2022-2023 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

[Frenzy31]

We've lost our ability (willingness?) to forecheck. You can see it at ES, and you can see it even when we have an EN. That's my observation, anyway. Without a strong forecheck we make zone exits far too easy for our opponents.

We need more players who are quicker and more willing to get dirty in the O-zone.

Loss of physicality since we won the cup. Everyone would finish checks, now we pull out and turn away.

 

[Snubbed4Vezina]

Loss of physicality since we won the cup. Everyone would finish checks, now we pull out and turn away.

I watched some video of the Cup winning team recently. The team is a shell of it's former self when it comes to tenacity and physicality.

 

[Brian39]

I'm not reading too much into Berube's comments about trying Buch at center. When I read those comments, I interpret Berube's subtext as "we only have two guys who can remotely be considered top 9 NHL centers and I still have to put together a 3rd line for 20 more games" rather than "I'm looking for a long-term organizational solution to our middle 6 center hole."

This was a conversation about new line combos in the wake of the team moving out 4 forwards and bringing in 3 forwards in the span of 3 weeks. We moved 2 full time centers and the winger who was consistently our 'plays center in a pinch' guy. We replaced them with pure wingers and two internal guys who (as of a month ago) couldn't crack the healthy lineup of a bottom 10 NHL team.

I feel pretty comfortable that Berube is talking about committing to trying Buch at center in an upcoming game to address the very immediate lack of a playable 3C rather than committing to a long-term plan to move him to center full time.

If Buch excels at center and can effectively drive a top 6 line from that position? Awesome. One of our 3 best forwards just got even better and we can approach the summer with way less urgency to target short term center fixes.

If he doesn't, then maybe we lose a few extra games down the stretch. Oh no. We're back to the same position we are currently in long term while helping our draft status. This is what a tank looks like. The coach isn't going to stop trying to win games, but the GM gives him few/poor tools to work with at critical positions.

I see no downside here.

 

[Brian39]

In my very quick keyword search of the CBA, I can't find anything about post-trade deadline eligibility to play in NHL games. Which makes some sense. The CBA is about compensation and contract rights/obligations. The cap, waivers, loans, IR, etc are all things that impact money whereas lineup eligibility is more of a 'game rules' topic. I wouldn't have been surprised to find out that post-deadline playing eligibility had come up in collective bargaining, but I'm also not surprised to discover that it hasn't.

I did find language addressing it from a (very) old version of the NHL bylaws. Article 12.4 of these bylaws indicated that any player transferred from the reserve list of one team to another (which is legalese for a trade) after the deadline was ineligible to play for the new NHL team for the remainder of the season.

NHL bylaws aren't published publicly and they are not subject to collective bargaining. It is possible that this rule was changed (and then changed back) between the version I have (which was filed as an exhibit in litigation in 2009) and today. However, I think it is unlikely. I think it is more likely that Burke was simply mistaken on a topic that was always hypothetical in nature.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I also hate the defense that guys like JR, Korac, Strickland, and other media types provide for Kyrou, Schenn, Kyrou for their abysmal +/-. I agree, the empty net goals are an issue for why it's looks as bad as it does, but Thomas and Buchnevich are also out there for those situations, Thomas is just a -7 and Buchnevich is a +8.

I don't know if there is a stat that better sums up how good Buchnevich is, +8 on this team...

 

[bleedblue1223]

And even Leddy at just a -3 is damn good for the minutes he plays. He doesn't get enough credit for being as solid as he is. He's not perfect, but he's pretty plug and play.

 

[Mike Liut]

And even Leddy at just a -3 is damn good for the minutes he plays. He doesn't get enough credit for being as solid as he is. He's not perfect, but he's pretty plug and play.

Leddy, Parayko, Krug and Faulk are much better than people give credit for. I think a lot of their problems are who they are paired with. Pairings don’t always work well together.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Leddy, Parayko, Krug and Faulk are much better than people give credit for. I think a lot of their problems are who they are paired with. Pairings don’t always work well together.

agreed. issues seem like fit and coaching/scheme. contracts aside, pretty much any team would want parayko or faulk in their top 4 and many would want leddy there as well.

 

[Xerloris]

Loss of physicality since we won the cup. Everyone would finish checks, now we pull out and turn away.

I watched some video of the Cup winning team recently. The team is a shell of it's former self when it comes to tenacity and physicality.

We also don't coach that type of hockey anymore. Berube coaches a run n gun style now that he thinks we're super talented because of Thomas and Kyrou. I'm telling you, it's the coaching. Berube is gonna get shit canned next season.

