2022-2023 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

[BadgersandBlues]

It's interesting that Armstrong specified the money aspect of Chief's quote. Marek did the same on his show where he covered it originally. Sounds like talking about how much the players make and all that is a pretty big hot button issue - like a third rail type thing.

Anyone else feel like Schenn is actively playing his way out of the Captaincy? He's been absolutely brutal since we moved ROR and Accari. Since then we've played 9 games and he's got 1G 1A (Both in the same game against San Jose) for 2 points while posting a -9. Plus he hasn't looked engaged at all most nights.

Strangely enough, the one guy who I think has stepped up his game is Krug. Parayko still shows his flashes, and I have no clue WTF Faulk is doing 1/2 the time (Talk about freelance) - Krug has actually been playing his tail off. You could tell that he was actively frustrated multiple times with Kyrou on the PP last night. Speaking of which, holy shit is Kyrou broken right now. Just like a puppy getting whipped. Hope he figures it out.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I also only half watched about half of this one. I spent more time watching other games than our game.

And this is why multi-year tank/rebuilds are so damn hard to sell to an ownership group. Even the people who care most about the team and support the process/goals of a rebuild are going to spend less time/money on your product the longer your product is terrible. There was tangible excitement and optimism around this team less than 4 months ago. This team had as many wins as it did total losses less than 2 months ago (23-20-3 on 1/19/23). We've really just started being truly awful and you've already got people tuning out.

I don't blame anyone. I'm included in the group. I'm about 90% I'm not renewing my season tickets next year. This post isn't meant to insult anyone's fandom or commitment. Watching a crappy product sucks and you shouldn't use your entertainment time/dollars on something that you know is going to put you in a worse mood.

But it is a very real consideration for teams.

this is i think ultimately largest part of why we picked up kap and vrana. DA knows it's unlikely they will become part of core, but need to be able to sell hope to fans now. hope to contend for playoffs next year. hope to at least be entertaining and not lose 5-1 every game. bc nobody wants to buy season tickets or luxury boxes to watch that. everyone knows we aren't gonna be contenders next couple years, but there needs to be something worth watching because once folks cancel those tix it's super hard to get them to come back. and i think that is far more important to franchise than whatever 2nd or 3rd we get at TDL for guys next year.

 

[oPlaiD]

This is true, but when the Blues were still not playoff contenders it was compelling to tune in when there were several young players breaking into the league. I don’t have the same sense now, although you could put Neighbors in that class. Perhaps it had to do with how Davidson marketed the rookies in the Oshie, Berglund, Perron, EJ era.

I mean it may not feel like it after the career he's had, but no prospect we have right now compares to what EJ was expected to bring to the ice. If we had a #1 OA pick on our team next season (even one that wasn't in the Bedard or even the Fantilli tier), that'd go a lot further towards drumming up excitement than what we have right now.

We're also in an awkward spot because the top 4 defense are all veterans signed for 4 more years. So if they look bad now, that doesn't leave much room to hope for the future.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

It's interesting that Armstrong specified the money aspect of Chief's quote. Marek did the same on his show where he covered it originally. Sounds like talking about how much the players make and all that is a pretty big hot button issue - like a third rail type thing.

Anyone else feel like Schenn is actively playing his way out of the Captaincy? He's been absolutely brutal since we moved ROR and Accari. Since then we've played 9 games and he's got 1G 1A (Both in the same game against San Jose) for 2 points while posting a -9. Plus he hasn't looked engaged at all most nights.

Strangely enough, the one guy who I think has stepped up his game is Krug. Parayko still shows his flashes, and I have no clue WTF Faulk is doing 1/2 the time (Talk about freelance) - Krug has actually been playing his tail off. You could tell that he was actively frustrated multiple times with Kyrou on the PP last night. Speaking of which, holy shit is Kyrou broken right now. Just like a puppy getting whipped. Hope he figures it out.

krug looks better because we are asking less of him. salary aside, if we keep him on pp1 but sheltered on 3rd pairing otherwise he can be quality player for us.

 

[bleedblue1223]

krug looks better because we are asking less of him. salary aside, if we keep him on pp1 but sheltered on 3rd pairing otherwise he can be quality player for us.

