Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Hodge]

Kunin throws hits that leave him out of position, is a terrible penalty killer, isn't good at fighting (though, full marks for being willing) and isn’t leading anyone to anything of any significance

The idea that he's more valuable than a younger player who is at least a serviceable injury call up in Bordeleau just because he does more things but does them very poorly is ridiculous

Zadina has also not established himself as a depth player, he got regular healthy scratches on the 2024 Sharks, he's the one we should be questioning tendering a QO, not Bordeleau

Yes, a 26 year old who has established himself in the NHL and has scored 15 goals per 82 games over his career is more valuable than someone you yourself described as "at least a serviceable injury call up." That shouldn't be controversial at all.

We should be questioning whether or not to tender a QO to every single RFA on the roster. Ultimately, though, it's hard to see how we improve by getting rid of Kunin, Thrun or Emberson. That's not the case with Bordeleau who does zero things that help a NHL team win games.

 

[Barrie22]

Yes, a 26 year old who has established himself in the NHL and has scored 15 goals per 82 games over his career is more valuable than someone you yourself described as "at least a serviceable injury call up." That shouldn't be controversial at all.

We should be questioning whether or not to tender a QO to every single RFA on the roster. Ultimately, though, it's hard to see how we improve by getting rid of Kunin, Thrun or Emberson. That's not the case with Bordeleau who does zero things that help a NHL team win games.

Yet Bordeleau scores goals at a better pace then zadina and also produces points better then zadina. If zadina has proven himself to be a serviceable depth forward in the NHL then so has Bordeleau.

And being as Bordeleau is 4 years younger. And has way more upward potential then zadina has, its a no brainer to qualify Bordeleau.

 

[Hodge]

Yet Bordeleau scores goals at a better pace then zadina and also produces points better then zadina. If zadina has proven himself to be a serviceable depth forward in the NHL then so has Bordeleau.

And being as Bordeleau is 4 years younger. And has way more upward potential then zadina has, its a no brainer to qualify Bordeleau.

Bordeleau is 2 years younger than Zadina. There's also a lot more to being a depth NHL forward than points. In fact if Zadina focuses less on points and more on using his size and speed to win puck battles and provide defensive value I think he could be a solid long term bottom six piece for us. Bordeleau doesn't bring anything to the table when he's not scoring.

 

[Cas]

Zadina has also not established himself as a depth player, he got regular healthy scratches on the 2024 Sharks, he's the one we should be questioning tendering a QO, not Bordeleau

Filip Zadina is a soft offense-only winger who scored at a lower rate than Jonathan Dahlen did at the same age. Seems like a very strong non-tender candidate.

 

[weastern bias]

Yes, a 26 year old who has established himself in the NHL and has scored 15 goals per 82 games over his career is more valuable than someone you yourself described as "at least a serviceable injury call up." That shouldn't be controversial at all.

We should be questioning whether or not to tender a QO to every single RFA on the roster. Ultimately, though, it's hard to see how we improve by getting rid of Kunin, Thrun or Emberson. That's not the case with Bordeleau who does zero things that help a NHL team win games.

Kunin has established himself as a depth winger who is a consistent drag on possession, has no playmakimg skills and provides no positive value outide of net front garbage-goal scoring, which is valuable, but he has no other upside

He isn't an imposing physical deterrent, he's an awful defensive player, and he has been rewarded for being a "leader" on the franchise that has been dead last in wins in back to back years, if there's a guy I'd like to see gone to institute a culture of accountability he's at the top of my list, he's not good at anything and the organization has done nothing but pat him on the back for looking busy while doing nothing

Bordeleau is 2 years younger than Zadina. There's also a lot more to being a depth NHL forward than points. In fact if Zadina focuses less on points and more on using his size and speed to win puck battles and provide defensive value I think he could be a solid long term bottom six piece for us. Bordeleau doesn't bring anything to the table when he's not scoring.

Filip Zadina literally does none of those things, he's a scorer who can't score, he's the exact player you're describing Bordeleau to be, they're the Spider-Man meme

 

[Barrie22]

Bordeleau is 2 years younger than Zadina. There's also a lot more to being a depth NHL forward than points. In fact if Zadina focuses less on points and more on using his size and speed to win puck battles and provide defensive value I think he could be a solid long term bottom six piece for us. Bordeleau doesn't bring anything to the table when he's not scoring.

