Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Hodge]

Thornton contracts for a hart winner and guy constantly in the hart conversation were on the low end of superstar players.

7 million was Gomez and slightly above wade Redden money. Top players in their prime were getting 8.7 million at the time

No one is more critical of Thornton than I am, but:

1) He could have gotten more, especially on his first extension.

2) He continued to take less than what he could have gotten (just from the Sharks, much less from another team) in every subsequent except his one-year-deals in 2017 and 2018 (in other words, once he became frustrated with Doug Wilson).

True, he probably could have gotten more in his prime, but like $1-2M more at best. Nobody was making over $9M in those days.

 

[Barrie22]

True, he probably could have gotten more in his prime, but like $1-2M more at best. Nobody was making over $9M in those days.

When players like hossa and campbell are signing 8 year deals at 7.2 and 7.4 a year, then thornton should be coming at the very least 9 mil.

 

[Jargon]

I realized that Thornton/Celebrini, Marleau/Smith are the absolute perfect matchups.

Celebrini is intense and ultra competitive - having Thornton both push him to get better but also help him deal with failure/know how to keep things light when it’s not all going the way he wants it to will be really helpful for the kid.

For Smith, having a workout fiend like Marleau teach him how to keep his body in the best possible shape will be essential for Smith’s development.

it’s a really smart pair up by the staff

 

[gaucholoco3]

except his one-year-deals in 2017 and 2018 (in other words, once he became frustrated with Doug Wilson).

Those deals were also basically handshake deals that he would take what was left over in the cap if DW upgraded the roster. He didn’t so Thornton got his money.

 

[STL Shark]

I mean yeah but you're only saying why Toronto wouldn't do that. I don't think Liljegren is anything special and has much more room to grow as a player. If Liljegren is the best puck-mover on the team, the team's probably not going anywhere still. They don't need to continue shuffling short term depth options on the blue line.

Toronto doesn't think he fits what they need in the playoffs (where they suck). They have Rielly as their point producing guy and then are trying to add hardness throughout the rest of the group. They've been averse to playing Liljegren as a true top 4 guy and now having a grinding coach like Berube isn't going to make that any more likely. I fully expect Hakanpaa to be the 2nd pairing RD because of size and hitting being important to Berube.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Toronto doesn't think he fits what they need in the playoffs (where they suck). They have Rielly as their point producing guy and then are trying to add hardness throughout the rest of the group. They've been averse to playing Liljegren as a true top 4 guy and now having a grinding coach like Berube isn't going to make that any more likely. I fully expect Hakanpaa to be the 2nd pairing RD because of size and hitting being important to Berube.

Possibly but that tells me that Bordeleau and Havelid and even Benning would be uninteresting to them for either of those assets. I would guess we'd have to fork over a 2nd round pick since that sort of currency is more conducive to getting a piece you want in the fold for them.

 

[weastern bias]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1833990805171974556

We're gonna win the f***ing cup, boys

 

[sharski]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1833990805171974556

We're gonna win the f***ing cup, boys

 

[coooldude]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1833990805171974556

We're gonna win the f***ing cup, boys

Watching the interview, it definitely has "6 feet on tinder" energy. That said he's clearly taller than Sid.

 

[gaucholoco3]

With talk of Musty pushing to make the team, if he has a strong camp I am wondering if a load management strategy could work for Celebrini, Smith, and Musty. Rick would probably be on board with his NBA experience.

You could have each of them rotate sitting every third game. If they stay healthy all year they would get 55 games it would keep them fresh and limit potential for injuries related to not being prepared for the NHL grind.

I would run a top 6 of:

Eklund - Celebrini - Toffoli
Granlund - Smith - Zetterlund

Musty would slot on the 2nd line wing pushing Granlund to C and when Celebrini sits Smith can be moved up. This would put these young players in difficult situations but with an understanding that their development is the number 1 priority.

The Bottom 6 would have 2 lines that can also take some pressure off the top 6.

Grundstrom/Kostin - Wennberg - Dellandrea
Goodrow - Sturm - Kunin

This lineup would struggle and provide a top 5 pick but also prioritize and focus primarily on developing the 3 young forwards.

