Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Celly4Celebrini]

The end of the day it’s a business, marketing sells a cute story, cute stories don’t win championships

im not saying its not. im saying that player who dreamed of being a leaf wont be waiving his NMC. If he didnt have one, very different story.

We could spend that money on actual good players instead of bringing in the kind of washed up shell of his former self veteran we just spent two years purging from the team.

no ones saying a long term deal. we purged the long term deals. who cares if washed up players play here for a year or two while the prospects come along.

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Thank you for the amazing 9 years

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you tell me what UFAs are good players who you want. guess what. its mostly a pile of shit.

oh and trade wise? we shouldn't be giving up long term assets right now. most we should do is Bords/Gushkin for similar level D prospects, who also wont make alot of money.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Given Griers track record with UFA’s he’ll use all available cap space to sign all available UFA 3/4 line forwards and 6/7 dmen to absurd deals

I wouldn't count on it. It's different when you're looking to move out long term deals and just looking to fill gaps because you have no youth coming up really. Now we're looking to put talent around Celebrini to help him get better as quickly as possible. We have more of a need for top talent if we can get our hands on any. This is especially true if Couture remains injured and we'd like to keep Eklund-Granlund-Zetterlund together as a line. Get Celebrini some wingers and get a couple PMD's and see what happens. They can be a lot better next year with the right moves.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

I wouldn't count on it. It's different when you're looking to move out long term deals and just looking to fill gaps because you have no youth coming up really. Now we're looking to put talent around Celebrini to help him get better as quickly as possible. We have more of a need for top talent if we can get our hands on any. This is especially true if Couture remains injured and we'd like to keep Eklund-Granlund-Zetterlund together as a line. Get Celebrini some wingers and get a couple PMD's and see what happens. They can be a lot better next year with the right moves.

This. I don’t think the goal should be to build core pieces of the team through trades. We have the framework of a very strong young forward group brewing. If Smith can fill out as an offensive 2C to Celebrini’s two-way 1C, and one or both of Bystedt or Edstrom can lock down bottom 6C roles, the Sharks will be looking really great at center. While far from certain, as of this moment this looks healthily within the realm of possibility.

Add in Eklund, Zetterlund (what a great addition), and if Musty can be a plus middle 6 winger and all the sudden the Sharks are more than halfway to a great long term top 9 forward group.

But it’s gonna take time for the youngest guys to develop into those roles. While that’s happening they need to have some quality players to play with. Do we really want Kunin and Kostin being the best Celebrini get to play with? How much better did Eklund look once he got to play full time with Granlund and Zetterlund?

So the Sharks either trade to acquire better forwards or sign UFAs. While Grier has done a lot to reset the prospect pipeline, it’s not overflowing with redundant high-end talent. Likewise, while the Sharks have a couple of extra high picks, it’s not such a great surplus that makes any of them expendable. The one thing the Sharks have in vast abundance for the next three seasons is cap space. So it makes sense to go out and target 2-3 additions on SHORT TERM deals to ensure Celebrini, Eklund, Zetterlund, Musty, Mukh, and the other young players have enough talent around them that they don’t do a repeat of this last season and stifle development just struggling to get the puck out of their own end.

The reason why I’m personally so gung-ho on Stamkos is that he’s got the history that allows him to relate to what Celebrini and Smith will be going through, he already has his Cup with his legacy already written, is about a good a lock for 30/30 as you’ll find, and at his age teams aren’t going to be knocking down his door with long term high value contract offers. I think Grier could actually put together a pretty compelling package and narrative for him “hey Stammer, come out to the Bay and we’ll pay you what Tampa will struggle to afford on a three/four year contract for just two seasons, with buyout protection, and full NTC. We’ll front load it as much as possible and pay it all in signing bonuses prior to season start so you can sidestep CA taxes and still reap the benefits of Floridas no income tax. We will be adding some other pieces alongside you and our young kids, and we’re optimistic we can make a run during your second year. But if we don’t end up being in the hunt we’ll retain half your cap, and work with another team to retain half of the rest, to get you to the team you want to be on. We’re confident you’ll have the pick of the contenders at a prorated $3M cap hit and $0 actual salary obligation”.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

