2022/23 Roster Thread II: Worth Every Penny

[LegionOfDoom91]

You know it’s bad….

These two are still going at it over this.

 

[Appleyard]

It’s the nature of the sport for guys to get seriously dinged. Check the Bruins injured list-Marchand, McAvoy and others. The Caps have Backstrom, Wilson and Oshie . It’s a rare club that doesn’t have significant players with major injuries at the end of the year.

It is the nature of basically every sport that guys are dinged up... half a team will be "injured" by civilian standards basically all season.

It does come with the territory.

BUT at the same time this is an average team at best, before having so many top players with injury questions.

And the injuries to key players leaving question marks? Well, only a couple of teams really have more concerning lists of players going into next year in that regard. Pretty much the two you listed... after that Vegas and Minnesota probably round out the top 5 in terms of injury concerns going into 2022-23.

So even in pro sport where injuries are common, the situation the Flyers are in is notable due to being in the ~85th centile at very best (and arguably ~94th centile) amongst teams in terms of injury worries leaving a potential cloud over the start of next season.

 

[Rebels57]

Oh no no. Ellis never had surgery. He’s going to rehab an injury that took him out for the year. But Hayes had enough surgeries for the whole team alone.

Make no mistake , this team is tanking next year.

Ellis is never playing another game for the Flyers. He has no intention of doing anything other than being part of the big money con against Comcast.

These two are still going at it over this.

SEPTIC TANK THREAD PLEASE

DiMarco makes me want to smash my head through a table engulfed in flames

 

[FlyerNutter]

It is the nature of basically every sport that guys are dinged up... half a team will be "injured" by civilian standards basically all season.

It does come with the territory.

BUT at the same time this is an average team at best, before having so many top players with injury questions.

And the injuries to key players leaving question marks? Well, only a couple of teams really have more concerning lists of players going into next year in that regard. Pretty much the two you listed... after that Vegas and Minnesota probably round out the top 5 in terms of injury concerns going into 2022-23.

So even in pro sport where injuries are common, the situation the Flyers are in is notable due to being in the ~85th centile at very best (and arguably ~94th centile) amongst teams in terms of injury worries leaving a potential cloud over the start of next season.

Some might even dare say, that the room definitely is more fractured every day.

 

[TheKingPin]

Ellis is never playing another game for the Flyers. He has no intention of doing anything other than being part of the big money con against Comcast.



SEPTIC TANK THREAD PLEASE

DiMarco makes me want to smash my head through a table engulfed in flames

Yea on one hand it’s certainly a choice to be LTIR and not retire, but we’ll worth the money I’m sure. On the other hand, why would anyone want to gut it out for this team? He’s only played 4 games for them so there is no loyalty. If he’s got the medical backing he could just sit back and make millions. I wouldn’t do it, but still a scenario.

Either way, you are not going to get an Ellis level player for nothing so the team continues to suck that much more without him.

The injuries are helping this team stay out of its own way.

 

[TheKingPin]

If they are forced to hopefully tank it this year, they could use their cap space and acquire a 1st. Instead of pushing for more space and a heavy contract to follow.

 

[renberg]

I really don't see tanking as a resolution. As we saw in the past, a team can be dead last and deserving of the top pick, with the lottery, the needed benefits do not come. So tanking for Bedard sounds good until after the lottery balls fall, and a last place Flyers team loses out and the pick goes to the Devils for whoever.
Better to draft well, trade smart and develop what you have the best that you can. Looking for help from the lottery is not a viable plan.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I really don't see tanking as a resolution. As we saw in the past, a team can be dead last and deserving of the top pick, with the lottery, the needed benefits do not come. So tanking for Bedard sounds good until after the lottery balls fall, and a last place Flyers team loses out and the pick goes to the Devils for whoever.
Better to draft well, trade smart and develop what you have the best that you can. Looking for help from the lottery is not a viable plan.

There is no viable plan until Clarke and everyone he's ever even been in the same building with are gone.

 

[Rebels57]

I really don't see tanking as a resolution. As we saw in the past, a team can be dead last and deserving of the top pick, with the lottery, the needed benefits do not come. So tanking for Bedard sounds good until after the lottery balls fall, and a last place Flyers team loses out and the pick goes to the Devils for whoever.
Better to draft well, trade smart and develop what you have the best that you can. Looking for help from the lottery is not a viable plan.

Yeah it definitely didn't work for Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Chicago, Tampa Bay, or Colorado.

 

[tucson83]

Yeah it definitely didn't work for Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Chicago, Tampa Bay, or Colorado.

what if they screw us over bedard, you dont care if this team is bad for 20 plus years?

 

[ponder719]

what if they screw us over bedard, you dont care if this team is bad for 20 plus years?

If the choice is "be terrible, with the possibility of something happening that could result in us eventually being great", or 'be mediocre, continue to be mediocre, and not have the possibility of getting much past mediocre," I'll take the first, thanks. I want to win Cups, not lose in the first round year over year. The proven method to win Cups is to be bad until you get the right core pieces to develop into something good. The proven method to never rise to the top is to throw good money after bad to supplement a mediocre core.

