Rumor: 2022-2023 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: The Search for a 2C

[redacted]

When did I say he wasn’t a major piece? Or we win without him. It’s not debatable because nobody has ever tried to debate that. You said the Avs didn’t win with him playing like a 2C. We had him for 3 runs and 1 he was suspended, 1 he was PPG+ and 1 he was just under PPG and we won the cup.

I just said he was much better in the regular season than he was in the playoffs. I don’t see how that’s debatable. I don’t think he was 1C caliber in the playoffs. I think it’s important because there’s 0% chance we ever replace his regular season production. His playoff performance is atleast in the realm of possibility or atleast getting close to that. We went 16-4 and crushed teams last year so it’s completely possible you could win with a “normal” 2C but you’d just be less dominant. Like Horvat likely doesn’t keep pace and does what Kadri did the regular season but he could be 70% of what Kadri was in the playoffs last year. Maybe even more if he stayed healthy.

Kadri wasn’t much better in the regular season though… he stepped up to another level in the playoffs. Of all players who played more than 7 games in the playoffs, he was second in xGF%. Dude was flat out playing at a very high level. There are a lot of factors that go into winning in the playoffs, but his play is something the Avs had to have. Replacing that will be incredibly difficult. Avs have not shown the ability to advance without incredibly good 2nd line play. To do so without that, they’ll need a lot better 3rd line play.

Horvat is closer to a 1C than a run of the mill 2C.

I’m not saying it is utterly impossible for the Avs to win without a Kadri like performance… I’m saying only making a move for a run of the mill 2C will require more. If you make only one significant move, it has to be a high end center nearing or is playing like a 1C.

 

[ANewHope]

Kadri wasn’t much better in the regular season though… he stepped up to another level in the playoffs. Of all players who played more than 7 games in the playoffs, he was second in xGF%. Dude was flat out playing at a very high level. There are a lot of factors that go into winning in the playoffs, but his play is something the Avs had to have. Replacing that will be incredibly difficult. Avs have not shown the ability to advance without incredibly good 2nd line play. To do so without that, they’ll need a lot better 3rd line play.

Horvat is closer to a 1C than a run of the mill 2C.

I’m not saying it is utterly impossible for the Avs to win without a Kadri like performance… I’m saying only making a move for a run of the mill 2C will require more. If you make only one significant move, it has to be a high end center nearing or is playing like a 1C.

Yeah I just disagree. That’s one stat. He was also getting less ice time by the time we faced Tampa and he returned. Kadri like most players put up a better performance in the regular season. I honestly don’t think it’s crazy to compare MacKinnon/Kadri in the regular season last year. It would be in the playoffs tho. I could see the argument for Kadri being our best forward in the regular season honestly.

I’ve never once said and honestly I’ve never seen anyone say Kadri wasn’t a major piece or will be easy to replace. I just think his playoff production is far more doable than getting a 90 point regular season player.

It’s also important to point out the difference between winning a cup and winning one in one of the more dominant runs in recent history. Like yeah you’d need a high end C to go 16-4 again. You don’t need to go 16-4 to win a cup tho.

Kadri also missed 4 games. Didn’t he get hurt early in that game as well? So basically 5 games. The 3 games against Tampa he was playing under 19 minutes and was pretty sheltered that one game. Massive goal and we don’t win the cup without his performance vs the Blues/massive goal vs Tampa but it’s just way more realistic to replace what he did in the playoffs especially with the injury.

 

[redacted]

Yeah I just disagree. That’s one stat. He was also getting less ice time by the time we faced Tampa and he returned. Kadri like most players put up a better performance in the regular season. I honestly don’t think it’s crazy to compare MacKinnon/Kadri in the regular season last year. It would be in the playoffs tho. I could see the argument for Kadri being our best forward in the regular season honestly.

I’ve never once said and honestly I’ve never seen anyone say Kadri wasn’t a major piece or will be easy to replace. I just think his playoff production is far more doable than getting a 90 point regular season player.

It’s also important to point out the difference between winning a cup and winning one in one of the more dominant runs in recent history. Like yeah you’d need a high end C to go 16-4 again. You don’t need to go 16-4 to win a cup tho.

