see Celebrini, except I don't see a bunch of Hart/Richard/Ross Trophies in his future like Sid. Will be responsible and a true two way guy, but not necessarily a Selke candidate either.

Just going to be a winning player that does whatever it takes to win on both ends of the ice.

This is why I've started thinking of him more as a MacKinnon style player, maybe a little less offensive upside and a little more defense, but less in the Crosby mold. Crosby plays so by the book - he's the coach's perfect player. Macklin is more creative and high event.

 

[Gecklund]

Better than expected

Then the answer is no he will not be starting. This is the Kevin Labanc diss zone. Get on board OR GET OUT!

Makes sense though. Labanc without any expectations is better than what he was in SJ.

 

[Juxtaposer]

This is why I've started thinking of him more as a MacKinnon style player, maybe a little less offensive upside and a little more defense, but less in the Crosby mold. Crosby plays so by the book - he's the coach's perfect player. Macklin is more creative and high event.

I think we should just stick with the Crosby comp. Mackinnon has a level of explosiveness I'm not sure that Celebrini will ever be able to achieve. But Celebrini will be a stronger two-way player than Mackinnon, so I'd say Celebrini has Mackinnon-impact type of upside.

 

[coooldude]

I think we should just stick with the Crosby comp. Mackinnon has a level of explosiveness I'm not sure that Celebrini will ever be able to achieve. But Celebrini will be a stronger two-way player than Mackinnon, so I'd say Celebrini has Mackinnon-impact type of upside.

Celebrini doesn't have the Crosby perfection either, and it's still a bit queasy to comp him to one of the very best of all time. Both comps are imperfect (all are) but having previously been a Crosby-lite comper, I'm now shifting my approach to a Mack-variant comper.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Celebrini doesn't have the Crosby perfection either, and it's still a bit queasy to comp him to one of the very best of all time. Both comps are imperfect (all are) but having previously been a Crosby-lite comper, I'm now shifting my approach to a Mack-variant comper.

Sure, I mean stylistically. Crosby is an all-time brain, and while Mack has elite hockey IQ, it's not Crosby next level.

I also just think this "generational" talk is bad juju. Let's just call him a great franchise C and be done with it.

 

[Jargon]

Sure, I mean stylistically. Crosby is an all-time brain, and while Mack has elite hockey IQ, it's not Crosby next level.

I also just think this "generational" talk is bad juju. Let's just call him a great franchise C and be done with it.

I think, when all is said and done, Celebrini is going to be a pretty good NHL player.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I think

If you think, are you therefore am?

all

How do you define "all"?

is

Well that depends on what the definition of is is!

said

When you say said, do you also mean what is written?

and done

What's distinguishing "and done" from merely "done"?

is

There's that pesky word again!

going to be

How are we defining "going" and "to" and "be"?

pretty

What do you mean by "pretty"?

good

What do you mean by "good"?

NHL

What do you mean by "NHL"?

player.

What do you mean by "player"?

Bonus points to those who can figure out who I am parodying...

 

[Jargon]

If you think, are you therefore am?

How do you define "all"?

Well that depends on what the definition of is is!

When you say said, do you also mean what is written?

What's distinguishing "and done" from merely "done"?

There's that pesky word again!

How are we defining "going" and "to" and "be"?

What do you mean by "pretty"?

What do you mean by "good"?

What do you mean by "NHL"?

What do you mean by "player"?

Bonus points to those who can figure out who I am parodying...

yes, I therefore am.

 

[weastern bias]

The Crosby comp is purely stylistic, not based on comparable impact, hence the Diet Coke Sidney Crosby moniker, if Celebrini was seen as a Crosby-level of prospect he would have been more hyped than Bedard

I don't like the MacKinnon comp because he is a purely one-way player, he doesn't get criticism for it because he is a truly elite offensive weapon but he has absolutely no defensive conscience to his game, he simply outscores the deficiencies he brings to his own end, Celebrini doesn't approach the game in the same manner at all

If anything he's kind of a weird hybrid between Nico Hischier and Jack Hughes, a nice middle-ground do-it-all kind of centerman that also brings a high end skillet and exciting explosiveness, I think his versatility will make it a lot easier to build a team around him becuse he can play with basically any kind of linemate and find success

We got really lucky on this one

 

[Juxtaposer]

So I was over on Natural Stat Trick for a different reason but got curious about Ferraro's WOWYs... and woof.

Ferraro with Liljegren: 45% xGF%
Ferraro without Liljegren: 37% xGF%
Liljegren without Ferraro: 50% xGF%

Ferraro with Rutta: 39% xGF%
Ferraro without Rutta: 38% xGF%
Rutta without Ferraro: 49% xGF%

Ferraro with Ceci: 31(!!)% xGF%
Ferraro without Ceci: 41% xGF%
Ceci without Ferraro: 40% xGF%

Ceci with Walman: 44% xGF%
Ceci without Walman: 32(!!!)% xGF%
Walman without Ceci: 74(!!!!!!)% xGF%

I think these numbers speak for themselves.

 

[weastern bias]

Liljegren has been so good that he has carried Ferraro to near respectability, what an awesome acquisition he has been

And Jake Walman, take a bow

 

[Saskatoon]

So I was over on Natural Stat Trick for a different reason but got curious about Ferraro's WOWYs... and woof.

Ferraro with Liljegren: 45% xGF%
Ferraro without Liljegren: 37% xGF%
Liljegren without Ferraro: 50% xGF%

Ferraro with Rutta: 39% xGF%
Ferraro without Rutta: 38% xGF%
Rutta without Ferraro: 49% xGF%

Ferraro with Ceci: 31(!!)% xGF%
Ferraro without Ceci: 41% xGF%
Ceci without Ferraro: 40% xGF%

Ceci with Walman: 44% xGF%
Ceci without Walman: 32(!!!)% xGF%
Walman without Ceci: 74(!!!!!!)% xGF%

I think these numbers speak for themselves.

Some context probably needed though, no?

I imagine when Ceci and Walman are together they are facing tough comp?

 

[Juxtaposer]

Some context probably needed though, no?

I imagine when Ceci and Walman are together they are facing tough comp?

Absolutely, there is some influence of quality of competition. But not nearly enough to account for the insane discrepancy in results.

44% for Walman and Ceci in tough minutes is somewhat respectable, given that both of those guys are being forced to play over their abilities as top pairing defensemen. As a second pair, I think they would be perfectly adequate.

Realistically, I think Walman and Liljegren are quality middle pairing guys, Ceci is a good #5, Rutta is a solid #6, Thrun a decent #7, and Ferraro not an NHLer.

 

[OverTheLine]

Ferraro's locker room presence must be really keeping him on the ice. I know we aren't exactly flush with replacement level NHL defensemen, but some nights it truly feels like his minutes are losing us games. Part of me would rather have a 37-year old injured Vlasic on the ice, but I know if I ask for that the monkey's paw curls and they'll bench someone competent and put both of them out there.