Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Patty Ice]

If we were to do something like that, I'd rather they take a flier on Tyson Barrie.

He signed a PTO with the Flames a few days ago but they could still sign him if they are desperate.

 

[mogambomoroo]

I think the concept of getting a PP1 qb like Barrie is fine, but not if it undermines Grier's plan. Maybe he just wants to see what he has in certain players in another winning-ins't-the-goal season.

I would also prefer Barrie, but it seems Calgary are on him. Sharks still have chance to sign him since he is on a PTO.
Hopefully they would, it wouldn't make us a playoff team but it would help the PP.

 

[Hodge]

I'd rather run five forwards with Granlund QBing the first unit than Barrie or Schultz.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Wonder if any of Dickinson, Muk, or Ferraro can play right side. If not, Ceci on a 2 year deal probably isn't the worst idea in the world. If your RHD is UFA, Benning, Pohlkamp and the available UFAs are Theodore, Ekblad, Ceci, and Savard…that’s pretty rough to guarantee a chance of improving the D. Which goes to the point of maybe you keep Ceci. Also, I agree this gives us a good chance to take someone over the coals for Ceci. I wonder if the bidding might start at St. Louis’ 2nd from Edmonton, which ain’t bad!

I am vaguely intrigued by the idea of Ekblad, though I have been a long-standing card-carrier of the "Ekblad is overrated" club. Very curious what he'll get on a new contract, given that it'll likely be his last big one. Doubt it will age well...

The only other interesting UFA RHD next summer are Will Borgen, Dante Fabbro, and sort of Neal Pionk and Henri Jokiharju. Slim pickings.

I have personally never seen Dickinson or Mukh play on their off-sides, but even if they could I believe that having a balance of righties and lefties is important.

As I've probably mentioned before, I don't think you have to have a top pairing RHD, but I think you need to have at least one legit top-4 RHD. The Tampa model, with three top-3 LHD (Hedman, McDonagh, and Sergachev) plus one solid middle pairing RHD (Cernak) and some very solid #5's (Gudas, Rutta, Savard types) can get the job done. So this would all obviously be contingent on these guys hitting their upsides, but theoretically something like this would work:

Schaefer-Fabbro type, via trade or UFA signing
Dickinson-Pohlkamp
Mukhamadullin-Ceci/Benning type, via UFA signing

That is to say that I think we need Dickinson to be at least a great #3D, Mukhamadullin to be a good #4D, Pohlkakp (whom I really like) to be a quality #5D out of what we already have in the system. We'd need to be in a position to draft Schaefer (definitely top-3, potentially higher...) and that he turn into a legit #1D. And we'd need to sign someone as a UFA and maybe trade for another D.

It's doable, but man does everything have to go right to make a Stanley Cup contender. I miss the days where you had Thornton, Pavelski, Marleau, Couture, Vlasic, Boyle, and/or Burns just locked in and didn't even have to bother worrying about the top of the lineup. What a crazy amount of talent.

 

[Hodge]

I bet Ferraro would be willing to switch over to the right side and not ask for much of a raise on his next contract.

 

[gaucholoco3]

I'd rather run five forwards with Granlund QBing the first unit than Barrie or Schultz.

I agree although I would argue that Smith might be the Sharks best PPQB at this point.

 

[weastern bias]

The 5 forward power play was an absolute disaster last year, I really think you need a natural D to protect the blue line, I would rather put an un-ideal D at the point rather than have a more talented forward in that spot

 

[Juxtaposer]

I bet Ferraro would be willing to switch over to the right side and not ask for much of a raise on his next contract.

I bet he would, but he's not exactly at the top of my priority list unfortunately. Let's call him "Plan F" in Operation Fix The Defense By 2027.

The 5 forward power play was an absolute disaster last year, I really think you need a natural D to protect the blue line, I would rather put an un-ideal D at the point rather than have a more talented forward in that spot

It wasn't that bad, but I'd rather just use Walman and Mukhamadullin on the PP units than sign a PTO guy at this point.