Which of the two paths are we on, again?

 

[deadhead]

The Flyers can't really tank, because they don't have veterans with contracts conducive to a sell off this season.

You need to play Hayes for a full season and have him put up 50+ points to be able to trade him next year.
Atkinson might be tradeable, but Torts probably wants to keep him around for the transition. And you won't get much with that contract.
Couts isn't moveable with that contract and his back, but even if he has a big year, he's the veteran you keep to mentor the kids
Ellis has no trade value until he shows he can make it through a season. And even then you won't get much.
So only JVR can be moved, and he only has value with money retained.

Now you could trade Laughton, Provorov, Sanheim, TK if you wanted a big haul for a rebuild.
Lindblom won't get you much.
Risto isn't worth moving until you see if Torts can raise his value.

You're not trading the younger players b/c that would be counterproductive if you're tanking (unless you want to be Edmonton, a couple top players and dreck behind them).

 

[TheKingPin]

I really don't see tanking as a resolution. As we saw in the past, a team can be dead last and deserving of the top pick, with the lottery, the needed benefits do not come. So tanking for Bedard sounds good until after the lottery balls fall, and a last place Flyers team loses out and the pick goes to the Devils for whoever.
Better to draft well, trade smart and develop what you have the best that you can. Looking for help from the lottery is not a viable plan.

And what if they get Bedard? Then they will be good for the next 20 years. Or even a top 3 pick next year. It’s unlikely they will be screwed out of a top 3 pick, more they would jump up on teams.

 

[TB87]

I really don't see tanking as a resolution. As we saw in the past, a team can be dead last and deserving of the top pick, with the lottery, the needed benefits do not come. So tanking for Bedard sounds good until after the lottery balls fall, and a last place Flyers team loses out and the pick goes to the Devils for whoever.
Better to draft well, trade smart and develop what you have the best that you can. Looking for help from the lottery is not a viable plan.

I’m not sure that people realize how good the 2023 draft is. It’s shaping up to have 12-15 star players at the top of the draft. 2023 is THAT good. If you miss out on Bedard, you can absolutely still get a franchise changing talent towards the top of that draft. Losing on purpose (or not) is the best viable path towards relevance again for this team.

The Flyers will not be able to add star players to their roster anytime soon. They have no cap space. Okay prospects. I like quite a few of them, but it’s not likely that there are stars in that bunch. The most direct way to acquire star players is picking towards the top of the draft. Multiple years in a row. Accruing picks in volume as well to give yourself an insurance policy in case some end up as busts. The Hurricane have had a TON of pocks lately and they’re a great team. The Flyers have a dearth of picks in the next few drafts and they’re awful. If they do the Flyers thing=spend to the cap, construct a middling roster, and hope to get lucky in the playoffs…they will continue to accomplish absolutely nothing. Taking a step back is the only way to take massive leaps forward. They’re too prideful to do this though. Which is a f*** you to the fans.

Hextall tried to rebuild but it was only through the draft. Proper roster construction doesn’t work that way. You’ve gotta made good trades an FA signings as well. If they weren’t all delusional morons, they’d do the right thing by the team and focus on losing for the foreseeable future. It is not a guarantee that it’ll work. However, we’ve seen the continued failure of their win-now mentality for almost 50 years. It’s worth it to try something different.

 

[mja]

what if they screw us over bedard, you dont care if this team is bad for 20 plus years?

The current plan of chasing mediocrity is exactly how this team will be bad for 20 plus (more) years and precisely what I'd like to avoid.

Tanking is a loaded word and not particularly useful. It's about being able to realize a plan isn't working and won't work, and then to adjust and go back to the drawing board. We need to re-build or we're not going anywhere. It's really as simple as that. We should stay out of UFA, let our own bad contracts play out rather than move assets to clear space, or to move them for assets if possible. We should be collecting draft picks and prospects, and to weaponize cap space to take on bad contracts for assets in the short term. We should be scouring juniors and the Euro leagues for undrafted free agents with upside. We also need a completely different organizational philosophy.

We're going to be a bottom half in the league team no matter what, but the very worst thing that could happen would be for Chuck to continue to bleed assets in a vain attempt to secure a f***ing playoff berth, thereby hand-cufffing the next GM and prolonging our pain.

 

[TheKingPin]

The Flyers can't really tank, because they don't have veterans with contracts conducive to a sell off this season.

You need to play Hayes for a full season and have him put up 50+ points to be able to trade him next year.
Atkinson might be tradeable, but Torts probably wants to keep him around for the transition. And you won't get much with that contract.
Couts isn't moveable with that contract and his back, but even if he has a big year, he's the veteran you keep to mentor the kids
Ellis has no trade value until he shows he can make it through a season. And even then you won't get much.
So only JVR can be moved, and he only has value with money retained.

Now you could trade Laughton, Provorov, Sanheim, TK if you wanted a big haul for a rebuild.
Lindblom won't get you much.
Risto isn't worth moving until you see if Torts can raise his value.

