Prospect Info: 2022-23 Ducks Prospects

[tomd]

I don't get the hate either. Too many guys only think a prospect is good if they put up huge points in junior and don't look at how they put up points.

I have watched Gaucher live a couple times and online over a dozen games, the guy reminds me of a Kesler, Jordan Stall, Danault type. Excellent defensively, and while very likely won't be a point per game guy in the NHL, I fully expect him to be a lockdown defender who chips in 30-50 points. The way he scores, he is not going to see the significant drop off in production that many junior players see when transitioning to higher levels.

I don't think anyone hates Gaucher (I don't) but some people (me included) hated where he was picked. PV went for a need instead of BPA. That is a risky strategy that I don't like. Pick him at 42? Great pick. Pick him at 22? Not so much.

You see him as a 30-50 point player in the NHL which puts him on par with a guy like Lawson Crouse. Great outcome if it happens but he is not nearly the scorer that Crouse was in junior. I see him as a Derek Grant type who can anchor a 4th line and maybe get 10-12 goals in his prime. Is that worth passing on potential 30 goal scorers in Snuggerud or Kulich? Reasonable people can disagree but I don't think so.

A great comp for Gaucher is Groulx. Both have about the same size and skillset more or less. Groulx is probably a bit better offensively but Gaucher has an edge in physicality. Skating and puck skills are probably comparable. Five years after being drafted, Groulx is still in the AHL and looks like he has a ceiling of 4C. I see more or less the same outcome for Gaucher. The difference is that one was taken 30 spots higher than the other.

 

[MMC]

PV went for a need instead of BPA. That is a risky strategy that I don't like.

Then I'd advise you to not look at it this way when there's no basis for it. What makes you think we didn't see Gaucher as the best prospect available at 22? Just because you don't?

 

[nbducksfan19]

I don't think anyone hates Gaucher (I don't) but some people (me included) hated where he was picked. PV went for a need instead of BPA. That is a risky strategy that I don't like. Pick him at 42? Great pick. Pick him at 22? Not so much.

You see him as a 30-50 point player in the NHL which puts him on par with a guy like Lawson Crouse. Great outcome if it happens but he is not nearly the scorer that Crouse was in junior. I see him as a Derek Grant type who can anchor a 4th line and maybe get 10-12 goals in his prime. Is that worth passing on potential 30 goal scorers in Snuggerud or Kulich? Reasonable people can disagree but I don't think so.

A great comp for Gaucher is Groulx. Both have about the same size and skillset more or less. Groulx is probably a bit better offensively but Gaucher has an edge in physicality. Skating and puck skills are probably comparable. Five years after being drafted, Groulx is still in the AHL and looks like he has a ceiling of 4C. I see more or less the same outcome for Gaucher. The difference is that one was taken 30 spots higher than the other.

These types of statements always make me laugh. How do you know it wasn't BPA for our draft board. How do you know he would be there at 42? So many posters speak about the draft like every GM uses Bob Mckenzie's rankings and if you deviate from that you are reaching for a need.

 

[tomd]

Then I'd advise you to not look at it this way when there's no basis for it. What makes you think we didn't see Gaucher as the best prospect available at 22? Just because you don't?

Based on the team's ability over the past 10 years to draft an NHL caliber forward outside of the top 9, I am skeptical that the scouts can competently assess forward talent.

These types of statements always make me laugh. How do you know it wasn't BPA for our draft board. How do you know he would be there at 42? So many posters speak about the draft like every GM uses Bob Mckenzie's rankings and if you deviate from that you are reaching for a need.

After seeing what Snuggerud and Kulich did in their D+1 seasons and how they were pretty consistently rated above Gaucher, I'm not laughing. Glad you are though.