 

[Hodge]

I bet he would, but he's not exactly at the top of my priority list unfortunately. Let's call him "Plan F" in Operation Fix The Defense By 2027.


It wasn't that bad, but I'd rather just use Walman and Mukhamadullin on the PP units than sign a PTO guy at this point.

Would Bordeleau and Havelid for Robertson and Liljegren be fair or do we need to add a pick? I think Liljegren could fill that Fabbro role you listed and he could probably run the top PP unit this season. Leafs need to shed cap for Pacioretty and Hakanpaa.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Would Bordeleau and Havelid for Robertson and Liljegren be fair or do we need to add a pick? I think Liljegren could fill that Fabbro role you listed and he could probably run the top PP unit this season. Leafs need to shed cap for Pacioretty and Hakanpaa.

Liljegren is an interesting trade target, and probably the most valuable piece in the deal, so I don't think the Leafs would go for it unless we added. And I'm not too interested in trading picks for a guy who is not a clear-cut top-4 D unless it was like, a 4th or lower.

But maybe if they're really desperate for cap space? Hard to say.

 

[weastern bias]

It wasn't that bad, but I'd rather just use Walman and Mukhamadullin on the PP units than sign a PTO guy at this point.

I don't remember exactly when they went away from the 5 F look but they started the season on it and during the 11 game losing streak to start the year the team scored 6 power play goals in those 11 games, it really didn't work well at all

 

[Hodge]

Liljegren is an interesting trade target, and probably the most valuable piece in the deal, so I don't think the Leafs would go for it unless we added. And I'm not too interested in trading picks for a guy who is not a clear-cut top-4 D unless it was like, a 4th or lower.

But maybe if they're really desperate for cap space? Hard to say.

I'd be fine attaching a 3rd because adding Liljegren makes it easier to recoup that pick by trading Ceci (or Benning) at the deadline.

I just remembered Todd Marchant would have worked with Shea Theodore as Ducks director of player development back in the day. Probably meaningless but maybe that connection plus a boatload of cash is enough to land him next summer.

With some modest improvement from 2 of Mukhamadullin, Liljegren and Thrun we'd finally have a halfway respectable blueline. Replace Ferraro and Walman with Dickinson and whoever we draft in 2025 and it starts to have a chance of being good.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I don't remember exactly when they went away from the 5 F look but they started the season on it and during the 11 game losing streak to start the year the team scored 6 power play goals in those 11 games, it really didn't work well at all

Sure, but was that specifically because there wasn't a defenseman or because it was the wrong combination of forwards? I think the latter is more relevant. Unless you truly believe that Henry Thrun is vital to making the PP work...

I'd be fine attaching a 3rd because adding Liljegren makes it easier to recoup that pick by trading Ceci (or Benning) at the deadline.

I just remembered Todd Marchant would have worked with Shea Theodore as Ducks director of player development back in the day. Probably meaningless but maybe that connection plus a boatload of cash is enough to land him next summer.

With some modest improvement from 2 of Mukhamadullin, Liljegren and Thrun we'd finally have a halfway respectable blueline. Replace Ferraro and Walman with Dickinson and whoever we draft in 2025 and it starts to have a chance of being good.

I wouldn't balk at something like Havelid + 3rd for Liljegren, I'd just... prefer it be a 4th.

I have always loved Theodore (he's who I wanted in the 2013 draft instead of Micro Mueller...), so he'd at least be worth reaching out to. Doesn't he have considerable injury issues though? He's only played 102 regular season games in the last two years, and at 30 I'm not sure he's someone I'd bet on (thought I could say the same about Ekblad).

 

[weastern bias]

Sure, but was that specifically because there wasn't a defenseman or because it was the wrong combination of forwards? I think the latter is more relevant. Unless you truly believe that Henry Thrun is vital to making the PP work...