You're not trading the younger players b/c that would be counterproductive if you're tanking (unless you want to be Edmonton, a couple top players and dreck behind them).

You would only need to potentially tank for 1 more year. You’d have to get lucky but it is what it is. Trading off guys for a long term tank is not necessary but it would be nice.

Couts will be back this season it looks like but always misses time. Hayes won’t play the whole year. No healthy Farabee u till next year likely. Prob no Ellis. It’s possible to be bottom 10 I think.

 

[flyersnorth]

Some might even dare say, that the room definitely is more fractured every day.

Fractured but whole.

 

[TheKingPin]

I’m not sure that people realize how good the 2023 draft is. It’s shaping up to have 12-15 star players at the top of the draft. 2023 is THAT good. If you miss out on Bedard, you can absolutely still get a franchise changing talent towards the top of that draft. Losing on purpose (or not) is the best viable path towards relevance again for this team.

The Flyers will not be able to add star players to their roster anytime soon. They have no cap space. Okay prospects. I like quite a few of them, but it’s not likely that there are stars in that bunch. The most direct way to acquire star players is picking towards the top of the draft. Multiple years in a row. Accruing picks in volume as well to give yourself an insurance policy in case some end up as busts. The Hurricane have had a TON of pocks lately and they’re a great team. The Flyers have a dearth of picks in the next few drafts and they’re awful. If they do the Flyers thing=spend to the cap, construct a middling roster, and hope to get lucky in the playoffs…they will continue to accomplish absolutely nothing. Taking a step back is the only way to take massive leaps forward. They’re too prideful to do this though. Which is a f*** you to the fans.

Hextall tried to rebuild but it was only through the draft. Proper roster construction doesn’t work that way. You’ve gotta made good trades an FA signings as well. If they weren’t all delusional morons, they’d do the right thing by the team and focus on losing for the foreseeable future. It is not a guarantee that it’ll work. However, we’ve seen the continued failure of their win-now mentality for almost 50 years. It’s worth it to try something different.

Missing out on this draft would be a major mistake. It seems like it’s up there with Carter Richard draft where it’s more hoping you don’t take one of the few busts like the rangers.

I’d like to trade Provorov to LA for 1st + Turcotte. Not sure if we add. I don’t think LA has to be a playoff team next year.

 

[TB87]

Missing out on this draft would be a major mistake. It seems like it’s up there with Carter Richard draft where it’s more hoping you don’t take one of the few busts like the rangers.

I’d like to trade Provorov to LA for 1st + Turcotte. Not sure if we add. I don’t think LA has to be a playoff team next year.

I’m not particularly fond of Turcotte. He seems like he’ll become a “fine” middle 6 NHLer. Now, I’d trade Provorov for Olen Zellweger and ANA 23 1st Rd pick (or something like that). Provorov should easily net (even a poor GM like Fletcher) a boatload of assets. He plays lots of minutes, you see…

 

[Curufinwe]

The only time you ever defend the Flyers is when it comes to medical issues and I NEED to know why

It’s a sign off how far gone you are that you think my comment is about defending the Flyers, when it’s simply basic common sense. Disk replacement surgery isn’t like getting a knee scoped.

 

[Curufinwe]

I don't know... Joel hasn't played in nearly 2 months. I've been going through disc issues since late February and knew within 3 weeks if surgery was required or not. Thankfully not required for me.. but i'm still going to physical therapy for it.

So when the PT doesn’t work and you end up having to get the surgery later, is someone going to rage at you for not getting it done earlier?

 

[Rebels57]

It’s a sign off how far gone you are that you think my comment is about defending the Flyers, when it’s simply basic common sense. Disk replacement surgery isn’t like getting a knee scoped.

of*

You have defended the Flyers every single time their medical personnel/decisions are questioned. I'm just curious as to why.

As for Farabee, in this instance I can accept your opinion that they did not want to rush into such a major surgery,

But the Flyers do not deserve any benefit of the doubt when it comes to medical issues. Especially since multiple players just this past season, including Farabee, came back too early from injuries only to be re-injured.

So when the PT doesn’t work and you end up having to get the surgery later, is someone going to rage at you for not getting it done earlier?

When a disc is badly blown out to the point it needs artificial replacement, PT isn't going to do much.. Mine is not nearly that severe thankfully.

My guess is that they told him that even if it heals it has a higher chance of blowing out again in the future (gets easier each time and as you age) so they recommended full replacement.

 

[Beef Invictus]

what if they screw us over bedard, you dont care if this team is bad for 20 plus years?

They're already been bad for ten and if they keep managing the same way they have, they'll be bad for decades to come. There will be no end to their badness if they don't recognize they must rebuild.

 

[Rebels57]

They're already been bad for ten and if they keep managing the same way they have, they'll be bad for decades to come. There will be no end to their badness if they don't recognize they must rebuild.

They will not get past the 2nd round until Bob Clarke is dead. That's a sad fact at this point.

 

[Curufinwe]

The entire NHL is full of players getting injured and reinjured over and over again. The automatic assumption that Flyers players only get injured because of the medical staff is just a coping mechanism for people too childish to accept the reality of the sport.