 

[goonsaredumb]

These types of statements always make me laugh. How do you know it wasn't BPA for our draft board. How do you know he would be there at 42? So many posters speak about the draft like every GM uses Bob Mckenzie's rankings and if you deviate from that you are reaching for a need.

also worth noting Bob McKenzie's rankings had Gaucher 20th overall, Snuggerud 19th overall and Kulich 40th overall, so even only using McKenzie's rankings as a template it wasn't seen as a reach over those other guys that people have latched themselves onto in the year since the draft.

Edit: nevermind this was mid-season rankings, end season rankings where a different story but Gaucher was still 28th overall not a massive reach

 

[nbducksfan19]

Based on the team's ability over the past 10 years to draft an NHL caliber forward outside of the top 9, I am skeptical that the scouts can competently assess forward talent.


After seeing what Snuggerud and Kulich did in their D+1 seasons and how they were pretty consistently rated above Gaucher, I'm not laughing. Glad you are though.

What is this backwards logic?! You can't say the GM didn't draft BPA on his board based on what happened in their D+1 years. That is not how it works...

 

[tomd]

What is this backwards logic?! You can't say the GM didn't draft BPA on his board based on what happened in their D+1 years. That is not how it works...

When most rankings had both of them above Gaucher before the draft I can certainly use that logic.

Look, I know that the first commandment on HF is "Thou shalt not criticize your own team's prospects" but I disagree with that line of thinking. I hope he proves me wrong and if he does I'll be the first to admit it. I hope you'll do the same if he becomes Groulx v2 or Grant v2.

 

[nbducksfan19]

When most rankings had both of them above Gaucher before the draft I can certainly use that logic.

Look, I know that the first commandment on HF is "Thou shalt not criticize your own team's prospects" but I disagree with that line of thinking. I hope he proves me wrong and if he does I'll be the first to admit it. I hope you'll do the same if he becomes Groulx v2 or Grant v2.

Ok, it's wild that you don't get it. The fact that most rankings have Snuggard/Kulich above Gaucher, does not prove that PV had them higher. No sense in arguing with someone with this little deductive reasoning.

Look, I am not saying that Kulich/Snuggard aren't higher end prospects today. However, it is idiocy to claim that you know PV did not draft based on BPA from his draft board simply because other rankings had them high and they had good D+1 seasons.

 

[tomd]

also worth noting Bob McKenzie's rankings had Gaucher 20th overall, Snuggerud 19th overall and Kulich 40th overall, so even only using McKenzie's rankings as a template it wasn't seen as a reach over those other guys that people have latched themselves onto in the year since the draft.

Edit: nevermind this was mid-season rankings, end season rankings where a different story but Gaucher was still 28th overall not a massive reach

And Snuggerud and Kulich were 17th and 18th, respectively.

Ok, it's wild that you don't get it. The fact that most rankings have Snuggard/Kulich above Gaucher, does not prove that PV had them higher. No sense in arguing with someone with this little deductive reasoning.

Look, I am not saying that Kulich/Snuggard aren't higher end prospects today. However, it is idiocy to claim that you know PV did not draft based on BPA from his draft board simply because other rankings had them high and they had good D+1 seasons.

My point is that the Ducks have been underwhelming in drafting forwards outside the top 9. I have no doubt that PV had Gaucher higher BECAUSE HE WANTED A PLAYER WITH SIZE. He went for need instead of BPA. Why should I have any confidence in their rankings after the debacles of Tracey and Perreault?

 

[DavidBL]

And Snuggerud and Kulich were 17th and 18th, respectively.


My point is that the Ducks have been underwhelming in drafting forwards outside the top 9. I have no doubt that PV had Gaucher higher BECAUSE HE WANTED A PLAYER WITH SIZE. He went for need instead of BPA. Why should I have any confidence in their rankings after the debacles of Tracey and Perreault?