 

[Snubbed4Vezina]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm skeptical Berube doesn't support a more physical style of play.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Berube changed when the personnel changed, that's what coaches do. The run n gun style was very successful last season, and push Colorado pretty hard in the playoffs. Tarasenko this season was nothing like last season, the ROR line went from a line of top 6 production, to terrible or 3rd line production. The Krug/Faulk pair went from over-performing to just pathetic. If Berube coached like we were the 2019, it would've been an even bigger disaster of a season.

 

[Majorityof1]

Anyone know of a site that provides +/- for individual players that doesn't include empty net situations?

Natural stat trick has "with empty net" and "against empty net" for situation where you'd but Even strength, 5v5, PP etc. Its a little work, but you could look at the GF, GA and extrapolate. Its not perfect because that doesn't account for SH/PP with an empty net. But it can give you a rough estimate.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Natural stat trick has "with empty net" and "against empty net" for situation where you'd but Even strength, 5v5, PP etc. Its a little work, but you could look at the GF, GA and extrapolate. Its not perfect because that doesn't account for SH/PP with an empty net. But it can give you a rough estimate.

Holy hell. We've only scored 2 goalies with the net empty this year?

 

[LGB]

Anyone know of a site that provides +/- for individual players that doesn't include empty net situations?

Evolving Hockey has 5v5 +/-

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Berube changed when the personnel changed, that's what coaches do. The run n gun style was very successful last season, and push Colorado pretty hard in the playoffs. Tarasenko this season was nothing like last season, the ROR line went from a line of top 6 production, to terrible or 3rd line production. The Krug/Faulk pair went from over-performing to just pathetic. If Berube coached like we were the 2019, it would've been an even bigger disaster of a season.

Chief showed tremendous versatility in his ability to adjust. The problem was that we didn't have enough horses to run.

I love the Machiavelli in Coach Berube, in that he always has a contingency, but he needs to continue to tweak his approach.

 

[542365]

+\- has always been an entirely meaningless stat. Our objectively best defensive player, former Selke winner was a huge minus player this year due mostly to factors completely outside his control(qualify of competition, goaltender performance at both ends, his line mates’ shooting percentage, empty net goals etc. etc.) There is so much noise that is not accounted for that it renders it completely useless as a means for evaluating a player.

 

[STL fan in MN]

Wasn’t sure where to put this video of Army as it touches on topics of a few different threads. So “multi-purpose” it is!


Not sure who these 2 guys are but Army reveals some of his thinking on a number of topics.

Trade deadline - it was (unfortunately) an easy decision to sell.

Rebuild/retool - he reiterated he wants it to be a quicker turn around like LA, not the decade long rebuilds like BUF, OTT etc.

Free agency - there’s not a lot he sees being available this summer and doesn’t see the Blues as a team that would be going after a big free agent as they aren’t 1 big time player away from being in Cup contention

Berube’s comments about the players not caring - Army was disappointed. “It wasn’t a great day for our franchise.” Says the air has been cleared.

Leadership - they’re looking towards veterans like Schenn and the top 4 D to lead but also want to see if guys line Thomas, Kyrou, Buchnevich will step up to lead. “Could be 12-24 months before someone really grabs that (leadership)”.

Draft - the Blues scouts are telling him there’s a big 4 at the top, but the Russian (Michkov) is a big wildcard. After that, the draft is deeper than normal. The next grouping that is typically 4-7 is more like 4-12/13 this year. And then the rest of the first round and into the 2nd is also deeper than a typical draft.

—————————————————-
My takeaways is that Army was really not pleased with Berube’s comments. Specifically said you absolutely shouldn’t bring up money or question a player’s character. Hopefully the air truly is cleared and Berube didn’t drive a wedge between himself and the players that can’t be mended. Could be the beginning of Army considering Berube isn’t the right fit long-term IMO.

Regarding his comments on it may take 12-24 months before someone really grabs a leadership role, I’ll double down on my thoughts that they’re unlikely to name a C until the choice becomes obvious. Currently, it’s not.

The rest was basically regurgitation of what he’s said before.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I think we make a bit more out of the rebuild/retool than anything else. Instead of trying to copy what LA did, I think it's just lowkey saying that Army believes we have a good management group, we know what we are doing, and we aren't going to make dumb decisions like those long-term rebuilds, and our ownership will empower us to make moves when necessary. Long rebuilds are almost always the result of mistakes, bad drafting, making moves for the wrong players, or not making moves when you should.

If our scouts believe there are ultimately 12-13 players that we'd have essentially top 5-10 grades on from a normal draft, that's very good news, basically guarantees someone that we really likely, even if we start going on a run. And then factor in teams making off the board moves, we should get someone we really like, and might be able to trade up for another.

 

[bleedblue1223]

+\- has always been an entirely meaningless stat. Our objectively best defensive player, former Selke winner was a huge minus player this year due mostly to factors completely outside his control(qualify of competition, goaltender performance at both ends, his line mates’ shooting percentage, empty net goals etc. etc.) There is so much noise that is not accounted for that it renders it completely useless as a means for evaluating a player.