Yeah, he's been getting absurd sheltering lately, like 90%+ offensive zone starts. Scandella has been getting the opposite treatment during that time.

 

[joe galiba]

It's interesting that Armstrong specified the money aspect of Chief's quote. Marek did the same on his show where he covered it originally. Sounds like talking about how much the players make and all that is a pretty big hot button issue - like a third rail type thing.

Anyone else feel like Schenn is actively playing his way out of the Captaincy? He's been absolutely brutal since we moved ROR and Accari. Since then we've played 9 games and he's got 1G 1A (Both in the same game against San Jose) for 2 points while posting a -9. Plus he hasn't looked engaged at all most nights.

Strangely enough, the one guy who I think has stepped up his game is Krug. Parayko still shows his flashes, and I have no clue WTF Faulk is doing 1/2 the time (Talk about freelance) - Krug has actually been playing his tail off. You could tell that he was actively frustrated multiple times with Kyrou on the PP last night. Speaking of which, holy shit is Kyrou broken right now. Just like a puppy getting whipped. Hope he figures it out.

A couple of games ago Krug was diving trying to block a empty net goal

Schenn played his ass off last year while being physically broken, right now I kind of get it, he is playing like he doesn't want to get hurt and I do not really blame him

 

[Brockon]

That’s what I did last night. Watched the 2nd period to see Vrana a bit and then just couldn’t take it any longer after the horrendous 5 on 3 and watched a couple episodes of Letterkenny instead.

Yeah I started doing homework for my 200 classes after the score hit 4-2.

 

[Brian39]

This is true, but when the Blues were still not playoff contenders it was compelling to tune in when there were several young players breaking into the league. I don’t have the same sense now, although you could put Neighbors in that class. Perhaps it had to do with how Davidson marketed the rookies in the Oshie, Berglund, Perron, EJ era.

Those kids didn't arrive until 2007/08 and 2008/09 (where we made the playoffs). Oshie made his debut in his D+4 season, Barby was in his D+3 season and even EJ didn't join the team until his D+2 season. Perron made it right away, but he was a freak. Backes made the NHL about midway through his D+4 season, which was 2006/07. I don't think our prospect pool is ready to be the center of an NHL youth movement for 2023/24, so that's the year that I think the organization is worried about.

I look at this year like 2005/06 in terms of starting whatever "re" we are doing to the organization. And (barring a lottery pick) I look at 2024/25 like 2007/08 in terms of the start of the real youth movement. Snuggy, Bolduc, Dean, and whoever we pick in the top 10 should all have realistic chances of making the NHL roster for that season.

So how do you prevent fan engagement from looking like it did in 2006/07 while we wait for the kids? It's clear that Army's plan is to put a watchable product on the ice rather than tanking for a pick. I can't be mad at that, especially given how many assets he picked up this year. We have about the same draft capital as we did in 2006, but our prospect pool and young NHL talent is substantially better than what we had back then.

 

[Brian39]

It's interesting that Armstrong specified the money aspect of Chief's quote. Marek did the same on his show where he covered it originally. Sounds like talking about how much the players make and all that is a pretty big hot button issue - like a third rail type thing.

That part was what most rubbed me the wrong way.

I'm not at all a fan of a head coach making millions of dollars ripping players for making more millions of dollars. Berube's locked in about $20M from coaching the Blues. That's more than some of the guys he was criticizing and not too far off from some of the others. He shouldn't have to go out and answer questions about how he feels he is justifying that money this year and he shouldn't put his players in a position too either.

I can tell you that I'm showing zero loyalty to a boss who publicly rips my salary, especially when I feel that he isn't earning his. The instant that happens, our relationship is purely transactional which is about the worst thing you can tell your players in a locker room.

 

[Celtic Note]

this is i think ultimately largest part of why we picked up kap and vrana. DA knows it's unlikely they will become part of core, but need to be able to sell hope to fans now. hope to contend for playoffs next year. hope to at least be entertaining and not lose 5-1 every game. bc nobody wants to buy season tickets or luxury boxes to watch that. everyone knows we aren't gonna be contenders next couple years, but there needs to be something worth watching because once folks cancel those tix it's super hard to get them to come back. and i think that is far more important to franchise than whatever 2nd or 3rd we get at TDL for guys next year.