Imo there are a lot of considerations on what makes the BPA. In the past the Ducks as a whole have always drafted on the "safer" side with their top picks. Ie guys most likely to make the NHL over guys with the highest ceiling. I'm pretty sure BM even talked about this once. There is simple logic to it too. An NHL player is more valuable than an AHL scorer who never makes the it to the NHL. Even if it's a 3rd or 4th rounder. We can debate the merits but I'd say PV probably went with the safest pick. There is an argument that it wasn't an organizational need as we don't really want or need a 3rd or 4th liner.

 

[Kalv]

Lots of fighting over what BPA means to each of us... I'm with @tomd on this one as being a bit underwhelmed of this pick and just like him I'll gladly be one of the first people to admit we're wrong if he come out guns blazing.
Nothing wrong with adding player like Gaucher to the system, but it leaves you wanting more when you see other players left on board that a lot of people knew were intriguing at that point. This was the top piece we got back in Lindholms trade and in the WJC he played without the puck a lot, because he usually quickly gave it away when he got it, and similar stuff I saw in his highlights in Q.
Anyway, it's not the players fault, nobody's hating him, but rather the orgs decision. I'm intrigued he seems to be playing better in the playoffs tho, currently their 2nd best scorer. So I still have hope that I'm the one being wrong, lol

 

[GunnarStahl]

We’re Snuggerud and Kulich even highly discussed prospects for the 22nd slot on the Ducks forums before the draft? Obviously would have been good picks in hindsight just going off of what has developed since the draft. But those aren’t names I recall be largely discussed, the names for 22nd I remember being talked about were Bichsel and Lambert, I think Ohgren as well.

I get looking at those two guys and thinking maybe those would have been better pick ups. But it also has started feeling like people have made the narrative that these were clear cut choices on draft day and to my knowledge that was not the narrative.

It would be like me saying, Murray and Madden really dropped the ball not taking Thompson where they took Jones. Yeah, definitely would have been a great pick, but primarily because of knowledge gained in post. And it’s not like the entire hockey community was on the same page he was BPA at the time.

 

[nbducksfan19]

And Snuggerud and Kulich were 17th and 18th, respectively.


My point is that the Ducks have been underwhelming in drafting forwards outside the top 9. I have no doubt that PV had Gaucher higher BECAUSE HE WANTED A PLAYER WITH SIZE. He went for need instead of BPA. Why should I have any confidence in their rankings after the debacles of Tracey and Perreault?

So what is BPA to you? Who draft ranking consensus has highest ranked? Who scored the most points in their draft year? Or is BPA the player who will be the best (like GM’s have a crystal ball?) Again, I have no idea if if was a “need” pick or a pick PV made because he felt most confident in his ability to be a valuable NHLer.

 

[tomd]

So what is BPA to you? Who draft ranking consensus has highest ranked? Who scored the most points in their draft year? Or is BPA the player who will be the best (like GM’s have a crystal ball?) Again, I have no idea if if was a “need” pick or a pick PV made because he felt most confident in his ability to be a valuable NHLer.

Each team has their own list and I understand that. But PV specifically stated that Gaucher had the size that he felt was lacking on the team and that was a strong consideration in making the pick. Add to that the fact that PV didn't take a single player under 6'2". Seems pretty obvious that size was a primary focus...not necessarily to the exclusion of talent but definitely a priority.

On the plus side, Gaucher's playoff numbers are encouraging (given it is a small sample size against pretty mediocre competition) after what could only be considered a very average regular season.

 

[Lucky Luke]

Did the Ducks acquire Dean from St.Louis?!

My bad.
I meant Lundy.

 

[Deuce22]

Why is it that when the Ducks defensive prospects put up a ton of points the prospect criticizers on this board say, "What about their defense?" And when the Ducks draft a forward that plays good defense and is physical, they say, "What about his offensive numbers?" Aren't people evaluating based on what they think a defenseman or a forward SHOULD look like? Instead of evaluating based on what these players do well. Are all good defensemen tall? Or do they all stay in their own zone and guard the crease the entire game? Do all effective forwards have great hands and skate like the wind? It seems to me that some minds need to open up a bit.