Kadri also missed 4 games. Didn’t he get hurt early in that game as well? So basically 5 games. The 3 games against Tampa he was playing under 19 minutes and was pretty sheltered that one game. Massive goal and we don’t win the cup without his performance vs the Blues/massive goal vs Tampa but it’s just way more realistic to replace what he did in the playoffs especially with the injury.

You can go through a number of stats and show he’s top 10ish in most of them. His performance was phenomenal in his games.

 

[Balthazar]

Superior goaltending will have to make up for the gap between last year's Kadri and whoever we have at 2C next playoffs.

 

[Vaslof]

I'm more worried about Landy's and Nuke's injuries than the lack of 2C. We'll need them at their best in the playoffs. Their salaries combine for over 13M and like 15% of our cap.

 

[dahrougem2]

I'm more worried about Landy's and Nuke's injuries than the lack of 2C. We'll need them at their best in the playoffs. Their salaries combine for over 13M and like 15% of our cap.

Nichushkin will be fine IMO. Peter Baugh confirmed the ankle injury is unrelated to the foot injury he suffered in last year's SCF.

Landeskog needs to take all the time he can to get as healthy as possible. Not trying to watch this dude limp around for another playoff run.

 

[ANewHope]

You can go through a number of stats and show he’s top 10ish in most of them. His performance was phenomenal in his games.

Yeah he was great. I just think he was better in the regular season. I see an argument for him being our best forward where as I don’t see one for him being our best forward in the playoffs. I also think you can make an argument that for like 8/20 games he wasn’t completely healthy.

I think there’s a pretty solid argument that with a lesser 2C you could/can win a cup it’ll just be a less dominant. I think that’s more realistic than the Avs replacing Kadri/Buras production in the regular season. I don’t think we’ll ever have a 90 point 2C in the regular season again with this core. I do think we could get a 2C that still allows us to have a chance at a cup.

 

[95snipes]

If the Capitals are out of it come trade deadline, Garnet Hathaway would be a monster add to our bottom 6. Could make a similar impact that Matt Calvert did.

 

[Pokecheque]

If the Capitals are out of it come trade deadline, Garnet Hathaway would be a monster add to our bottom 6. Could make a similar impact that Matt Calvert did.

Feck no I don't want that cheap shot artist. Avs don't need another guy who takes dumb penalties, certainly not with their PK the way it currently is. Even improved they're still giving up at least one PPG on average.

 

[95snipes]

Feck no I don't want that cheap shot artist. Avs don't need another guy who takes dumb penalties, certainly not with their PK the way it currently is. Even improved they're still giving up at least one PPG on average.

Say what you want, but he'd be our best player after Rodriguez. And can play any style you want.

He's also elite at drawing penalties. Not bad for a team with the number 1 power play in the NHL.

 

[redacted]

Yeah he was great. I just think he was better in the regular season. I see an argument for him being our best forward where as I don’t see one for him being our best forward in the playoffs. I also think you can make an argument that for like 8/20 games he wasn’t completely healthy.

I think there’s a pretty solid argument that with a lesser 2C you could/can win a cup it’ll just be a less dominant. I think that’s more realistic than the Avs replacing Kadri/Buras production in the regular season. I don’t think we’ll ever have a 90 point 2C in the regular season again with this core. I do think we could get a 2C that still allows us to have a chance at a cup.

There are a number of mixes that can work. For the Avs and making only one move, you'd need an incredible 2C to make it work. I'd say for a run of the mill 2C, you need to dramatically improve the 3rd line as well. Last playoffs having Burkie help out on the 3rd line was huge. ERod helps some of that, but he's not Burkie. Need another player to help there to make up for having a weaker 2nd line than last year.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Say what you want, but he'd be our best player after Rodriguez. And can play any style you want.

He's also elite at drawing penalties. Not bad for a team with the number 1 power play in the NHL.

No he would not

 

[ANewHope]

There are a number of mixes that can work. For the Avs and making only one move, you'd need an incredible 2C to make it work. I'd say for a run of the mill 2C, you need to dramatically improve the 3rd line as well. Last playoffs having Burkie help out on the 3rd line was huge. ERod helps some of that, but he's not Burkie. Need another player to help there to make up for having a weaker 2nd line than last year.