This will be zadina 8th NHL season, he has already been booted off one team because he was absolutely useless offensively and defensively. How many opportunities does zadina get that you are saying Bordeleau should not be afforded?

And you say Bordeleau doesn't or can't play defense, but yet the sat% paint a different story as in his time with the Sharks he was the 4th best at shot differential while also only starting 39% of his time in the offensive zone.

 

[Hodge]

This will be zadina 8th NHL season, he has already been booted off one team because he was absolutely useless offensively and defensively. How many opportunities does zadina get that you are saying Bordeleau should not be afforded?

And you say Bordeleau doesn't or can't play defense, but yet the sat% paint a different story as in his time with the Sharks he was the 4th best at shot differential while also only starting 39% of his time in the offensive zone.

They're both pretty useless but I just think Zadina has some NHL tools, that's all. I won't be sad if neither returns.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Guys, guys, guys...I can settle this.

Kunin, Bordeleau, and Zadina are all worthless.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

Guys, guys, guys...I can settle this.

Kunin, Bordeleau, and Zadina are all worthless.

And all 3 will end up on a line with Macklin this season

 

[weastern bias]

And all 3 will end up on a line with Macklin this season

Kunin-Celebrini-Kunin 1st line gonna go crazy

 

[coooldude]

They're all NHLers and they're all replacement level or just below replacement level NHLers. Worthless isn't completely accurate.

It just so happens that Kunin and Zadina profile as the kind of players who have a few tools that might work on the bottom 6 of a competitive team. Where they've been asked to contribute, they're vastly overmatched. The same will likely be true in 2024-25 but the problem with replacement level players is that you replace them with other replacement level players unless you have significantly upgraded your roster, which as of this point we have not. And the rookies and prospects are all exciting but are almost certainly objectively worse than Zadina, Bords, or Kunin today at playing an NHL game.

The problem with Bords is that he doesn't have the physical tools or play style to be an effective bottom 6 wing on a contending team, so that means his only path is to be a small top 6 scoring winger, which at this point is only likely if his development continues to improve above expectations and even then he'll likely still top out at a 2nd line scoring winger on a non competitive team. Love them or hate them, Kunin and Zadina have another few years to prove they have bottom 6 tools or play style.

Grier may be talking out of his ass, but in the end of season interviews he had very positive things to say about Kunin "he embodies a lot of what we're trying to build here", slightly positive things to say about Zadina "think he could grow into a player IF he lets go mentally of the need to put up points", and didn't have much to say about Bords as far as I'm remembering. You can negotiate against that reality all you want but that's what he said publicly.

 

[Cas]

They're all NHLers and they're all replacement level or just below replacement level NHLers. Worthless isn't completely accurate.

It just so happens that Kunin and Zadina profile as the kind of players who have a few tools that might work on the bottom 6 of a competitive team. Where they've been asked to contribute, they're vastly overmatched. The same will likely be true in 2024-25 but the problem with replacement level players is that you replace them with other replacement level players unless you have significantly upgraded your roster, which as of this point we have not. And the rookies and prospects are all exciting but are almost certainly objectively worse than Zadina, Bords, or Kunin today at playing an NHL game.

The problem with Bords is that he doesn't have the physical tools or play style to be an effective bottom 6 wing on a contending team, so that means his only path is to be a small top 6 scoring winger, which at this point is only likely if his development continues to improve above expectations and even then he'll likely still top out at a 2nd line scoring winger on a non competitive team. Love them or hate them, Kunin and Zadina have another few years to prove they have bottom 6 tools or play style.

Grier may be talking out of his ass, but in the end of season interviews he had very positive things to say about Kunin "he embodies a lot of what we're trying to build here", slightly positive things to say about Zadina "think he could grow into a player IF he lets go mentally of the need to put up points", and didn't have much to say about Bords as far as I'm remembering. You can negotiate against that reality all you want but that's what he said publicly.

Zadina has bottom six tools? He's a soft perimeter winger with awful, atrocious possession and advanced defensive numbers. He has a mediocre shot and is a mediocre skater, little or no offensive creativity or awareness, and zero defensive value. He wasn't playing above his head, he was playing bottom six minutes. He doesn't have the physical tools or the mental awareness to play in a solid bottom six or PK role. He's just plain not an NHL player and has no future - he'll be 25 next year and has 262 NHL games under his belt. Might as well see what younger, cheaper guys - Bordeleau, Gushchin, Cardwell - might wind up offering.