 

[goonsaredumb]

On the plus side, Gaucher's playoff numbers are encouraging (given it is a small sample size against pretty mediocre competition) after what could only be considered a very average regular season.

This is my number one problem with your Anti-Gaucher schtick, If it was as simple as "I like Kulich/Snuggerud more than Gaucher and think they are better players" I wouldn't even have a problem with it, I don't even disagree with that at all, it's just every single time he does something (or doesn't do something) even if it's something good you always have some way of making it out to be a bad thing or less of an accomplishment

Wins Defensive forward of the Year? Here's some bad player who also won Defensive forward of the Year

Doing good in the playoffs? Yeah but it was against weak competition so it doesn't really matter

etc. etc. you always manage to turn everything he does into a negative no matter what it is

 

[tomd]

This is my number one problem with your Anti-Gaucher schtick, If it was as simple as "I like Kulich/Snuggerud more than Gaucher and think they are better players" I wouldn't even have a problem with it, I don't even disagree with that at all, it's just every single time he does something (or doesn't do something) even if it's something good you always have some way of making it out to be a bad thing or less of an accomplishment

Wins Defensive forward of the Year? Here's some bad player who also won Defensive forward of the Year

Doing good in the playoffs? Yeah but it was against weak competition so it doesn't really matter

etc. etc. you always manage to turn everything he does into a negative no matter what it is

Not really fair...

I posted the list of previous winners with no commentary whatsoever. How can that be construed as negative?

Quebec has faced some bad competition in the 1st 2 rounds of the playoffs. Is that wrong to point out? I started the sentence saying I was encouraged...isn't that positive?

I'm rooting for him but this was a year that he should have taken a big step forward offensively and he didn't. That's a huge concern if you are hoping for him to be anything above a 4th liner in the NHL. Maybe he can make us all feel better with a huge playoff and Memorial Cup.

 

[Kalv]

We’re Snuggerud and Kulich even highly discussed prospects for the 22nd slot on the Ducks forums before the draft? Obviously would have been good picks in hindsight just going off of what has developed since the draft. But those aren’t names I recall be largely discussed, the names for 22nd I remember being talked about were Bichsel and Lambert, I think Ohgren as well.

I get looking at those two guys and thinking maybe those would have been better pick ups. But it also has started feeling like people have made the narrative that these were clear cut choices on draft day and to my knowledge that was not the narrative.

It would be like me saying, Murray and Madden really dropped the ball not taking Thompson where they took Jones. Yeah, definitely would have been a great pick, but primarily because of knowledge gained in post. And it’s not like the entire hockey community was on the same page he was BPA at the time.

Oh, absolutely some part of the frustration has been because we have failed to identify F talent with our late 1sts since Rakell.
I cannot recall any players outside than Bichsel that was widely talked about here, I can def remember at least some mentioning Kulich and Snuggerud. But again, it's more about that talent identification that hurts. We're great with D identification but lack the same with F. Overall we still draft very solid obviously.

Looking at Thompson in 2016 draft certainly hurts as well

 

[Mr Rogers]

Oh, absolutely some part of the frustration has been because we have failed to identify F talent with our late 1sts since Rakell.
I cannot recall any players outside than Bichsel that was widely talked about here, I can def remember at least some mentioning Kulich and Snuggerud. But again, it's more about that talent identification that hurts. We're great with D identification but lack the same with F. Overall we still draft very solid obviously.

Looking at Thompson in 2016 draft certainly hurts as well

Yeah, our drafting of forwards leaves something to be desired. Although I will say when we absolutely had to come thru on picks - thinking #9 in 2019 and #3 in 2021, we've come through on forwards. it seems like we're more likely to flub those later 1st round picks, which isn't that surprising given it's later in the round, but other teams are finding guys that we consistently aren't.