Are Vrana and Kap names to sell the fans on? As an avid fan, I personally feel like we are buying scratch offs. While there is some excitement you may win big, logic stems the excitement. Plus, does the average fan know who they are?

It's interesting that Armstrong specified the money aspect of Chief's quote. Marek did the same on his show where he covered it originally. Sounds like talking about how much the players make and all that is a pretty big hot button issue - like a third rail type thing.

Anyone else feel like Schenn is actively playing his way out of the Captaincy? He's been absolutely brutal since we moved ROR and Accari. Since then we've played 9 games and he's got 1G 1A (Both in the same game against San Jose) for 2 points while posting a -9. Plus he hasn't looked engaged at all most nights.

Strangely enough, the one guy who I think has stepped up his game is Krug. Parayko still shows his flashes, and I have no clue WTF Faulk is doing 1/2 the time (Talk about freelance) - Krug has actually been playing his tail off. You could tell that he was actively frustrated multiple times with Kyrou on the PP last night. Speaking of which, holy shit is Kyrou broken right now. Just like a puppy getting whipped. Hope he figures it out.

Schenn shouldn’t have been in consideration to begin with IMO. I know he was the default name, but that’s like saying Dallas Drake was a good choice when he was captain. Choosing from the least worse options isn’t something that excites.

 

[Celtic Note]

Those kids didn't arrive until 2007/08 and 2008/09 (where we made the playoffs). Oshie made his debut in his D+4 season, Barby was in his D+3 season and even EJ didn't join the team until his D+2 season. Perron made it right away, but he was a freak. Backes made the NHL about midway through his D+4 season, which was 2006/07. I don't think our prospect pool is ready to be the center of an NHL youth movement for 2023/24, so that's the year that I think the organization is worried about.

I look at this year like 2005/06 in terms of starting whatever "re" we are doing to the organization. And (barring a lottery pick) I look at 2024/25 like 2007/08 in terms of the start of the real youth movement. Snuggy, Bolduc, Dean, and whoever we pick in the top 10 should all have realistic chances of making the NHL roster for that season.

So how do you prevent fan engagement from looking like it did in 2006/07 while we wait for the kids? It's clear that Army's plan is to put a watchable product on the ice rather than tanking for a pick. I can't be mad at that, especially given how many assets he picked up this year. We have about the same draft capital as we did in 2006, but our prospect pool and young NHL talent is substantially better than what we had back then.

And the risk of trying to be decent next year is that we won’t be able to draft the talent we need to compete. So bleed a lot next year or consider bleeding slowly for a while. Bleeding heavy for one year seems a better option to me, but I am not feeling that financial burden.

 

[Xerloris]

That part was what most rubbed me the wrong way.

I'm not at all a fan of a head coach making millions of dollars ripping players for making more millions of dollars. Berube's locked in about $20M from coaching the Blues. That's more than some of the guys he was criticizing and not too far off from some of the others. He shouldn't have to go out and answer questions about how he feels he is justifying that money this year and he shouldn't put his players in a position too either.

I can tell you that I'm showing zero loyalty to a boss who publicly rips my salary, especially when I feel that he isn't earning his. The instant that happens, our relationship is purely transactional which is about the worst thing you can tell your players in a locker room.

Is Berube seriously making 4-5m/yr?

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Is Berube seriously making 4-5m/yr?

3.5 via capfriendly

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Are Vrana and Kap names to sell the fans on? As an avid fan, I personally feel like we are buying scratch offs. While there is some excitement you may win big, logic stems the excitement. Plus, does the average fan know who they are?


Schenn shouldn’t have been in consideration to begin with IMO. I know he was the default name, but that’s like saying Dallas Drake was a good choice when he was captain. Choosing from the least worse options isn’t something that excites.

It’s not that they are household names, but they are former 1st round picks. Vrana is a former 20 goal scorers. It’s part of the story we are selling I think.

 

[TruBlu]

The one good thing about this is ticket prices will come down and they'll probably bring back the 10 game pass. I don't think we'll be a bottom feeding team next year but we're definitely not going to be in the playoff hunt. At least we know there is a plan in place and that we have guys waiting in the AHL that will bring us back into contention. That's the difference between now and the mid 2000's.