I think it's both, our whole forward core was super inept last year, especially early on with Granlund on the shelf and Hoffman playing big minutes, but I think the mindset changes when the forwards don't have the mental security of knowing someone responsible is backing them up if and when they turn the puck over

I'm not a big Thrun guy, but he is at very least an actual defender and his teammates see him as such, I think with a 5th forward walking the blue line everyone gets really tight and feels a need to make the perfect play on the puck at all times which stifles creativity

 

[Hodge]

Sure, but was that specifically because there wasn't a defenseman or because it was the wrong combination of forwards? I think the latter is more relevant. Unless you truly believe that Henry Thrun is vital to making the PP work...


I wouldn't balk at something like Havelid + 3rd for Liljegren, I'd just... prefer it be a 4th.

I have always loved Theodore (he's who I wanted in the 2013 draft instead of Micro Mueller...), so he'd at least be worth reaching out to. Doesn't he have considerable injury issues though? He's only played 102 regular season games in the last two years, and at 30 I'm not sure he's someone I'd bet on (thought I could say the same about Ekblad).

If Theo can't stay healthy again this season I imagine we could get him on a cheap enough deal that it would be worth it. Probably shave a few years off the contract too. He's definitely fallen off defensively from his peak though so it's a risk.

 

[timorous me]

I bet he would, but he's not exactly at the top of my priority list unfortunately. Let's call him "Plan F" in Operation Fix The Defense By 2027.


It wasn't that bad, but I'd rather just use Walman and Mukhamadullin on the PP units than sign a PTO guy at this point.

The main reason--only reason, really--that I'd go along with Ferraro on his off side would be to allow Mukhamadullin to play every night (with Thrun in there, too, since I think he deserves a chance to build on last season by playing with a better team in a better system).

And then if Shak plays, once he gets settled enough I'd be up for him getting that PP time. He may not be an ideal PP QB in some ways, but I think he does have a genuine talent at getting the puck to the net in dangerous ways which could lead to some good stuff for us.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I think it's both, our whole forward core was super inept last year, especially early on with Granlund on the shelf and Hoffman playing big minutes, but I think the mindset changes when the forwards don't have the mental security of knowing someone responsible is backing them up if and when they turn the puck over

I'm not a big Thrun guy, but he is at very least an actual defender and his teammates see him as such, I think with a 5th forward walking the blue line everyone gets really tight and feels a need to make the perfect play on the puck at all times which stifles creativity

I tried to see if there were any stats I could use to back up my point but couldn't find anything, so I think I'll just have to disagree on the "defensemen are so much better at walking the line than forwards that the unit plays scared if they don't have one" point and leave it at that.

If my memory serves, the five-forward PP unit had the likes of Hoffman, Zadina, and/or Barabanov on it. AKA some of the worst defensive forwards in the NHL. Plus early-season Granlund, who was really bad. I don't think the five-forward PP is inherently a problem, but it is if the forwards are hot garbage.

 

[CupfortheSharks]

I would not at all be surprised to see musty get 9 games. Then it’s up to him to show he’s ready. If he does, then he’ll stick. I love what I saw from him and smith both last year and this year in the prospect games….

I have absolutely no problem having three rookie forwards and a rookie D. So what? The expectation on the team and the rooks is very low. They aren’t expected to lead the team to the POs, so it’s great time to see what they are….

I also would not be surprised to see musty make the leap successfully. He haft he size and skill, and he has a head coach that understands good defensive systems and good defensive play so the big hole in his game can be coached.

Personally I’d love to the Lund line stick. The celly with Toffoli and maybe kostin/dyllandrea…., smith, musty and a defensively solid wennberg in the third line. Basically takes the best U22s and spreads them over three lines, and pairs with solid vet. That second line wing with Toffoli and cell would be the one big hole.

Ps: The first 10 games will be huge. If the rooks, including musty, look like nhlers and the team can go 5-5 (or better), then it’s game on….

I got my $20 on sharks 250-1 to win the west, $20 at 200-1 to take the pacific, $100 at 13-1 to make playoffs, and $200 over 63.5 pts, so I’ll put my money where my mouth is. The sharks will be a whole lot better than expected…

Good luck on your bets. Sometimes it’s fun to bet a few bucks on your team. I go to Vegas to bet on sports quite often. If fact, I just flew back today. Last year the only futures bet I put on the Sharks was Kahkonen under 14.5 wins. It cashed easily.