 

[DavidBL]

Yeah, our drafting of forwards leaves something to be desired. Although I will say when we absolutely had to come thru on picks - thinking #9 in 2019 and #3 in 2021, we've come through on forwards. it seems like we're more likely to flub those later 1st round picks, which isn't that surprising given it's later in the round, but other teams are finding guys that we consistently aren't.

Not sure it's really limited to forwards. Larsson was a miss too. Though I suppose Theodore was a hit with a late first. Really 2015-2018 were pretty rough all around.

 

[Gliff]

Not sure it's really limited to forwards. Larsson was a miss too. Though I suppose Theodore was a hit with a late first. Really 2015-2018 were pretty rough all around.

I truly think Larsson was a victim of his injury in his d+1(2?). He was looking so good in the SHL before that and never looked the same after.

Regardless, everyone needs to remember the Ducks are the best drafting team in the league. No one is perfect. Only like 60% of 1st rounders okay 100 games and the Ducks are 13/13 from 08-18. But they still will miss some.

 

[ScarTroy]

Gaucher may not look like the sexy pick, but I definitely appreciate Verbeek has a plan and wants to stick with it. Time will tell whether he was right, but I respect he’s going in a direction and actively building towards that end goal.

 

[Kalv]

Gaucher may not look like the sexy pick, but I definitely appreciate Verbeek has a plan and wants to stick with it. Time will tell whether he was right, but I respect he’s going in a direction and actively building towards that end goal.

This I agree with, even if I am not the biggest fan of that pick. Which is perhaps a bit contradicting. But I like us getting bigger, plus I think he did fantastic with Luneau and Hvidston picks. Warren as well, but he got injuries

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I don't think anyone hates Gaucher (I don't) but some people (me included) hated where he was picked. PV went for a need instead of BPA. That is a risky strategy that I don't like. Pick him at 42? Great pick. Pick him at 22? Not so much.

You see him as a 30-50 point player in the NHL which puts him on par with a guy like Lawson Crouse. Great outcome if it happens but he is not nearly the scorer that Crouse was in junior. I see him as a Derek Grant type who can anchor a 4th line and maybe get 10-12 goals in his prime. Is that worth passing on potential 30 goal scorers in Snuggerud or Kulich? Reasonable people can disagree but I don't think so.

A great comp for Gaucher is Groulx. Both have about the same size and skillset more or less. Groulx is probably a bit better offensively but Gaucher has an edge in physicality. Skating and puck skills are probably comparable. Five years after being drafted, Groulx is still in the AHL and looks like he has a ceiling of 4C. I see more or less the same outcome for Gaucher. The difference is that one was taken 30 spots higher than the other.

Gaucher is a bigger, meaner, and faster straight line skater (but turns like a huge cruise liner) Groulx. Gaucher was rated as a safer pick to make the NHL, implying less risk.

Verbeek has a set preference. That is his version of BPA and we can't judge the pick until years later when we can see if the pick make the NHL and how much of an impact in the NHL.

Under Murray, the Ducks took a big swing on top-6 forwards late in the first round.
- 2019: 29th, LW Tracey
- 2020: 27th, RW Perreault

Tracey was a late bloomer and Perreault dropped due to lack of motor, but has Lucas Raymond tool kit. I wanted D Thrun instead of Tracey. Others wanted F Kaliyev instead of Tracey due to the Zegras-WJC chemistry connection. Snuggerud and Kulich fit the Murray preference as his BPA swing.

Remember when people scoffed when Murray drafted Lindholm 6th overall when he was projected in the mid-teens? We really can't tell how the draft pans out. Right now, Snuggerud and Kulich's offense have taken off, but they're top-6 scorers. Gaucher is a shutdown C who can muck it up in front of the net for dirty goals. Verbeek's selection of Gaucher could be Verbeek's way of "roster balancing with physicality".

I'm pro duck and hope Gaucher brings an element to makes us forget about Snuggerud and Kulich. Hell, I'm still holding out hope for both Tracey and Perreault.