Yeah or you could just have more realistic expectations and not expect to lose 4 games for the entire run. Avs cup run was one of the more dominant runs in recent history. I don’t think there’s really any moves to be made that’ll have that happen again. Especially when you factor in Kadri was banged up and Burkie was getting healthy scratched.

Burkie was super underrated in the regular season here. We won’t replace that this year IMO. His playoff role is replaceable. Especially if you get someone better defensively even if there abit worse offensively. He played 12 playoff games last year and a few of them he wasn’t even seeing 10 minutes of ice time. He probably had like 3-4 good playoff games honestly.

 

[redacted]

Yeah or you could just have more realistic expectations and not expect to lose 4 games for the entire run. Avs cup run was one of the more dominant runs in recent history. I don’t think there’s really any moves to be made that’ll have that happen again. Especially when you factor in Kadri was banged up and Burkie was getting healthy scratched.

Burkie was super underrated in the regular season here. We won’t replace that this year IMO. His playoff role is replaceable. Especially if you get someone better defensively even if there abit worse offensively. He played 12 playoff games last year and a few of them he wasn’t even seeing 10 minutes of ice time. He probably had like 3-4 good playoff games honestly.

The 16-4 bit is due partially to the weakness in the central and west as a whole, that'll be narrowed to begin with. On that though, part of the reason the Avs could play like they did and fair well is they just didn't play many games. The more a team plays, the more wear and tear happens... the more depth gets tested. The NHL is filled with small margins and chips that have to fall right. When the margin gets tighter, the tougher it simply becomes.

 

[Muffin]

Superior goaltending will have to make up for the gap between last year's Kadri and whoever we have at 2C next playoffs.

This is a better team than last year if we get a 2C at the deadline. Much better goaltending and ERod is a far better 3C than Compher.

Our "second line" currently would literally be the 3rd line when the team is healthy.

Landeskog-MacKinnon-Nuke
Lehkonen-2C-Rantanen
Newhook-ERod-Compher
LOC-Helm-Cogliano

 

[dahrougem2]

This is a better team than last year if we get a 2C at the deadline. Much better goaltending and ERod is a far better 3C than Compher.

Landeskog-MacKinnon-Nuke
Lehkonen-2C-Rantanen
Newhook-ERod-Compher
LOC-Helm-Cogliano

Oh I don't know about that at all. The 2C will have to be better than Kadri, which you'll be hard pressed to get that caliber of player at the TDL.

On top of that, Burakovsky is way better than anyone on that 3rd line and he's no longer here. Having him on the 3rd line and PP2 was an insane luxury.

 

[ANewHope]

The 16-4 bit is due partially to the weakness in the central and west as a whole, that'll be narrowed to begin with. On that though, part of the reason the Avs could play like they did and fair well is they just didn't play many games. The more a team plays, the more wear and tear happens... the more depth gets tested. The NHL is filled with small margins and chips that have to fall right. When the margin gets tighter, the tougher it simply becomes.

I mean I’d say our depth got tested. We ran JT Compher at 2C in crucial games. Everyone was banged up like most teams. I don’t think playing 20 games vs 24 was a big reason we played like we did. Nobody could skate with us. Makar went god mode.

Yeah the West wasn’t strong but it was an insanely dominant run anyway you want to slice it. It’s possible to win a cup and not just crush every team. I’d argue a team like St Louis ended up being better suited for the playoffs than a team like Florida in the end as well. The Avs can get a lesser 2C and still compete for a cup assuming we get healthy it’s just not going to be as dominant.

 

[Pokecheque]

I mean, the Avs HAD to play that well in the postseason because they had far and away the worst goaltending of any team in the postseason. And that's not even meant as a huge dig on Kuemper--dude literally could not see pucks in the crease area (though I maintain he stunk it up in the latter part of the regular season and initial part of the postseason before the eye injury). The fact he toughed it out through all that is a testament to him.

