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2022-2023 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

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Things only really get interesting when your predictive statistical measures are telling you something that doesn’t match your eye test. It does make the club’s professional scouting moves really interesting to follow. I truly believe some front offices historically have flown by the seat of their pants, sometimes successfully. It would be entertaining to know what the real discussions are with moves such as acquiring Leddy, and what models are used.
 
The other day, Doug Armstrong said the big contracts he gave out this summer were good deals for the Blues because even if Thomas and Kyrou don't improve then the amounts will be fair.

The Jordan Kyrou we have seen to start the season is not worth 8M, or even close.
 
PocketNines said:
The other day, Doug Armstrong said the big contracts he gave out this summer were good deals for the Blues because even if Thomas and Kyrou don't improve then the amounts will be fair.

The Jordan Kyrou we have seen to start the season is not worth 8M, or even close.
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Couldn't possibly have anything to do with being anchored to ROR and Saad. Nope. No way.
 
PocketNines said:
The other day, Doug Armstrong said the big contracts he gave out this summer were good deals for the Blues because even if Thomas and Kyrou don't improve then the amounts will be fair.

The Jordan Kyrou we have seen to start the season is not worth 8M, or even close.
Click to expand...
Right, because 2 bad games trumps what guy has shown over previous 100. Seriously..
 
PocketNines said:
The other day, Doug Armstrong said the big contracts he gave out this summer were good deals for the Blues because even if Thomas and Kyrou don't improve then the amounts will be fair.

The Jordan Kyrou we have seen to start the season is not worth 8M, or even close.
Click to expand...
He's been put on a defensive orientated line, with defensive orientated forwards, playing in mostly defensive situations, and being double shifted in the majority of games.

It's been four games out of a 82 game season playing with completely different styles of players from last year and completely different usage from last year.

We want him to get better defensively so we put him in defensive situations with defensive players. Thats going to make him look awkward until he can get comfortable with the new responsibilities he's been given.
 
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PocketNines said:
The other day, Doug Armstrong said the big contracts he gave out this summer were good deals for the Blues because even if Thomas and Kyrou don't improve then the amounts will be fair.

The Jordan Kyrou we have seen to start the season is not worth 8M, or even close.
Click to expand...
That's okay. Based on the same sample size, Justin Faulk is a top 15 D man in the league and we have a top 5 goaltending tandem in the NHL anchored by a Cup-winning starter looking like a Vezina candidate. That .940 goalie and #1 D man are both locked in for 5 more years at just $12.5M. That value on those contracts more than makes up for the lost value on Kyrou's extension.
 
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Brian39 said:
That's okay. Based on the same sample size, Justin Faulk is a top 15 D man and we have a top 5 goaltending tandem in the NHL anchored by a Cup-winning starter looking like a Vezina candidate. That .940 goalie and #1 D man are both locked in for 5 more years at just $12.5M. That value on those contracts more than makes up for the lost value on Kyrou's extension.
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Bristling sensitivity for an observation that Kyrou has started the season poorly.

ValHaller said:
They are certainly anchoring Kyrou's main positive trait, which is his speed, and that's hardly debatable. But you can stick your head in the sand all you want.
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So Kyrou is a complementary player who needs help, and only people with their heads in the sand don't get that. LOL
 
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Linkens Mastery said:
He's been put on a defensive orientated line, with defensive orientated forwards, playing in mostly defensive situations, and being double shifted in the majority of games.

It's been four games out of a 82 game season playing with completely different styles of players from last year and completely different usage from last year.

We want him to get better defensively so we put him in defensive situations with defensive players. Thats going to make him look awkward until he can get comfortable with the new responsibilities he's been given.
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I hope this is the case. I want it to happen. I am suspicious.
 
PocketNines said:
So Kyrou is a complementary player who needs help, and only people with their heads in the sand don't get that. LOL
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Look man, I'm sorry to say something negative about your favorite players, but there's a lot more to hockey line chemistry than you're implying here and to pretend there isn't is, frankly, beneath you. You wouldn't be saying the same thing if another young, fast player were given defensive minutes with slow linemates. What we're witnessing is the confluence of your boner for ROR and Saad and your dislike of Kyrou.
 
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ValHaller said:
Look man, I'm sorry to say something negative about your favorite players, but there's a lot more to hockey line chemistry than you're implying here and to pretend there isn't is, frankly, beneath you. You wouldn't be saying the same thing if another young, fast player were given defensive minutes with slow linemates. What we're witnessing is the confluence of your boner for ROR and Saad and your dislike of Kyrou.
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LOL now I have to be a ROR/Saad fanboy because that's the only thing you can come up with and you are going to make it sexual. I really made you feel bad dismissing you. Sorry.
 
