Alaskanice
Registered User
It seems to me that when we did draft defense with early picks, it was back in a different era. Rathje and Stuart were when big and defensive were prime.
Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II
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OrrNumber4
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- Jul 25, 2002
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What I mean is that I don't think the Islanders would be willing to move Dobson or Wahlstrom anymore.I think it would be fair to assume that ship has sailed, on account of us not having Burns anymore.
Meier to NYI is interesting. I’d do something like 2023 1st, Raty, and cap dump (Bailey?).
Pavelski2112
Bold as Boognish
Funny to think the only real good offensive top-4 dman the Sharks ever drafted was Ozolinsh
EDIT: Demers was alright too but for most of his career should never have been playing in the top-4
EDIT: Demers was alright too but for most of his career should never have been playing in the top-4
Gecklund
Registered User
Wahlstrom would probably be available for Timo. He definitely didn’t live up to his potential but still only 22.
OrrNumber4
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- Jul 25, 2002
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If Demers is alright, then I'd consider Carle and Ehrhoff top-4 offensive defensemen.
Pavelski2112
Bold as Boognish
Forgot about Ehrhoff but he didn't really hit his prime until he went to Vancouver
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
I knew what you meant, just being obtuse for fun. But I will say that I think they’d definitely be open to moving Wahlstrom because he can’t stay healthy.
I think all four were legit top-4 guys at the height of their careers.
The real point is that the Sharks have never in their history drafted a true star two-way #1D, which comes back to my point. The best the Sharks have done is the combo of drafting Vlasic (#1 defensive D) and trading for Boyle/Burns (star offensive D’s).
one2gamble
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- Dec 24, 2007
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A. Not going to win during his window anyways annnnd it makes the Sharks worse which leads to more high picks.
OrrNumber4
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Even just since the lockout, I'd guess roughly half the teams?
OK, looking at teams who have, since the lockout, drafted a better defenseman than the Sharks ever have, with the first example(s) that come to mind.
Anaheim Ducks - Theodore, arguably, and then Drysdale
Arizona Coyotes - OEL
Boston Bruins - McAvoy, Hamilton
Buffalo Sabres - Dahlin
Calgary Flames - Fox?
Carolina Hurricanes - Slavin (admittedly others may not be a fan, but then there's Faulk and Hanifin)
Chicago Blackhawks - No, but Keith in 2002 (better than any player the Sharks have ever drafted)
Colorado Avalanche - Makar
Columbus Blue Jackets - Werenski, though it's arguable
Dallas Stars - Heiskanen
Detroit Red Wings - Seider
Edmonton Oilers - No, but contract aside maybe Nurse > Vlasic? I've always felt Nurse was overrated.
Florida Panthers - Ekblad
Los Angeles Kings - Doughty
Minnesota Wild - No
Montreal Canadiens - Subban
Nashville Predators - One thousand examples
New Jersey Devils - No, but Hughes and Nemec could challenge
New York Islanders - Dobson
New York Rangers - Nobody comes to mind
Ottawa Senators - Karlsson
Philadelphia Flyers - I'm a believer in Provorov, but right now, no
Pittsburgh Penguins - Letang
Seattle Kraken - No
St. Louis Blues - Pietrangelo
Tampa Bay Lightning - Hedman
Toronto Maple Leafs - Rielly
Vancouver Canucks - Hughes
Vegas Golden Knights - No
Washington Capitals - Carlson
Winnipeg Jets - No
So only 8 teams, two of which didn't exist 6 years ago, haven't in the past 18 drafts picked a defenseman better than the Sharks have ever drafted.
A
B is for bailout. I think the Sharks have to ride or die with Karl for a couple years if they can't find A.
Unless he's pulling this kinda rate the next to last year of his contract. (or obvs the last year) So I think Sharks are likely stuck with him for at least two years more years. Assuming the cap goes up in the meantime. I feel like a contender would be willing to pick him up with only one more year to make a run at the cup. If he's not producing like that I think they just ride it out.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
Well, ones still in the league (that qualified by my standards for much of their career):
Nashville: Josi, Suter, Weber
Calgary: Giordano, Fox
Carolina: Slavin
Tampa: Hedman
Dallas: Heiskanen
Ottawa: Karlsson
LA: Doughty
St. Louis: Pietrangelo
Boston: McAvoy
Buffalo: Dahlin
Colorado: Makar
Arizona: OEL
Anaheim: Lindholm, borderline Theodore
Florida: Ekblad when he’s healthy
Pittsburgh: Letang
Chicago: Keith
Minnesota: Burns
Washington: Carlson
On the historical side, just a few off the top of my head (don’t know much about defensemen before my time):
Edmonton: Coffey
Detroit: Lidstrom
Montreal: Robinson, Chelios
NYR: Leetch, Zubov
NYI: Potvin
New Jersey: Niedermayer
Couldn’t find one: Flyers, Leafs, Jets, Jackets, Canucks, Sharks
Not counting Seattle and Vegas, obviously, that’s almost every team.
Edit: beat to the punch.
one2gamble
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- Dec 24, 2007
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Your definition of star is different than mine but you guys are acting like this is something that happens regularly and it's not. Are the sharks bad at it...yes but it's not like there is a "star" #1 damn just sitting there to pick all the time. I'd also argue prime Vlasic was as good and as well known as some of those guys though I know you are leaning on offense.
I'd also argue the sharks have had them, they just didn't built out the team well enough around them. The draft is only one source and it's not better than any other.
Juxtaposer
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hohosaregood
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I'd disagree on a few of these guys being "two-way" guys but that's about it. The overall impact probably evens out for them anyways.
For me, the Karlsson thing is dependent on how flexible he is with where he wants to go. I’d ask him for a list of teams and take the best deal among those teams if they are actually there. I’m not concerned about the return. Just get something done. Max out Meier’s return. Take what you can get on Karlsson.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
For me, if a defenseman is completely oppressive offensively, in this case Karlsson/Burns/Makar/potentially Dahlin, he still qualifies for my list if he’s at least average defensively. But merely elite offensive defensemen who are below average defensively don’t, which is why you don’t see Quinn Hughes on my list, for example.
hohosaregood
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Yea I kinda figured that's what you were going for there. There's a certain feeling of helplessness when Karlsson or Makar or Burns just get going.
Kat Predator
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- Nov 28, 2019
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Juxtaposer
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Yes, exactly. Burns had four seasons (2015-2019) where he qualifies for my list on account of just being impossible to stop. True, he gave some back the other way, but the middle two seasons he was by far the best play-driving defenseman in the league those years (IMO, of course), capable of winning games all on his own, much like we’re seeing from Karlsson this season.
All the best to Martin Jones. I hated on him for many seasons but it was never personal and I hope he finds success. He always seemed like a good guy.
LadyStanley
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- Jun 23, 2020
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He has a .894 save percentage on the season.
Jones has been able to put up short stretches of good play throughout his recent career, but he's never able to be consistently good or even acceptable. He's basically a below-average backup goaltender in qualitative terms, who needs to start to produce his good streaks, leaving his teams suffering from overall awful goaltending over the course of a season.
He's just not an NHL goaltender, or at least he's probably not among the 50 best goaltenders in North America and shouldn't fool anyone into thinking that he's somehow turned into one after four-plus years of failure merely because he had a hot streak.
Anomie2029
Registered User
ROFL his save percentage at the moment is worse than any time with the Sharks.
The Kraken have the second highest PDO in the league (only behind Bruins who have a ridiculously hot goalie). The Kraken have the leagues best shooting percentage and the fifth worst team save percentage.
How long can they keep out playing their awful goalie? Sharks were able to do it for one season.
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