2022-2023 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

[PocketNines]

I can't think of any strategic advantage in Tarasenko's camp not making it very public that he wants to stay if that is in fact his desire. That would be the absolute, no doubt best way to apply pressure to Army in contract negotiations. Doing it fresh off the fanbase's anger about letting Perron walk would have been the optimal time to maximize the impact/pressure. If he wants to stay here, negotiating the extension on the heels of his team-leading 82 points in 75 games would be ideal. Army doesn't like negotiations in the media, but a well-timed 'I love it here and want to spend my entire career here' would be a pretty damn hard thing for the Blues to get angry about.

If he wanted to extend here, making that very clear to the fanbase is absolutely his best piece of leverage in negotiations. Playing up the narrative that the love/support he received from the fans changed his mind about wanting to leave puts 100% of the pressure on Army.

His agent badly misread the situation last summer, but I have a hard time believing that he would just sit on his hands and remain quiet if Tarasenko has changed his mind and now wants to stay.

Do you think it's a situation where Armstrong requires public pressure? If he's not open to public pressure on Perron then I'm uncertain public unhappiness with losing 57 has softened him up any. I do understand what you are getting at, just uncertain it will have an impact on Armstrong.

If Tarasenko privately communicates that he's open to an extension offer, then Armstrong knows if the deal doesn't get done Blues fans are going to find out not very long from now that Tarasenko told Armstrong he was willing to say and Armstrong was the one who walked away.

I do share bleedblue's read on the situation with Tarasenko's annoyance about the public talking about it so I doubt public pressure is his preferred style. He likes the focus to be on what's happening in games on the ice, winning and losing.

 

[Reality Czech]

I’m fine with a 4-5 yr deal. He’s still a beast. I just hope they cut his minutes down by about 4-5 per game.

From the Blues perspective that would be ideal, it just depends on what ROR's priorities are. He showed earlier in his career that he doesn't give discounts, but it's a totally different situation.

The more I think about it, I can certainly see the Blues moving on from ROR unless he takes a team-friendly deal. Of course we all love ROR but the Blues have shown that they make calculated business decisions regardless of who the player is. ROR is already pretty much the 2C behind Thomas, so how much are the Blues willing to spend on a guy who isn't going to be a 1C going forward? I have no idea what to expect at this point.

 

[PocketNines]

I’m fine with a 4-5 yr deal. He’s still a beast. I just hope they cut his minutes down by about 4-5 per game.

Patrice Bergeron seems to be pretty effective still. Similar players. Why is Bergeron, who's six years older, still going strong at 18:30 a game at age 37 but ROR has to be taken down to 14-15 minutes?

 

[Mike Liut]

Patrice Bergeron seems to be pretty effective still. Similar players. Why is Bergeron, who's six years older, still going strong at 18:30 a game at age 37 but ROR has to be taken down to 14-15 minutes?

I’m thinking like 18 min per game instead of 22

 

[PocketNines]

I’m thinking like 18 min per game instead of 22

He was the top forward in minutes last year at just over 19, and he has averaged more in the past.

At 18 minutes a year he would have been third among last year's group of forwards behind Thomas (18:46) and Buchnevich (18:18). Just some data points to inform the discussion.

 

[Mike Liut]

He was the top forward in minutes last year at just over 19, and he has averaged more in the past.

At 18 minutes a year he would have been third among last year's group of forwards behind Thomas (18:46) and Buchnevich (18:18). Just some data points to inform the discussion.

My bad. I thought I read he averaged 22 min per game last year.

 

[finnishflash13]

Do you think it's a situation where Armstrong requires public pressure? If he's not open to public pressure on Perron then I'm uncertain public unhappiness with losing 57 has softened him up any. I do understand what you are getting at, just uncertain it will have an impact on Armstrong.

If Tarasenko privately communicates that he's open to an extension offer, then Armstrong knows if the deal doesn't get done Blues fans are going to find out not very long from now that Tarasenko told Armstrong he was willing to say and Armstrong was the one who walked away.

I do share bleedblue's read on the situation with Tarasenko's annoyance about the public talking about it so I doubt public pressure is his preferred style. He likes the focus to be on what's happening in games on the ice, winning and losing.

in a somewhat similar vein, i thought that an extension for either O'Reilly or Tarasenko, whoever it ends up being, might make the sense after the season only so there isn't a chance of hard feelings during the season that one was chosen over the other. considering that's already kinda happened with ROR getting the C over Tarasenko.

 

[PocketNines]

in a somewhat similar vein, i thought that an extension for either O'Reilly or Tarasenko, whoever it ends up being, might make the sense after the season only so there isn't a chance of hard feelings during the season that one was chosen over the other. considering that's already kinda happened with ROR getting the C over Tarasenko.

I hear what you're saying but I'd much rather ROR sign the instant he is willing and let the Tarasenko situation play out. It would be hard to believe both that the discontent was always way over-perceived AND now that it's become smoothed back out so that an extension is possible, the act of signing ROR midseason provokes a new ego wound.