 

[TK 421]

And the risk of trying to be decent next year is that we won’t be able to draft the talent we need to compete. So bleed a lot next year or consider bleeding slowly for a while. Bleeding heavy for one year seems a better option to me, but I am not feeling that financial burden.

There's a lot of unanswered questions yet but at this point we project to have another rough season ahead.

You can't subtract a guy like ROR (or have him and watch his play fall off) and not feel a big loss in results. Same with Tarasenko, hugely productive player over the years and not easy to replace. Adding Kapanen and Vrana doesn't immediately make us competitive next year on its own. We'd need a new defensive gameplan and a revamped coaching staff experiencing success for the type of turnaround you're describing. I understand the concern but odds are we aren't going to be much better next year if we even are better. I think being worse is actually more likely than being better even WITH a revamped coaching staff having some success establishing some structure. Our personnel going into next season so far look worse than what we started this year with. Obviously we have the draft and UFA still to go though so who knows what it looks like come training camp.

 

[BlueDream]

Are Vrana and Kap names to sell the fans on? As an avid fan, I personally feel like we are buying scratch offs. While there is some excitement you may win big, logic stems the excitement. Plus, does the average fan know who they are?


Schenn shouldn’t have been in consideration to begin with IMO. I know he was the default name, but that’s like saying Dallas Drake was a good choice when he was captain. Choosing from the least worse options isn’t something that excites.

Not a good comparison, as Schenn is a much better player than Drake ever was. He’s absolutely in the conversation, and should be.

 

[Celtic Note]

Not a good comparison, as Schenn is a much better player than Drake ever was. He’s absolutely in the conversation, and should be.

It’s a fair point that Schenn is a better player than Drake was at the time, but I would also be inclined to say Drake was the better lead by example player. He always seemed to put forth the effort and there was no question he was laying his body on the line. We cannot say the same for Schenn in terms of effort and while he puts his body on the line sometimes, Drake was well beyond in that regard.

But regardless, I don’t think much of Schenn as a leader as I have discussed elsewhere and I know there are others that disagree. But, his play this season reinforces how I feel about his leadership capabilities. Besides his inconsistent effort, his defensive play has been blah and this year it’s Kyrou level garbage. On a team that needs to show its young players how to play, I don’t see Schenn as a shining example.

Since we are moving on to a new core, I would be looking in a future direction. Schenn would be a bandaid like Drake IMO, but unlike Drake, Schenn has term. I am not a big fan of yanking captaincy from players who are slated to remain on the team and I would assume Schenn qualifies given that contract.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Those kids didn't arrive until 2007/08 and 2008/09 (where we made the playoffs). Oshie made his debut in his D+4 season, Barby was in his D+3 season and even EJ didn't join the team until his D+2 season. Perron made it right away, but he was a freak. Backes made the NHL about midway through his D+4 season, which was 2006/07. I don't think our prospect pool is ready to be the center of an NHL youth movement for 2023/24, so that's the year that I think the organization is worried about.

I look at this year like 2005/06 in terms of starting whatever "re" we are doing to the organization. And (barring a lottery pick) I look at 2024/25 like 2007/08 in terms of the start of the real youth movement. Snuggy, Bolduc, Dean, and whoever we pick in the top 10 should all have realistic chances of making the NHL roster for that season.

So how do you prevent fan engagement from looking like it did in 2006/07 while we wait for the kids? It's clear that Army's plan is to put a watchable product on the ice rather than tanking for a pick. I can't be mad at that, especially given how many assets he picked up this year. We have about the same draft capital as we did in 2006, but our prospect pool and young NHL talent is substantially better than what we had back then.

I moved to St Louis and became a fan the year they finished last. In fact Kitchen was fired the day after the first game I attended (which the Blues won!). I had no idea how bad they were or that I wasn’t supposed to enjoy it. I didn’t pay attention to the draft or prospects initially, but I remember seeing clips of EJ in his D+1 season. Looking back, it’s hard to believe that was the outcome of the Blues’ one and only 1st overall pick.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Should we have a playoff draft when the Blues are officially eliminated from postseason contention?