I wouldn't count on it. It's different when you're looking to move out long term deals and just looking to fill gaps because you have no youth coming up really. Now we're looking to put talent around Celebrini to help him get better as quickly as possible. We have more of a need for top talent if we can get our hands on any. This is especially true if Couture remains injured and we'd like to keep Eklund-Granlund-Zetterlund together as a line. Get Celebrini some wingers and get a couple PMD's and see what happens. They can be a lot better next year with the right moves.

Outside of Stamkos this is a pretty weak UFA class the only way Grier is getting the type of talent he needs around Celebrini and Smith will be via trade.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Outside of Stamkos this is a pretty weak UFA class the only way Grier is getting the type of talent he needs around Celebrini and Smith will be via trade.

Sure is but even bringing back someone like Duclair as a buffer until an internal winger develops is a good idea to help Celebrini. While Duclair isn't anything special, he's NHL caliber and would be fine on Celebrini's wing while our internal winger prospects like Musty or Halttunen develop. Trades are acceptable even for wingers if you get them for cheap or are paid to take on a cap dump in that fashion. A defenseman or two via trade is also okay if you get them on your terms and they're going to be here for 4+ years. I just don't think we'll find ourselves a top guy because of the cost being prohibitive but a couple 2nd pairing PMD types would go a long way from having guys like Benning, Burroughs, and Rutta throw grenades out there on a regular basis.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Outside of Stamkos this is a pretty weak UFA class the only way Grier is getting the type of talent he needs around Celebrini and Smith will be via trade.

I disagree. When viewed with the intent on sourcing short term middle six talent (so age is less of a concern) I think there are lots of interesting options:

Stammer of course, but also Duchene, Marchesault, Monahan, Toffolli, Tarasenko, Teravainen, Stephenson, Henrique, Duclair, Wennberg, Foegele, DeBrusk, Sprong, Domi, Bertuzzie, Lindholm, are all interesting options. Not that I expect all are willing to consider the Sharks, nor that Grier has interest in all these players, or that there is a contract that makes sense for both sides. But Stamkos plus one of those guys on short term deals would do wonders for the forward group.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

I disagree. When viewed with the intent on sourcing short term middle six talent (so age is less of a concern) I think there are lots of interesting options:

Stammer of course, but also Duchene, Marchesault, Monahan, Toffolli, Tarasenko, Teravainen, Stephenson, Henrique, Duclair, Wennberg, Foegele, DeBrusk, Sprong, Domi, Bertuzzie, Lindholm, are all interesting options. Not that I expect all are willing to consider the Sharks, nor that Grier has interest in all these players, or that there is a contract that makes sense for both sides. But Stamkos plus one of those guys on short term deals would do wonders for the forward group.

None of those names are good in terms of filling inleadership or mentorship roll especially Duschene and Monahan. Every name on this list besides Stamkos are players that missing pieces or depth scoring on Stanley cup hopefuls not a rebuilding team

Sure is but even bringing back someone like Duclair as a buffer until an internal winger develops is a good idea to help Celebrini. While Duclair isn't anything special, he's NHL caliber and would be fine on Celebrini's wing while our internal winger prospects like Musty or Halttunen develop. Trades are acceptable even for wingers if you get them for cheap or are paid to take on a cap dump in that fashion. A defenseman or two via trade is also okay if you get them on your terms and they're going to be here for 4+ years. I just don't think we'll find ourselves a top guy because of the cost being prohibitive but a couple 2nd pairing PMD types would go a long way from having guys like Benning, Burroughs, and Rutta throw grenades out there on a regular basis.

