Based on hype the 20’s player is supposed to be Bedard but I never understood the hype and always saw an elite goal scoring winger that gets beat in all other areas of the game.Yeah, it gets into definition. To me, a generational talent is one that defines their generation... which you could summarize as decade, ish.
80's -- Gretzky
90's -- Lemieux, Jagr (and some think no on Jagr).
00's -- Crosby, Ovie
10's -- McDavid
20's -- we don't know yet
You could separate out F, D, G, but ultimately I define generational as this. You get one name per decade, maybe two. And others define it differently and around and around we go
Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion
- Thread starter WTFetus
- Start date
weastern bias
worst team in the league
I still say the stylistic comp for Celebrini is Crosby
He'll probably never come close to his highest levels of top end production but he's the same rare kind of "heart of a grinder, skill of a superstar" do-it-all centerman, I could see him being a consistent 90 point 1C who garners Selke votes
In the end I think his on ice impact will fall somewhere between prime Sidney Crosby and peak Ryan O'Reilly, which is an insane floor, O'Reilly was criminally underrated during his best years because he was wasting away in Buffalo, I'll take that guy as my 1C any day
He'll probably never come close to his highest levels of top end production but he's the same rare kind of "heart of a grinder, skill of a superstar" do-it-all centerman, I could see him being a consistent 90 point 1C who garners Selke votes
In the end I think his on ice impact will fall somewhere between prime Sidney Crosby and peak Ryan O'Reilly, which is an insane floor, O'Reilly was criminally underrated during his best years because he was wasting away in Buffalo, I'll take that guy as my 1C any day
PattyLafontaine
Registered User
- Apr 5, 2006
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Celebrini is much more talented than Patrick
hotcabbagesoup
"I'm going to get what I deserve" -RutgerMcgroarty
Jargon
Registered User
Yeah, it gets into definition. To me, a generational talent is one that defines their generation... which you could summarize as decade, ish.
80's -- Gretzky
90's -- Lemieux, Jagr (and some think no on Jagr).
00's -- Crosby, Ovie
10's -- McDavid
20's -- we don't know yet
You could separate out F, D, G, but ultimately I define generational as this. You get one name per decade, maybe two. And others define it differently and around and around we go
We can at least all agree that pickles, particularly dancing ones, are generational snacks,
Stylistically, I think Bergeron is a better comparable due to their similar size, and the way they attack on the rush. Barkov tends to bully his way around a bit more than I think will be possible for Celebrini. I'm also projecting that he'll be able to eclipse 100 points during some of his prime years, which Barkov has not been able to do.
Shark Finn
∀dministrator
hotcabbagesoup
"I'm going to get what I deserve" -RutgerMcgroarty
STL Shark
Registered User
- Mar 6, 2013
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Won't ever have the size to play like Barkov, so depends if you're talking caliber of player or type of player (very different topics).
Stylistically, he skates so well and is always on the puck through the NZ and a zone entry machine that it is hard to not see the McDavid/Mackinnon buzz because of how lethal those two are coming through the neutral zone with the puck. I don't know that he will ever have the McDavid offensive toolkit or be a league leader in points, but style wise that is who I see a lot of as opposed to a shutdown center that is going to be a multiple time Selke winner.
His defense is good, but it isn't his calling card like it was for Bergeron and a similar but lesser extent Barkov. Crosby has always been very good defensively, but nobody thinks of him as some shutdown center because the other (offensive) parts of his game are so strong as well. That is what I think of when I see Celebrini, except I don't see a bunch of Hart/Richard/Ross Trophies in his future like Sid. Will be responsible and a true two way guy, but not necessarily a Selke candidate either.
Just going to be a winning player that does whatever it takes to win on both ends of the ice.
- Jul 25, 2007
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This is why I've started thinking of him more as a MacKinnon style player, maybe a little less offensive upside and a little more defense, but less in the Crosby mold. Crosby plays so by the book - he's the coach's perfect player. Macklin is more creative and high event.
Gecklund
Registered User
Then the answer is no he will not be starting. This is the Kevin Labanc diss zone. Get on board OR GET OUT!
Makes sense though. Labanc without any expectations is better than what he was in SJ.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
I think we should just stick with the Crosby comp. Mackinnon has a level of explosiveness I'm not sure that Celebrini will ever be able to achieve. But Celebrini will be a stronger two-way player than Mackinnon, so I'd say Celebrini has Mackinnon-impact type of upside.
- Jul 25, 2007
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Celebrini doesn't have the Crosby perfection either, and it's still a bit queasy to comp him to one of the very best of all time. Both comps are imperfect (all are) but having previously been a Crosby-lite comper, I'm now shifting my approach to a Mack-variant comper.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
Sure, I mean stylistically. Crosby is an all-time brain, and while Mack has elite hockey IQ, it's not Crosby next level.