 

[STL Shark]

Would Bordeleau and Havelid for Robertson and Liljegren be fair or do we need to add a pick? I think Liljegren could fill that Fabbro role you listed and he could probably run the top PP unit this season. Leafs need to shed cap for Pacioretty and Hakanpaa.

We'd need to add, but Liljegren has been high on my want list for a number of years now. Think he could do so well getting away from the Toronto spotlight with an increased role. If Benning looks like 2022-23 Benning, I'd add him to that deal and call it a day.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

We'd need to add, but Liljegren has been high on my want list for a number of years now. Think he could do so well getting away from the Toronto spotlight with an increased role. If Benning looks like 2022-23 Benning, I'd add him to that deal and call it a day.

I don't think it's worth it. Liljegren is probably topping out as a #4. Unless we're getting a long term answer with something like that, we can run what we got. I don't see a reason for Liljegren to bypass UFA in two years because of the opportunities he might get here. If he manages to take another step to be better than that somehow, why wouldn't he test the market?

 

[STL Shark]

I don't think it's worth it. Liljegren is probably topping out as a #4. Unless we're getting a long term answer with something like that, we can run what we got. I don't see a reason for Liljegren to bypass UFA in two years because of the opportunities he might get here. If he manages to take another step to be better than that somehow, why wouldn't he test the market?

#4 RHD are valuable commodities. Getting one for a #6, and 2 prospects under 5'10 (plus getting a better version of Bordeleau with it) would be a great move. Would be the best puck mover on the roster from day 1. Deal is worth it even if he hits UFA after next season because what are you really giving up?

 

[Hodge]

I don't think it's worth it. Liljegren is probably topping out as a #4. Unless we're getting a long term answer with something like that, we can run what we got. I don't see a reason for Liljegren to bypass UFA in two years because of the opportunities he might get here. If he manages to take another step to be better than that somehow, why wouldn't he test the market?

Liljegren is already a #4 on a playoff team. If he takes another step and doesn't want to sign an extension with us we could trade him at a profit.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

#4 RHD are valuable commodities. Getting one for a #6, and 2 prospects under 5'10 (plus getting a better version of Bordeleau with it) would be a great move. Would be the best puck mover on the roster from day 1. Deal is worth it even if he hits UFA after next season because what are you really giving up?

I mean yeah but you're only saying why Toronto wouldn't do that. I don't think Liljegren is anything special and has much more room to grow as a player. If Liljegren is the best puck-mover on the team, the team's probably not going anywhere still. They don't need to continue shuffling short term depth options on the blue line.

Liljegren is already a #4 on a playoff team. If he takes another step and doesn't want to sign an extension with us we could trade him at a profit.

And so is Ceci. It doesn't mean that coming to a much worse team with potential to get more opportunities means they're going to improve. Typically, guys like Ceci and Liljegren tend to fail when given more opportunities and more ice time because it's against tougher competition. Neither of these guys are guys who are going to turn the tide against the top guys around the league. That's the sort of thing they need to address. They don't have to care about their 2nd and 3rd pairings at this point.

 

[67 others]

Thornton was making 17% of the cap ceiling when the Sharks acquired him then made 13% on his first extension, the equivalent of $15M and $11.4M cap hits today. Those were not artificially low contracts.

Thornton contracts for a hart winner and guy constantly in the hart conversation were on the low end of superstar players.

7 million was Gomez and slightly above wade Redden money. Top players in their prime were getting 8.7 million at the time

 

[OrrNumber4]

Thornton was making 17% of the cap ceiling when the Sharks acquired him then made 13% on his first extension, the equivalent of $15M and $11.4M cap hits today. Those were not artificially low contracts.

No one is more critical of Thornton than I am, but:

1) He could have gotten more, especially on his first extension.

2) He continued to take less than what he could have gotten (just from the Sharks, much less from another team) in every subsequent except his one-year-deals in 2017 and 2018 (in other words, once he became frustrated with Doug Wilson).