 

[STL Shark]

With talk of Musty pushing to make the team, if he has a strong camp I am wondering if a load management strategy could work for Celebrini, Smith, and Musty. Rick would probably be on board with his NBA experience.

You could have each of them rotate sitting every third game. If they stay healthy all year they would get 55 games it would keep them fresh and limit potential for injuries related to not being prepared for the NHL grind.

I would run a top 6 of:

Eklund - Celebrini - Toffoli
Granlund - Smith - Zetterlund

Musty would slot on the 2nd line wing pushing Granlund to C and when Celebrini sits Smith can be moved up. This would put these young players in difficult situations but with an understanding that their development is the number 1 priority.

The Bottom 6 would have 2 lines that can also take some pressure off the top 6.

Grundstrom/Kostin - Wennberg - Dellandrea
Goodrow - Sturm - Kunin

This lineup would struggle and provide a top 5 pick but also prioritize and focus primarily on developing the 3 young forwards.

The general premise is fine, but every 3rd game would be horrifyingly rigid and wrong. For one, you don't learn how to adapt to an entire NHL schedule by playing 65% of the games when healthy. It also prevents any sort of rhythm being formed in a development year.

I'm all for getting the youngsters a breather when it is necessary and they hit a wall, but pre-emptively sitting them 1/3 of the time is silly. Giving them a night to observe and learn from the press box every 10-15 games or so would do plenty to keep them fresh, learning, and in a rhythm when they're healthy and able to play.

 

[Mattb124]

I have to imagine the Sharks will start the season with Granlund, Celebrini, Smith, and Sturm at C. Can’t see Granlund being moved to wing to fit a kid, more likely he continues to play 1C to help shelter them from top comp.

 

[Juxtaposer]

With talk of Musty pushing to make the team, if he has a strong camp I am wondering if a load management strategy could work for Celebrini, Smith, and Musty. Rick would probably be on board with his NBA experience.

You could have each of them rotate sitting every third game. If they stay healthy all year they would get 55 games it would keep them fresh and limit potential for injuries related to not being prepared for the NHL grind.

I would run a top 6 of:

Eklund - Celebrini - Toffoli
Granlund - Smith - Zetterlund

Musty would slot on the 2nd line wing pushing Granlund to C and when Celebrini sits Smith can be moved up. This would put these young players in difficult situations but with an understanding that their development is the number 1 priority.

The Bottom 6 would have 2 lines that can also take some pressure off the top 6.

Grundstrom/Kostin - Wennberg - Dellandrea
Goodrow - Sturm - Kunin

This lineup would struggle and provide a top 5 pick but also prioritize and focus primarily on developing the 3 young forwards.

While I'm not strictly against load management to some degree, it's worth noting that Musty is actually already used to playing a close-to-NHL amount of games in a season, as the CHL is designed tor mimic the rigor of an NHL schedule. Leo Carlsson, on the other hand, had never played more than like 50 games in a full season, so it made more sense not to just throw him into 82 games.

There's also no way the Sharks don't give Celebrini every game he's able to play.

 

[sharski]

play the rookies according to their level of play

it's all in the game yo

 

[Barrie22]

While I'm not strictly against load management to some degree, it's worth noting that Musty is actually already used to playing a close-to-NHL amount of games in a season, as the CHL is designed tor mimic the rigor of an NHL schedule. Leo Carlsson, on the other hand, had never played more than like 50 games in a full season, so it made more sense not to just throw him into 82 games.

There's also no way the Sharks don't give Celebrini every game he's able to play.

And it could also be said that the load management didn't actually help carlsson last year.

 

[gaucholoco3]

While I'm not strictly against load management to some degree, it's worth noting that Musty is actually already used to playing a close-to-NHL amount of games in a season, as the CHL is designed tor mimic the rigor of an NHL schedule. Leo Carlsson, on the other hand, had never played more than like 50 games in a full season, so it made more sense not to just throw him into 82 games.

There's also no way the Sharks don't give Celebrini every game he's able to play.

Yeah I know Musty is used to the schedule but I was also thinking of a way to find spots for all 3 without having rookies on each of the top 3 lines.

I agree they would want Celebrini playing when he can but with his Dad in charge of Sports Science for the Warriors he might be more amenable to load management than a typical 1st overall pick.