Kunin is just abysmal defensively and generates zero offense outside of being somewhat decent as a net-front guy. He's a below-average skater, his hands are garbage, his shot is below average (except purely net-front), he's not much of a passer, and doesn't do anything useful with the puck. He hits people, but his hits are empty calories because he doesn't do anything useful with or after those hits. You can use a guy like that on your roster, but strictly as a 4RW playing 8 minutes a night because you don't have anyone else who can play there - ideally, he plays 30-40 games a season and is a healthy scratch throughout the playoffs. He's actively detrimental to helping develop our prospects.

 

[Hodge]

Zadina has bottom six tools? He's a soft perimeter winger with awful, atrocious possession and advanced defensive numbers. He has a mediocre shot and is a mediocre skater, little or no offensive creativity or awareness, and zero defensive value. He wasn't playing above his head, he was playing bottom six minutes. He doesn't have the physical tools or the mental awareness to play in a solid bottom six or PK role. He's just plain not an NHL player and has no future - he'll be 25 next year and has 262 NHL games under his belt. Might as well see what younger, cheaper guys - Bordeleau, Gushchin, Cardwell - might wind up offering.

Kunin is just abysmal defensively and generates zero offense outside of being somewhat decent as a net-front guy. He's a below-average skater, his hands are garbage, his shot is below average (except purely net-front), he's not much of a passer, and doesn't do anything useful with the puck. He hits people, but his hits are empty calories because he doesn't do anything useful with or after those hits. You can use a guy like that on your roster, but strictly as a 4RW playing 8 minutes a night because you don't have anyone else who can play there - ideally, he plays 30-40 games a season and is a healthy scratch throughout the playoffs. He's actively detrimental to helping develop our prospects.

Clearly you're correct and Mike Grier is wrong. What does he know? All he's done is brought this franchise back from the dead in less than 2 years.

Let's also not forget that Zadina took a huge risk terminating his contract with Detroit. He played well enough that I think the Sharks have the obligation to make him whole financially.

 

[coooldude]

Zadina has bottom six tools? He's a soft perimeter winger with awful, atrocious possession and advanced defensive numbers. He has a mediocre shot and is a mediocre skater, little or no offensive creativity or awareness, and zero defensive value. He wasn't playing above his head, he was playing bottom six minutes. He doesn't have the physical tools or the mental awareness to play in a solid bottom six or PK role. He's just plain not an NHL player and has no future - he'll be 25 next year and has 262 NHL games under his belt. Might as well see what younger, cheaper guys - Bordeleau, Gushchin, Cardwell - might wind up offering.

Kunin is just abysmal defensively and generates zero offense outside of being somewhat decent as a net-front guy. He's a below-average skater, his hands are garbage, his shot is below average (except purely net-front), he's not much of a passer, and doesn't do anything useful with the puck. He hits people, but his hits are empty calories because he doesn't do anything useful with or after those hits. You can use a guy like that on your roster, but strictly as a 4RW playing 8 minutes a night because you don't have anyone else who can play there - ideally, he plays 30-40 games a season and is a healthy scratch throughout the playoffs. He's actively detrimental to helping develop our prospects.

Look, my point is, tell it to Grier. I didn't say they were currently good nor did I say they are currently bottom 6 on a contender capable, but they have a better chance at figuring out some way to contribute than Bords, kind of like the process Nico Sturm described. They could very well be out of the league in 3 years or less. I said replacement or below replacement.

 

[TealManV]

Clearly you're correct and Mike Grier is wrong. What does he know? All he's done is brought this franchise back from the dead in less than 2 years.

Grier has been crushing it with the players he’s brought in. Look at this list:

Kunin.
Lindblom.
Lorentz.
Makiniemi.
Nutivaara.
Benning.
Burroughs.
G. Smith.
Peterson.
Svechnikov.
Okhotiuk.
Studnicka.
Addison.
Hoffman.
Gawanke.
A. Johnsson.
Kaut.
MacDonald.
Harrington.

And he crushed his first coaching hire with Quinn, too.

 

[timorous me]

Grier has been crushing it with the players he’s brought in. Look at this list:

Kunin.
Lindblom.
Lorentz.
Makiniemi.
Nutivaara.
Benning.
Burroughs.
G. Smith.
Peterson.
Svechnikov.
Okhotiuk.
Studnicka.
Addison.
Hoffman.
Gawanke.
A. Johnsson.
Kaut.
MacDonald.
Harrington.

And he crushed his first coaching hire with Quinn, too.