ValHaller said:
Couldn't possibly have anything to do with being anchored to ROR and Saad. Nope. No way.
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At the risk of jumping into a thread that’s gone off the rails a bit, I will say any players not meshing with each other is a two-way street. Kyrou isn’t meshing with ROR and Saad as much as ROR and Saad aren’t meshing with Kyrou. So I don’t necessarily see it as those 2 holding back Kyrou or anchoring him.

That said, it’s an odd pairing that I question if it’ll work long-term. But I’d also like to see the experiment be given more time to see if they can develop chemistry and better utilize their strengths. They looked good together against Edmonton. They looked bad against Winnipeg but the entire team looked like garbage in that game so I’d tend to just toss that one out the window.

Saad is out for who knows how long now but I’d like to keep ROR and Kyrou together for now to see if they can gel.

But if it doesn’t work, my first attempt would be to switch Kyrou and Tarasenko.
 
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STL fan in IA said:
At the risk of jumping into a thread that’s gone off the rails a bit, I will say any players not meshing with each other is a two-way street. Kyrou isn’t meshing with ROR and Saad as much as ROR and Saad aren’t meshing with Kyrou. So I don’t necessarily see it as those 2 holding back Kyrou or anchoring him.

That said, it’s an odd pairing that I question if it’ll work long-term. But I’d also like to see the experiment be given more time to see if they can develop chemistry and better utilize their strengths. They looked good together against Edmonton. They looked bad against Winnipeg but the entire team looked like garbage in that game so I’d tend to just toss that one out the window.

Saad is out for who knows how long now but I’d like to keep ROR and Kyrou together for now to see if they can gel.

But if it doesn’t work, my first attempt would be to switch Kyrou and Tarasenko.
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Good points. I think everyone knew that ROR and Kyrou isn't an ideal pairing in theory, but if some of ROR's two-way game and hockey sense can rub off onto Kyrou there still might be a benefit keeping them together in the short term. Despite not putting up points, Kyrou leads the team in SOG and he has had some chances. Saad has been pretty invisible and ROR is a notorious slow starter. It's not panic time just yet.

I said before the season that it would make sense to me to switch Kyrou and Buchy if we need to make a change. One of them (presumably Kyrou) would have to play his off side, but I'm pretty sure the three of them played together at times last year. Buch seems like he would gel with ROR better than Vladi and I don't wanna break up 91 and 18 right now.
 
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Reality Czech said:
Good points. I think everyone knew that ROR and Kyrou isn't an ideal pairing in theory, but if some of ROR's two-way game and hockey sense can rub off onto Kyrou there still might be a benefit keeping them together in the short term. Despite not putting up points, Kyrou leads the team in SOG and he has had some chances. Saad has been pretty invisible and ROR is a notorious slow starter. It's not panic time just yet.

I said before the season that it would make sense to me to switch Kyrou and Buchy if we need to make a change. One of them (presumably Kyrou) would have to play his off side, but I'm pretty sure the three of them played together at times last year. Buch seems like he would gel with ROR better than Vladi and I don't wanna break up 91 and 18 right now.
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I actually think Vlad would do well with ROR, he can speed up or slow down his play and still be effective offensively and both are very good in close with the puck
 
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joe galiba said:
I actually think Vlad would do well with ROR, he can speed up or slow down his play and still be effective offensively and both are very good in close with the puck
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I’ve had the same thought there as well about Vladdy with O’ry. I definitely would like to see Kyrou on a line with Thomas at some point but i get not wanting to break up Thomer and Vlad right now.
 
Going into this season, I felt like the biggest question surrounding this team was how well Binnington would play after shining in the playoffs. My second biggest concern was how well Kyrou was going to develop as a hockey player. We know he can score and do so in highlight reel fashion, but we need to know if he can contribute more on the PP, with Perron gone, and improve defensively.

Thus far I've been pretty disappointed. Defensively he's been a liability and I think he's looked pretty awful on the PP as well. I think it's completely fair to have concerns about his performance thus far, because if he's going to remain a one-dimensional player, he's going to have to score at levels he did last season to justify that contract and I don't think that's guaranteed.

But, it's only been 4 games. He hasn't looked good with O'Reilly and Saad but I agree with whoever said it makes sense to pair him with two of our best two-way forwards to see if he can improve there. I voiced my displeasure in the Jets game thread but I'll admit, that was fueled heavily by the immaturity he showed during that game, more than anything else.