This should probably be its own thread if so. I’m open to cheering for any team that drafts me. I’m strangely excited and interested in the postseason this year. There are a lot of good teams and someone who hasn’t won lately stands a good chance of making the SCF.

 

[HighNote]

I think there's a solid chance all of PHI, VAN, and MTL pass us.

I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona passed us either. They have twelve home games left out of their 18 remaining games. At home, they have a points % of .569 which is way above their overall P% of .422. They've been absolute garbage on the road, going 7-21-7 (.300 P%).

If I've done my math correctly, and if they maintain their current pace, they should end up around 71-72 points. At our current pace (going off of our last 10 games) we should end up around 70 points.

Losing in regulation to them the other night makes this all possible. That was a huge loss (or win) for us. I think 5th worst is our floor now for how far down we can drop. That would mean about a 1 in 12 chance of landing Bedard, and about a 1 in 6 of getting 1st or 2nd overall. It would guarantee a top 7 pick with our most likely pick being 5th or 6th.

PHI, VAN, MTL, and ARI are the teams to watch from here on out.

Looking at the remaining games, these are the 5 biggest ones to watch:

Games we're hoping go to overtime:
3/16 - VAN @ ARI
3/28 - MTL @ PHI
4/13 - VAN @ ARI

Games we definitely hope to lose in regulation:
3/28 - VAN @ STL
4/4 - PHI @ STL

 

[Reality Czech]

Are Vrana and Kap names to sell the fans on? As an avid fan, I personally feel like we are buying scratch offs. While there is some excitement you may win big, logic stems the excitement. Plus, does the average fan know who they are?


Schenn shouldn’t have been in consideration to begin with IMO. I know he was the default name, but that’s like saying Dallas Drake was a good choice when he was captain. Choosing from the least worse options isn’t something that excites.

What options are better than Schenn? I'd say you could only make an argument for 1-2 other guys, but he's the most obvious choice. Also, you have no idea what kind of a captain Dallas Drake was. I'm willing to bet his coaches and teammates had a much better, and more accurate, assessment of his leadership qualities than you do. To be honest, fans probably shouldn't be making assumptions about what kind of a leader these guys are behind the scenes because we have no idea what goes on in the room.

 

[Celtic Note]

What options are better than Schenn? I'd say you could only make an argument for 1-2 other guys, but he's the most obvious choice. Also, you have no idea what kind of a captain Dallas Drake was. I'm willing to bet his coaches and teammates had a much better, and more accurate, assessment of his leadership qualities than you do. To be honest, fans probably shouldn't be making assumptions about what kind of a leader these guys are behind the scenes because we have no idea what goes on in the room.

Let’s put it this way, if Schenn is the best of the group then we should just wait till a true captain emerges. Army basically said something similar on his latest interview. We have time for a leadership group to step forward and it could take 12-24 months. He doesn’t sound like he is seeing the leadership he needs to see. Nor do I (obviously you don’t seem to think much of my opinion, but maybe you care about Army’s). He called out Schenn and the top 4D as guys who could do it but haven’t and he called out the young guys as needing to do the same. That’s in line with what I think should happen. Wait for someone to step up. I haven’t seen it. Army hasn’t seen it.

Also, this is a forum for us to discuss all things hockey. If we cannot discuss things like leadership, then why show up here?

 

[Mike Liut]

There are no captains on this team. Several alternative types, just no captain material.

 

[LogosBlue]

Let’s put it this way, if Schenn is the best of the group then we should just wait till a true captain emerges. Army basically said something similar on his latest interview. We have time for a leadership group to step forward and it could take 12-24 months. He doesn’t sound like he is seeing the leadership he needs to see. Nor do I (obviously you don’t seem to think much of my opinion, but maybe you care about Army’s). He called out Schenn and the top 4D as guys who could do it but haven’t and he called out the going guys as needing to do the same. That’s in line with what I think should happen. Wait for someone to step up. I haven’t seen it. Army hasn’t seen it.

Also, this is a forum for us to discuss all things hockey. If we cannot discuss things like leadership, then why show up here?

Schenn is definitely not the guy to take the C. Off Season pick up aside, I don't see anyone on this roster grabbing the C. I say they go all A's next year until a true C emerges.