They should be getting better goaltending this time around, but Georgie isn't one of those guys who can pull an Otter and go on an elite-level run. He's been really good thus far but he won't bail them out. Avs are eventually going to have to address the 2C issue, and I think the solution will have to come from outside the organization. How that shakes out, I don't know, but I'm fine with them weathering the storm and waiting to get some healthy bodies back before the deadline.

 

[redacted]

I mean I’d say our depth got tested. We ran JT Compher at 2C in crucial games. Everyone was banged up like most teams. I don’t think playing 20 games vs 24 was a big reason we played like we did. Nobody could skate with us. Makar went god mode.

Yeah the West wasn’t strong but it was an insanely dominant run anyway you want to slice it. It’s possible to win a cup and not just crush every team. I’d argue a team like St Louis ended up being better suited for the playoffs than a team like Florida in the end as well. The Avs can get a lesser 2C and still compete for a cup assuming we get healthy it’s just not going to be as dominant.

I had this debate earlier this summer and it convinced me. If you look back statistically at teams in the playoffs, there is a decided advantage to teams that play less games in the 3rd and 4th rounds. I'd have to go back to my buddy and get the stats (I'm too lazy to calculate them all myself), but it is something bonkers that teams in the 3rd round that play 10 or less games win the 3rd round like 80+% of the time and teams that get into the Cup Finals in 16 or less games are 75+%. I was on the side that it didn't much matter the number of games, but evidence is evidence. It seems to be a very decided advantage.

It was a very dominant run. I just don't agree that an average 2C is all this team needs. An elite 2C/1C, I could get behind one piece. An average 2C, a high end 3rd liner (ideally center), and getting the PK group fully healthy (if not adding to that).

 

[95snipes]

No he would not

I meant forward. He's at least better than LOC, Helm, Cogliano for sure. Compher might be a stretch by the stats, but meh, I'm not a Compher fan unless it game 6 against STL.

Oh well, just my opinion. He's a polarizing player I guess. Love him if he's on your team, hate him if he's on the other team.

 

[Balthazar]

I had this debate earlier this summer and it convinced me. If you look back statistically at teams in the playoffs, there is a decided advantage to teams that play less games in the 3rd and 4th rounds

Don't you mean 1st and 2nd round? I mean it doesn't make sense to have an advantage to play fewer games in the 4th round since both teams have to play the same number of games.

 

[AvsCOL]

Would be a really good buy low candidate. Right shot centreman who’s underperforming. The tools are definitely there.

 

[redacted]

Don't you mean 1st and 2nd round? I mean it doesn't make sense to have an advantage to play fewer games in the 4th round since both teams have to play the same number of games.

I probably didn't state clearly... teams that play less games in the 1st and 2nd rounds, have a decided advantage in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

 

[dahrougem2]

Would be a really good buy low candidate. Right shot centreman who’s underperforming. The tools are definitely there.

Might as well pencil him in now since he's a Blue Jacket.

 

[ANewHope]

I had this debate earlier this summer and it convinced me. If you look back statistically at teams in the playoffs, there is a decided advantage to teams that play less games in the 3rd and 4th rounds. I'd have to go back to my buddy and get the stats (I'm too lazy to calculate them all myself), but it is something bonkers that teams in the 3rd round that play 10 or less games win the 3rd round like 80+% of the time and teams that get into the Cup Finals in 16 or less games are 75+%. I was on the side that it didn't much matter the number of games, but evidence is evidence. It seems to be a very decided advantage.

It was a very dominant run. I just don't agree that an average 2C is all this team needs. An elite 2C/1C, I could get behind one piece. An average 2C, a high end 3rd liner (ideally center), and getting the PK group fully healthy (if not adding to that).

I actually don’t doubt that. We were in that position because of how dominant we were tho. That’s why we had that advantage. We’ll never know for sure but I think it was just the Avs year. We just looked so much better than everyone. 20 or 25 games I think they win. Regardless it was one of the more dominant runs no matter how you break it down and you don’t always need to win a cup that way. I personally think the days of Avs dominance is already over. Doesn’t mean we can’t add a 2C and be a team that needs some luck/right matchups to get another one.

I think health is the biggest obstacle right now. If we get reasonably healthy, add someone like Toews/Gourde, and grab some depth I think well have top 5-6 odds at a cup.