 

[Juxtaposer]

And it could also be said that the load management didn't actually help carlsson last year.

It didn't prevent him from getting injured, that's true, but who's to say he wouldn't have gotten injured earlier without it? And who's to say he wouldn't have been less effective in-game if he were playing every night? Kid has skinny legs and I really don't think he would have scored at the pace he did if he played a full season, so I do think that the load management strategy had merit, personally.

Yeah I know Musty is used to the schedule but I was also thinking of a way to find spots for all 3 without having rookies on each of the top 3 lines.

I agree they would want Celebrini playing when he can but with his Dad in charge of Sports Science for the Warriors he might be more amenable to load management than a typical 1st overall pick.

If Musty wins a top-9 spot by being one of the nine best forwards in camp, then you just play him. Give him a night off if he needs it, same with Smith, but I think going into a season with your potential games played essentially capped at 2/3rds of the season isn't really smart.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If Musty wins a top-9 spot by being one of the nine best forwards in camp, then you just play him. Give him a night off if he needs it, same with Smith, but I think going into a season with your potential games played essentially capped at 2/3rds of the season isn't really smart.

I agree with this mentality if he wins a spot in camp. I just have a hard time visualizing where he'd play in the lineup when it seems like the top priority is developing Celebrini and Smith.

 

[gaucholoco3]

I agree with this mentality if he wins a spot in camp. I just have a hard time visualizing where he'd play in the lineup when it seems like the top priority is developing Celebrini and Smith.

That’s where I’m at especially since the team seems dissatisfied with Sudbury as an option.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

That’s where I’m at especially since the team seems dissatisfied with Sudbury as an option.

If Musty shows he's one of the top nine forwards on the team, I'd be fine with choosing to start him as a 4th liner instead of sending him back to juniors. Yeah, we may not like the ice time that would be afforded to Musty in such a situation but his development should take a backseat to Celebrini and Smith's and I'm not a fan of him and his off-puck play playing with another rookie. I think he can stand to develop even while playing on the 4th line with someone like Sturm while things move forward during the season. There will be injuries and moves made that will open spots as guys get more experience.

 

[Sharksfan66]

Musty and Smith are looking pretty good. Fun to have hockey back!

Edit: Wrong thread. I'll see myself out.

 

[67 others]

True, he probably could have gotten more in his prime, but like $1-2M more at best. Nobody was making over $9M in those days.

You talk about 1-2 million on short team friendly contracts like it's a small sum and a 0.50c raise for a fast food worker lol. Its a huge sum of money. If you make $72000 a year and get a salary raise to $87000 a year, Its pretty nice and everyone agrees. if you take a pay cut so the boss can also pay your teammates and keep them around even though you are by far the best worker, you are not only a great team player, but you are ultra rare.

And yes, Ovechkin was signed for 9.5 million a year for 13 years. Crosby and Malkin 8.7 million on 5 year deals. Eric Staal, 8.2 million, etc

All with longer term. Most big players wanted minimum 5-7 years. Some wanted much longer term back when 13 years long was legal.

He was winning Hart trophies and in the mix for best in the league at the time. Before signing his extension, he won a hart, and was 5th and 6th for the Hart consecutive years after. Many players were forcing teams to give them 8-13 year deals at the time. Lecavalier signed an 11 year deal for 7.7 million a year and it was instant regret because he was a flash in the pan who was 4th for the Hart once and then never relevant again. Brad Richards signed a shorter deal for a higher caphit at 5 year, 7.8 million a year and then signed that albatross 9 year contract with the rangers at 6.66million that was bought out

There were times people stated the sharks were 2nd overall in the league, and he scored 96 points. His closest teammates were Michalek with 55 points and Marleau with 48 points. He was a franchise player and everyone at the time lauded his hometown discount and not handcuffing the team with by forcing more money at less term or a huge long term(and wondered why Marleau was worth the same money since Jumbo was a way better player at the time)

Jumbo would have been well within his rights to ask for big money and long term like others who were a flash in the pan in the hart mix less consistently than he was and nobody would have blinked if he had gotten it. Scott Gomez, Rick Nash, Eric Staal, Vinnie Lecavalier, Marion Gaborik, Brad Richards made more money on his contract than jumbo, and guys like Brian Campbell, Thomas Vanek and Chris Drury made 100k less than Jumbo on way longer terms.