I do like Duclairs bond with Eklund

 

[Hodge]

im not saying its not. im saying that player who dreamed of being a leaf wont be waiving his NMC. If he didnt have one, very different story.

no ones saying a long term deal. we purged the long term deals. who cares if washed up players play here for a year or two while the prospects come along.

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

you tell me what UFAs are good players who you want. guess what. its mostly a pile of shit.

oh and trade wise? we shouldn't be giving up long term assets right now. most we should do is Bords/Gushkin for similar level D prospects, who also wont make alot of money.

Up front I like Marchessault, Foegele, Joshua, Heinen, Martinook and a handful of others.

On defense I think any of Tanev, Myers, Hakanpaa, Roy and Chatfield would be interesting on 3-4 year deals.

Any combination of those players would be a better use of our cap space than overpaying for Stamkos' decline years.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

None of those names are good in terms of filling inleadership or mentorship roll especially Duschene and Monahan. Every name on this list besides Stamkos are players that missing pieces or depth scoring on Stanley cup hopefuls not a rebuilding team

Hmm. I honestly can comment for or against the leadership or mentorship capabilities most of these guys do or don’t bring. But, I don’t know that is the heuristic I’d use to evaluate if a middle six UFA is worth pursuing. All the guys I mentioned are guys I’d rather see Celebrini and Smith spend a season or two making passes to instead of Kostin*, Kunin, Sturm**, or Givani f***ing Smith.

* so far Kostin has been decent and I wouldn’t mind if he spent time on a third line with something like Smith and Duclair

** I really like Sturm a lot, and this wasn’t meant to disparage him. I just want him in the 4C role and no where near the middle 6. Barring another catastrophic string of injuries, if the Sharks are forced to play him there out of necessity again, I’d consider that a failure on Grier’s part.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Up front I like Marchessault, Foegele, Joshua, Heinen, Martinook and a handful of others.

On defense I think any of Tanev, Myers, Hakanpaa, Roy and Chatfield would be interesting on 3-4 year deals.

Any combination of those players would be a better use of our cap space than overpaying for Stamkos' decline years.

No DeMelo on defense? Otherwise, I like your lists.

I’ll enthusiastically, but respectfully, disagree on Stamkos. He’s been over a point per game for the last 7 years. If he declines to a 30/30 guy that’s still arguably better than anything the Sharks put on the ice last season.

 

[Barrie22]

2 years or even 3 years of Stamkos isn't going to hurt the cap situation, 3 years means he is off the books just as Celebrini and maybe Smiths ELC end.

 

[Hodge]

No DeMelo on defense? Otherwise, I like your lists.

I’ll enthusiastically, but respectfully, disagree on Stamkos. He’s been over a point per game for the last 7 years. If he declines to a 30/30 guy that’s still arguably better than anything the Sharks put on the ice last season.

DeMelo would be a good signing too. WRT Stamkos I would much rather add say Joshua, Foegele and DeMelo for 3.5M each than Stamkos for 10.5M.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

DeMelo would be a good signing too. WRT Stamkos I would much rather add say Joshua, Foegele and DeMelo for 3.5M each than Stamkos for 10.5M.

I mean, if you can get Joshua, Foegele, and DeMelo at $3.5M each, there’s still more than ample cap to sign Stamkos at $10.5M.

Not that my thoughts mean anything, but in my mind I’m framing UFA offers from the Sharks as buying UFA years to keep deals short. So if a guys is looking for 4x$4M, Grier should be offering 3x$5.5M. Here’s what that looks like adding Stamkos ($11.5x2), DeMelo ($6.5x3), and Wennberg ($6.5x4). With a 23 man roster including Vlasic and Rutta there’s still over $6M in cap space.

The Sharks have a ton of cap space, and no one really in line for a large raise over the next three seasons outside of Eklund. Between that and some levers they can pull to clear more space (e.g. buyout Vlasic or Rutta, or Robidas island for Benning and Burrows) there is a window where it seems fully appropriate to be active UFA shoppers as long as term can be kept short.