It's like a book that tells the whole story...except that there are big holes in every page.

 

[Barrie22]

Look, my point is, tell it to Grier. I didn't say they were currently good nor did I say they are currently bottom 6 on a contender capable, but they have a better chance at figuring out some way to contribute than Bords, kind of like the process Nico Sturm described. They could very well be out of the league in 3 years or less. I said replacement or below replacement.

How does a 8 year NHL player that will be 25 at the start of the season, have a better shot of figuring out some way to contribute then a 22 year old, 3 year NHL player?

He didn't show these so called skills in Detroit nor did he show these so called skills in San Jose this season. So we should allow zadina chance after chance after chance because he has these so called hidden skills that nobody has ever seen once in his 7 year career.

And being a bit taller then Bordeleau is not a skill that he can utilize.

 

[coooldude]

How does a 8 year NHL player that will be 25 at the start of the season, have a better shot of figuring out some way to contribute then a 22 year old, 3 year NHL player?

He didn't show these so called skills in Detroit nor did he show these so called skills in San Jose this season. So we should allow zadina chance after chance after chance because he has these so called hidden skills that nobody has ever seen once in his 7 year career.

And being a bit taller then Bordeleau is not a skill that he can utilize.

I'll say it again, tell it to Grier.

You guys might be able to endlessly debate three replacement players in our darkest years, but I don't think it's worth the energy

 

[TealManV]

It's like a book that tells the whole story...except that there are big holes in every page.

Totally. Zetterlund, Granlund, Sturm and Blackwood have been solid. Thrun and Emberson have shown some nice flashes. And we’ll see how these draft picks perform soon enough.

That was just an attempt to make a point that Grier has a lot to do before I think he’s “crushing it.”

 

[weastern bias]

Clearly you're correct and Mike Grier is wrong. What does he know? All he's done is brought this franchise back from the dead in less than 2 years.

This is hyperbolic because Grier's success has literally nothing to do with any of the players he's added to our roster, it's all about who he's managed to eject

He "brought us back from the dead" by being shrewd enough to liquidate problem contracts to the degree we won 19 games and won the lottery, we still have no idea if he actually has a knack for talent evaluation, he has zero track record of bringing in quality players

 

[Gecklund]

This is hyperbolic because Grier's success has literally nothing to do with any of the players he's added to our roster, it's all about who he's managed to eject

He "brought us back from the dead" by being shrewd enough to liquidate problem contracts to the degree we won 19 games and won the lottery, we still have no idea if he actually has a knack for talent evaluation, he has zero track record of bringing in quality players

I mean he’s brought in players like Granlund, Sturm, Zetterlund, Blackwood, Thrun, Emberson, Shakir who have all had varying degrees of success last season.

 

[weastern bias]

I mean he’s brought in players like Granlund, Sturm, Zetterlund, Blackwood, Thrun, Emberson, Shakir who have all had varying degrees of success last season.

And yet none of those players has contributed in the slightest to out collective perception that the team has turned a corner, because none of them have improved the team's quality of play on the ice

I agree that Mike "brought this franchise back from the dead", but is has nothing to do with acquiring any of those players, it has everything to do with liquidating Burns, Meier, Karlsson and Hertl, getting draft capital for those 3 bad contracts (and not signing Meier to a 4th one), picking 4th in a 4 player draft and winning the draft lottery in year 2 of the tear down

 

[Cas]

Granlund was also a cap dump - he wasn't expected to perform at all (like Hoffman), he was just there to make the money work out, regardless of his actual anticipated performance (Grier would have acquired him if he had found out Granlund had lost a foot or something). We just got lucky that Granlund turned out to still have something left in the tank.

 

[themelkman]

delete

 

[Star Platinum]

Kunin-Celebrini-Kunin 1st line gonna go crazy

Double the Kunin, double the fun!

And yet none of those players has contributed in the slightest to out collective perception that the team has turned a corner, because none of them have improved the team's quality of play on the ice

I agree that Mike "brought this franchise back from the dead", but is has nothing to do with acquiring any of those players, it has everything to do with liquidating Burns, Meier, Karlsson and Hertl, getting draft capital for those 3 bad contracts (and not signing Meier to a 4th one), picking 4th in a 4 player draft and winning the draft lottery in year 2 of the tear down

Hey, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Hopefully he's both. As I've said before, I find the results of last year's draft encouraging, especially when measured against his predecessor who long overstayed his welcome.