I also just think this "generational" talk is bad juju. Let's just call him a great franchise C and be done with it.
Jargon
Registered User
I think, when all is said and done, Celebrini is going to be a pretty good NHL player.
OrrNumber4
Registered User
- Jul 25, 2002
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If you think, are you therefore am?
How do you define "all"?
Well that depends on what the definition of is is!
When you say said, do you also mean what is written?
What's distinguishing "and done" from merely "done"?
There's that pesky word again!
How are we defining "going" and "to" and "be"?
What do you mean by "pretty"?
What do you mean by "good"?
What do you mean by "NHL"?
What do you mean by "player"?
Bonus points to those who can figure out who I am parodying...
Jargon
Registered User
weastern bias
worst team in the league
The Crosby comp is purely stylistic, not based on comparable impact, hence the Diet Coke Sidney Crosby moniker, if Celebrini was seen as a Crosby-level of prospect he would have been more hyped than Bedard
I don't like the MacKinnon comp because he is a purely one-way player, he doesn't get criticism for it because he is a truly elite offensive weapon but he has absolutely no defensive conscience to his game, he simply outscores the deficiencies he brings to his own end, Celebrini doesn't approach the game in the same manner at all
If anything he's kind of a weird hybrid between Nico Hischier and Jack Hughes, a nice middle-ground do-it-all kind of centerman that also brings a high end skillet and exciting explosiveness, I think his versatility will make it a lot easier to build a team around him becuse he can play with basically any kind of linemate and find success
We got really lucky on this one
I don't like the MacKinnon comp because he is a purely one-way player, he doesn't get criticism for it because he is a truly elite offensive weapon but he has absolutely no defensive conscience to his game, he simply outscores the deficiencies he brings to his own end, Celebrini doesn't approach the game in the same manner at all
If anything he's kind of a weird hybrid between Nico Hischier and Jack Hughes, a nice middle-ground do-it-all kind of centerman that also brings a high end skillet and exciting explosiveness, I think his versatility will make it a lot easier to build a team around him becuse he can play with basically any kind of linemate and find success
We got really lucky on this one
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
So I was over on Natural Stat Trick for a different reason but got curious about Ferraro's WOWYs... and woof.
Ferraro with Liljegren: 45% xGF%
Ferraro without Liljegren: 37% xGF%
Liljegren without Ferraro: 50% xGF%
Ferraro with Rutta: 39% xGF%
Ferraro without Rutta: 38% xGF%
Rutta without Ferraro: 49% xGF%
Ferraro with Ceci: 31(!!)% xGF%
Ferraro without Ceci: 41% xGF%
Ceci without Ferraro: 40% xGF%
Ceci with Walman: 44% xGF%
Ceci without Walman: 32(!!!)% xGF%
Walman without Ceci: 74(!!!!!!)% xGF%
I think these numbers speak for themselves.
Ferraro with Liljegren: 45% xGF%
Ferraro without Liljegren: 37% xGF%
Liljegren without Ferraro: 50% xGF%
Ferraro with Rutta: 39% xGF%
Ferraro without Rutta: 38% xGF%
Rutta without Ferraro: 49% xGF%
Ferraro with Ceci: 31(!!)% xGF%
Ferraro without Ceci: 41% xGF%
Ceci without Ferraro: 40% xGF%
Ceci with Walman: 44% xGF%
Ceci without Walman: 32(!!!)% xGF%
Walman without Ceci: 74(!!!!!!)% xGF%
I think these numbers speak for themselves.
weastern bias
worst team in the league
Liljegren has been so good that he has carried Ferraro to near respectability, what an awesome acquisition he has been
And Jake Walman, take a bow
And Jake Walman, take a bow
Some context probably needed though, no?
I imagine when Ceci and Walman are together they are facing tough comp?
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
Absolutely, there is some influence of quality of competition. But not nearly enough to account for the insane discrepancy in results.
44% for Walman and Ceci in tough minutes is somewhat respectable, given that both of those guys are being forced to play over their abilities as top pairing defensemen. As a second pair, I think they would be perfectly adequate.
Realistically, I think Walman and Liljegren are quality middle pairing guys, Ceci is a good #5, Rutta is a solid #6, Thrun a decent #7, and Ferraro not an NHLer.
Ferraro's locker room presence must be really keeping him on the ice. I know we aren't exactly flush with replacement level NHL defensemen, but some nights it truly feels like his minutes are losing us games. Part of me would rather have a 37-year old injured Vlasic on the ice, but I know if I ask for that the monkey's paw curls and they'll bench someone competent and put both of them out there.