 

[sampler]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of not giving out any term pretty much. The kids will not e ready, including Mack. Smith's struggles against men is not unexpected. very very few 18 or 19 year olds jump into the league and play a legit solid top 6 O or top 4 D. It can happen, but only for Bedard-likes and even he stunk defensively as a turnover machine.

The sharks will be better next year, but not likely to compete legitimately. I posted otherwise several weeks ago, but I changed my mind.

I think the best bet is an army of overpaid 1 yr deals for 27-29 year old players. The nice thing about these kind of deals is that they are basically automatic draft picks, potentially high ones, if the sharks fall out of the PO race, as quality rentals usually go for 1st and 2nd rounders, sometimes more. However, if the sharks do surprisingly well and make a real run for the POs, they can be extended for real $$$ and term with exclusive negotiating rights. And, what good 29 year old wouldnt want to resign with a team armed with a great prospect pool that just made a real run for the postseason, and who is fully familiar with everything?

Overpayment is OK for 1 yr deals.

 

[sampler]

Some examples would be:
Joshua 1 yr, 4.5M
Sprong 1 yr, 4M
Domi 1 yr, 5M

things like that.

 

[sharks_dynasty]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of not giving out any term pretty much. The kids will not e ready, including Mack. Smith's struggles against men is not unexpected. very very few 18 or 19 year olds jump into the league and play a legit solid top 6 O or top 4 D. It can happen, but only for Bedard-likes and even he stunk defensively as a turnover machine.

The sharks will be better next year, but not likely to compete legitimately. I posted otherwise several weeks ago, but I changed my mind.

I think the best bet is an army of overpaid 1 yr deals for 27-29 year old players. The nice thing about these kind of deals is that they are basically automatic draft picks, potentially high ones, if the sharks fall out of the PO race, as quality rentals usually go for 1st and 2nd rounders, sometimes more. However, if the sharks do surprisingly well and make a real run for the POs, they can be extended for real $$$ and term with exclusive negotiating rights. And, what good 29 year old wouldnt want to resign with a team armed with a great prospect pool that just made a real run for the postseason, and who is fully familiar with everything?

Overpayment is OK for 1 yr deals.

I agree with what you have said. The only challenge is that the sharks don’t have any retention slots. For that reason, we may want to extend two year contracts instead of one. Otherwise, this is a good plan.

 

[Hodge]

I mean, if you can get Joshua, Foegele, and DeMelo at $3.5M each, there’s still more than ample cap to sign Stamkos at $10.5M.

Not that my thoughts mean anything, but in my mind I’m framing UFA offers from the Sharks as buying UFA years to keep deals short. So if a guys is looking for 4x$4M, Grier should be offering 3x$5.5M.

The Sharks have a ton of cap space, and no one really in line for a large raise over the next three seasons outside of Eklund. Between that and some levers they can pull to clear more space (e.g. buyout Vlasic or Rutta, or Robidas island for Benning and Burrows) there is a window where it seems fully appropriate to be active UFA shoppers as long as term can be kept short.

The way I see it Eklund, Zetterlund, Sturm, Kunin, Celebrini and Smith should have guaranteed spots on the opening night roster.

We're probably stuck with Granlund, Ferraro, Blackwood and Vanecek barring something unexpected.

That still gives us the chance to add up to 7 new forwards and 6 new defensemen depending on our appetite for using buyouts, waivers, (LT)IR, etc.

I would prioritize adding as many new faces as possible if for no other reason than to wash the loser stink off this team.

 

[spintops]

Stuck with Granlund? He was basically our best player lol. I also think that contract is movable, especially if you took a small cap dump back.

 

[Hodge]

Stuck with Granlund? He was basically our best player lol. I also think that contract is movable, especially if you took a small cap dump back.

Stuck was probably not the best word choice. I just think those 4 won't be traded over the summer for a variety of reasons.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Stuck was probably not the best word choice. I just think those 4 won't be traded over the summer for a variety of reasons.