Unlike with Thomas, I felt uneasy about signing Kyrou to that extension but I understood it. I don't think it would be a surprise for anybody if he was simply feeling the pressure of the new deal which brings higher expectations. I hope he gets going soon, especially with our forward group thinning out so quickly.
 
ValHaller said:
Why are we talking about 91 with 90 like it's a novel concept? It's been proven to work well in the past.
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Has it worked well? I feel like they never really clicked that much at even strength, although Tarasenko is a more well-rounded player than he was a couple years ago. Of course Perron was glued to ROR's right wing most of the time, so that's the main reason thay haven't seen significant time together. I'm sure it would work well enough, but it wouldn't be my first choice.
 
bleedblue1223 said:
Everytime I remember O'Reilly and Tarasenko playing together, I remember them being a pretty terrible fit.
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The advanced stats don't necessarily bear that out. Looking at their Wowy from when RoR joined the Blue to now, they both have higher advanced stats together than separate. They have actually played together at about half of Tarasenko's 5v5 TOI over this period.

TOI With : 779
TOI Without: 731

CF% With: 52,96
Tarasenko w/o-49.93
ROR w/o - 51.55


GF% With: 60.87
Tarasenko w/o-39.98
ROR w/o - 62.5

xGF% With: 54.18
Tarasenko w/o-51.5
ROR w/o - 49.56
*Credit to natural stat trick for all stats

Now this isn't a perfect analysis. Its possible they played less time together when Tarasenko was playing injured and not as well. Also ROR definitely gets more Dzone without Tarasenko than Tarasenko gets without ROR. But overall, they mostly have a positive impact on each other's advanced stats, with O'Reilly fairing much closer when alone to how they are together. In fact, O'Reailly has a slightly better GF% w/o Tarasenko.

None of this is to say they should or shouldn't be played together. Given how equally well ROR does w/o Vladdy, it makes sense to use Vladdy to bolster another line. But they aren't a terrible together, at least from an advanced stats viewpoint. If that makes sense to make the other lines work, we shouldn't be precluded from trying it based on past performance.
 
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Majorityof1 said:
The advanced stats don't necessarily bear that out. Looking at their Wowy from when RoR joined the Blue to now, they both have higher advanced stats together than separate. They have actually played together at about half of Tarasenko's 5v5 TOI over this period.

TOI With : 779
TOI Without: 731

CF% With: 52,96
Tarasenko w/o-49.93
ROR w/o - 51.55


GF% With: 60.87
Tarasenko w/o-39.98
ROR w/o - 62.5

xGF% With: 54.18
Tarasenko w/o-51.5
ROR w/o - 49.56
*Credit to natural stat trick for all stats

Now this isn't a perfect analysis as its possible they played less time together when Tarasenko was playing injured and not as well, which would skew the results. But overall, they mostly have a positive impact on each other's advanced stats, with O'Reilly fairing much closer when alone to how they are together. In fact, O'Reailly has a slightly better GF% w/o Tarasenko.

None of this is to say they should or shouldn't be played together. Given how equally well ROR does w/o Vladdy, it makes sense to use Vladdy to bolster another line. But they aren't a terrible together, at least from an advanced stats viewpoint. If that makes sense to make the other lines work, we shouldn't be precluded from trying it based on past performance.
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The problem is just similar to Kyrou. Advanced stat wise, everyone does pretty good with ROR, even despite the defensive usage of that line. If we use the same types of stats this season comparing lines, the ROR/Saad/Kyrou line was excelling. The problem comes down to offensive production.

And sure, Tarasenko wasn't the healthy scoring Tarasenko that he is currently, but this Tarasenko is also benefitting from the offensive deployment with a center like Thomas. Ultimately, this is a season of transition for Tarasenko and Kyrou, as I expect Kyrou to slot in with Thomas for the long-term once Tarasenko leaves, but for the time being, keep Tarasenko with Thomas, and see if Kyrou can work with O'Reilly.
 
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Linkens Mastery said:
He's been put on a defensive orientated line, with defensive orientated forwards, playing in mostly defensive situations, and being double shifted in the majority of games.

It's been four games out of a 82 game season playing with completely different styles of players from last year and completely different usage from last year.

We want him to get better defensively so we put him in defensive situations with defensive players. Thats going to make him look awkward until he can get comfortable with the new responsibilities he's been given.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this. Chicago usually didn't play Toews and Kane together on the same line for this reason. They paired Toews-Hossa together often with Saad.
 
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