I don't think it's completely meaningless, but it is something that needs a ton of context. Just like possession stats, you need to compare players that have similar deployment. Saying Rosen is our top +/- with +14, and that means he's our best defender is a pretty dumb statement, but highlighting how Buchnevich is +10 and comparing that to other forwards that play in similar situations is pretty significant. Or same with Leddy at just -4 compared to other defensemen that get easier deployments.

And it's completely useless when comparing players on different teams.

 

[BrokenFace]

I don't think it's completely meaningless, but it is something that needs a ton of context. Just like possession stats, you need to compare players that have similar deployment. Saying Rosen is our top +/- with +14, and that means he's our best defender is a pretty dumb statement, but highlighting how Buchnevich is +10 and comparing that to other forwards that play in similar situations is pretty significant. Or same with Leddy at just -4 compared to other defensemen that get easier deployments.

And it's completely useless when comparing players on different teams.

+/-, to me, is a dumb combination of 2 stats that can be useful on their own. Given the context of zone starts, quality of competition, and ice time, I think it is valuable to know how often a player is on the ice for a goal against or a goal for. But it dillutes the value too much to combine goals for and goals against into a single +/- stat. It's like creating a new stat that is a combination of a player's faceoffs won and penalties taken. Two stats that have value on their own but much less value when combined.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

A Blues fan on Twitter says it best in one Tweet.

 

[STL fan in MN]

A Blues fan on Twitter says it best in one Tweet.

That’s what I did last night. Watched the 2nd period to see Vrana a bit and then just couldn’t take it any longer after the horrendous 5 on 3 and watched a couple episodes of Letterkenny instead.

 

[Brian39]

I also only half watched about half of this one. I spent more time watching other games than our game.

And this is why multi-year tank/rebuilds are so damn hard to sell to an ownership group. Even the people who care most about the team and support the process/goals of a rebuild are going to spend less time/money on your product the longer your product is terrible. There was tangible excitement and optimism around this team less than 4 months ago. This team had as many wins as it did total losses less than 2 months ago (23-20-3 on 1/19/23). We've really just started being truly awful and you've already got people tuning out.

I don't blame anyone. I'm included in the group. I'm about 90% I'm not renewing my season tickets next year. This post isn't meant to insult anyone's fandom or commitment. Watching a crappy product sucks and you shouldn't use your entertainment time/dollars on something that you know is going to put you in a worse mood.

But it is a very real consideration for teams.

 

[STL fan in MN]

I also only half watched about half of this one. I spent more time watching other games than our game.

And this is why multi-year tank/rebuilds are so damn hard to sell to an ownership group. Even the people who care most about the team and support the process/goals of a rebuild are going to spend less time/money on your product the longer your product is terrible. There was tangible excitement and optimism around this team less than 4 months ago. This team had as many wins as it did total losses less than 2 months ago (23-20-3 on 1/19/23). We've really just started being truly awful and you've already got people tuning out.

I don't blame anyone. I'm included in the group. I'm about 90% I'm not renewing my season tickets next year. This post isn't meant to insult anyone's fandom or commitment. Watching a crappy product sucks and you shouldn't use your entertainment time/dollars on something that you know is going to put you in a worse mood.

But it is a very real consideration for teams.

Yes, it is. Army specifically mentioned in his interview I posted above that he doesn’t think the STL market can handle a long rebuild.

That tells me he and Stillman/the rest of the ownership group have talked and he’s got his marching orders to try to turn it around rather quickly. Stillman and the others are some very well off dudes but they’re not Terry Pegula throw away millions and not care level of wealthy.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I also only half watched about half of this one. I spent more time watching other games than our game.

And this is why multi-year tank/rebuilds are so damn hard to sell to an ownership group. Even the people who care most about the team and support the process/goals of a rebuild are going to spend less time/money on your product the longer your product is terrible. There was tangible excitement and optimism around this team less than 4 months ago. This team had as many wins as it did total losses less than 2 months ago (23-20-3 on 1/19/23). We've really just started being truly awful and you've already got people tuning out.

I don't blame anyone. I'm included in the group. I'm about 90% I'm not renewing my season tickets next year. This post isn't meant to insult anyone's fandom or commitment. Watching a crappy product sucks and you shouldn't use your entertainment time/dollars on something that you know is going to put you in a worse mood.

But it is a very real consideration for teams.

This is true, but when the Blues were still not playoff contenders it was compelling to tune in when there were several young players breaking into the league. I don’t have the same sense now, although you could put Neighbors in that class. Perhaps it had to do with how Davidson marketed the rookies in the Oshie, Berglund, Perron, EJ era.