I’m hoping Granlund picks up where he left off last season. Maybe he garners a 2nd +. I’d not mind re-signing him for another year or two in either case.

I also like Kostin in a bottom 6 role. I suspect he’d want to play further up the lineup, but a 4th line of Kostin, Sturm, and Kunin could be solid. We’ll have a better idea after next season.

 

[Barrie22]

How is Smith playing 5-9 minutes a night against men at the worlds any indication of him struggling to adjust to the higher level?

Especially when early reports were he was playing pretty good but just his line mates not being able to finish good plays setup by Smith.

 

[Alaskanice]

How is Smith playing 5-9 minutes a night against men at the worlds any indication of him struggling to adjust to the higher level?

Especially when early reports were he was playing pretty good but just his line mates not being able to finish good plays setup by Smith.

It’s more about him being young and not an NHL player. At least that’s what I’m garnering in the world’s posts.

 

[Star Platinum]

Just my opinion, but I don’t really see how most of those names both improve our defense and could grow with our team. Jiricek would cost Smith and Andersson would cost #14++. So everyone is either 1) a mediocre player who wouldn’t actually make a real difference on our team, 2) would cost significant future assets to acquire (Jiricek/Andersson), or 3) isn’t available (Lee, IMO).

I’d be in favor of Andersson, but that doesn’t preclude spending money on Stamkos as well. We have plenty of it.

There is no magic quick fix in hockey. You need organizational depth and you won't get it by trades most of the time (cause you're either trading future value for current value or trading things that are roughly equivalent so the net is not a huge change) and you won't get it via free agency because bad teams have to overpay too much for players because players want to both win and make a lot of money and then later on, you might want to trade those players and it's rough cause you overpaid them in the first place and no one wants to give you a fair deal to take on the bad contract you signed.

The only way you acquire a lot of players without giving up assets to get them is through the draft and being prudent in free agency. If you sign a free agent for a reasonable contract (not an overpay), you can then keep or trade that guy for something else and you come out ahead. But it means not getting the new flashy toys while you're still a bad team and not trying to get too good to sacrifice the draft position that you need to keep adding more talent.

 

[Star Platinum]

im not saying its not. im saying that player who dreamed of being a leaf wont be waiving his NMC. If he didnt have one, very different story.

no ones saying a long term deal. we purged the long term deals. who cares if washed up players play here for a year or two while the prospects come along.

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

you tell me what UFAs are good players who you want. guess what. its mostly a pile of shit.

oh and trade wise? we shouldn't be giving up long term assets right now. most we should do is Bords/Gushkin for similar level D prospects, who also wont make alot of money.

Unless someone wants to be nice and take Vlasic off our hands, the only guy they really need to look to move is Granlund, who'll have value for a contending team and is a UFA in 2025, so unless he really shows interest in re-signing, I assume he'd want to go to a better team as a free agent.

 

[Star Platinum]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of not giving out any term pretty much. The kids will not e ready, including Mack. Smith's struggles against men is not unexpected. very very few 18 or 19 year olds jump into the league and play a legit solid top 6 O or top 4 D. It can happen, but only for Bedard-likes and even he stunk defensively as a turnover machine.

The sharks will be better next year, but not likely to compete legitimately. I posted otherwise several weeks ago, but I changed my mind.

I think the best bet is an army of overpaid 1 yr deals for 27-29 year old players. The nice thing about these kind of deals is that they are basically automatic draft picks, potentially high ones, if the sharks fall out of the PO race, as quality rentals usually go for 1st and 2nd rounders, sometimes more. However, if the sharks do surprisingly well and make a real run for the POs, they can be extended for real $$$ and term with exclusive negotiating rights. And, what good 29 year old wouldnt want to resign with a team armed with a great prospect pool that just made a real run for the postseason, and who is fully familiar with everything?

Overpayment is OK for 1 yr deals.