If Thornton wanted 1.5 million a year more at 8 years, bringing him to 8.7 million instead of 7.2 million, im reasonably sure at the time any team in the league would have been okay with that. That's 20.8% more salary.

The equivalent today would be if Auston Matthews, instead of signing that 4 year 13.25 million dollar contract, decided to sign a $10.2 million dollar contract for 3 years and then at the end of that 3 years, you knew he would say "Ill just resign the same deal even though the cap went up. No biggie!"

I know you were trying the angle of "the first contract of his when we got him in trade was equivalent to 15 million today", but the shoe doesn't fit. That was when the cap was new and there were 15-20 players making in that range vs the cap.

In short, Thornton was saintly in regards to the opportunity he gave the GM to save and reallocate money and everyone who was around at the time knows it.

 

[Hodge]

You talk about 1-2 million on short team friendly contracts like it's a small sum and a 0.50c raise for a fast food worker lol. Its a huge sum of money. If you make $72000 a year and get a salary raise to $87000 a year, Its pretty nice and everyone agrees. if you take a pay cut so the boss can also pay your teammates and keep them around even though you are by far the best worker, you are not only a great team player, but you are ultra rare.

And yes, Ovechkin was signed for 9.5 million a year for 13 years. Crosby and Malkin 8.7 million on 5 year deals. Eric Staal, 8.2 million, etc

All with longer term. Most big players wanted minimum 5-7 years. Some wanted much longer term back when 13 years long was legal.

He was winning Hart trophies and in the mix for best in the league at the time. Before signing his extension, he won a hart, and was 5th and 6th for the Hart consecutive years after. Many players were forcing teams to give them 8-13 year deals at the time. Lecavalier signed an 11 year deal for 7.7 million a year and it was instant regret because he was a flash in the pan who was 4th for the Hart once and then never relevant again. Brad Richards signed a shorter deal for a higher caphit at 5 year, 7.8 million a year and then signed that albatross 9 year contract with the rangers at 6.66million that was bought out

There were times people stated the sharks were 2nd overall in the league, and he scored 96 points. His closest teammates were Michalek with 55 points and Marleau with 48 points. He was a franchise player and everyone at the time lauded his hometown discount and not handcuffing the team with by forcing more money at less term or a huge long term(and wondered why Marleau was worth the same money since Jumbo was a way better player at the time)

Jumbo would have been well within his rights to ask for big money and long term like others who were a flash in the pan in the hart mix less consistently than he was and nobody would have blinked if he had gotten it. Scott Gomez, Rick Nash, Eric Staal, Vinnie Lecavalier, Marion Gaborik, Brad Richards made more money on his contract than jumbo, and guys like Brian Campbell, Thomas Vanek and Chris Drury made 100k less than Jumbo on way longer terms.

If Thornton wanted 1.5 million a year more at 8 years, bringing him to 8.7 million instead of 7.2 million, im reasonably sure at the time any team in the league would have been okay with that. That's 20.8% more salary.

The equivalent today would be if Auston Matthews, instead of signing that 4 year 13.25 million dollar contract, decided to sign a $10.2 million dollar contract for 3 years and then at the end of that 3 years, you knew he would say "Ill just resign the same deal even though the cap went up. No biggie!"

I know you were trying the angle of "the first contract of his when we got him in trade was equivalent to 15 million today", but the shoe doesn't fit. That was when the cap was new and there were 15-20 players making in that range vs the cap.

In short, Thornton was saintly in regards to the opportunity he gave the GM to save and reallocate money and everyone who was around at the time knows it.

So you agree with me that he took around a 1.5M/year discount in his prime. Thanks for helping us afford to keep Torrey Mitchell, Jumbo. What a saint.

 

[one2gamble]

So you agree with me that he took around a 1.5M/year discount in his prime. Thanks for helping us afford to keep Torrey Mitchell, Jumbo. What a saint.

The 1.5-2 puts downward pressure on everyone else as well

 

[Hodge]

The 1.5-2 puts downward pressure on everyone else as well

It didn't even put any downward pressure on Marleau's salary.