 

[bleedblue1223]

News: - Possible 86.5 M salary cap in 2023-24 if escrow balance paid off this season

Now, I haven't crunched the numbers on this scenario of a $86.5M cap next season, but that would certainly open up some options for Army for keeping the team together or acquiring outside pieces. On the other side of it though, someone like O'Reilly could easily up his contract demands, but still very good that we got the Thomas and Kyrou deals done before the big jump.

 

[WeWentBlues]

I could honestly see either Tarasenko or O'Reilly being extended, and there's valid arguments for both. Keeping Tarasenko keeps one of the best offensive lines together, and that's something that isn't easily replaceable. Keeping O'Reilly keeps a Selke caliber center that still produces top 6 numbers, and that's tough to replace. I think we end up keeping 1, but I won't put money on who.

Going to be difficult to resign 1. Keeping both might be impossible. But this will certainly help if it comes to fruition.

 

[STL fan in MN]

News: - Possible 86.5 M salary cap in 2023-24 if escrow balance paid off this season

Now, I haven't crunched the numbers on this scenario of a $86.5M cap next season, but that would certainly open up some options for Army for keeping the team together or acquiring outside pieces. On the other side of it though, someone like O'Reilly could easily up his contract demands, but still very good that we got the Thomas and Kyrou deals done before the big jump.

Well that would be something.

An increase of $4M (as opposed to the $1M previously projected) all of a sudden makes it mathematically possible to keep both ROR and Tarasenko (barely).

 

[Brian39]

Do you think it's a situation where Armstrong requires public pressure? If he's not open to public pressure on Perron then I'm uncertain public unhappiness with losing 57 has softened him up any. I do understand what you are getting at, just uncertain it will have an impact on Armstrong.

If Tarasenko privately communicates that he's open to an extension offer, then Armstrong knows if the deal doesn't get done Blues fans are going to find out not very long from now that Tarasenko told Armstrong he was willing to say and Armstrong was the one who walked away.

I do share bleedblue's read on the situation with Tarasenko's annoyance about the public talking about it so I doubt public pressure is his preferred style. He likes the focus to be on what's happening in games on the ice, winning and losing.

Public pressure absolutely can impact negotiations. There was zero public pressure about Perron until the weeks leading up to free agency. No one was angry about it mid-season and most people were under the assumption that it would get done. Lots of people became very angry about it over the summer. Lots of people are still angry about it. Hearing that the team is letting another fan favorite walk after he publicly said he wants to stay would create a hell of a lot more unhappiness while negotiations are ongoing.

Ultimately, Army has enough trust from ownership that he isn't going to feel that his job is threatened. But he would absolutely hear about ownership's feelings about it if there was a perceived impact on the team's bottom line. The media and fanbase spending the year talking about how re-signing Tarasenko is a priority would absolutely provide Tarasenko with more leverage in negotiations. He isn't re-signing here unless he takes a large discount. There isn't cap space to sign him at market value. Even if both sides want to get a deal done, it is absolutely in his interest to try and drive the price up with whatever leverage he has. Fueling hope that he can stay would absolutely be the best card he can play (other than continuing to play at a near-elite level).

I don't share the opinion that Tarasenko is simply annoyed that people would talk about it. He fired his notoriously 'negotiate in private' agent in order to hire an agent whose calling card is negotiating in public. That agent still represents him even though he very clearly failed to get Tarasenko what he wanted last year. He was more than willing to discuss his feelings about being passed over for the C in public. He was more than happy to slam the NHL over the decision not to go to the Olympics. If he was truly annoyed by the public speculation and his actual desire was to remain in St. Louis, he could have ended the public speculation at any point by saying so. Instead, he has specifically refused to answer any questions about his future beyond his contractual obligation to the Blues.

 

[Brian39]

ROR is already pretty much the 2C behind Thomas, so how much are the Blues willing to spend on a guy who isn't going to be a 1C going forward? I have no idea what to expect at this point.

That absolutely wasn't the case last year. He played 20 seconds a night more than Thomas in the regular season last year and that number ballooned to 2:12 a night more than Thomas during the playoffs. ROR was consistently the guy out there against the other team's top line all year and he took 450+ more faceoffs than Thomas did.

We'll see how the usage evolves this year. ROR's line looked fairly 'meh' on opening night, the Thomas line looked great and their comparative ice time reflected that. Thomas might take the 1C job this year. But he hasn't yet.

 

[tfriede2]

Going to be difficult to resign 1. Keeping both might be impossible. But this will certainly help if it comes to fruition.

That extra $3 mil might also allow the Blues to re-sign Barbashev. I don’t want to let him go.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Public pressure absolutely can impact negotiations. There was zero public pressure about Perron until the weeks leading up to free agency. No one was angry about it mid-season and most people were under the assumption that it would get done. Lots of people became very angry about it over the summer. Lots of people are still angry about it. Hearing that the team is letting another fan favorite walk after he publicly said he wants to stay would create a hell of a lot more unhappiness while negotiations are ongoing.

Ultimately, Army has enough trust from ownership that he isn't going to feel that his job is threatened. But he would absolutely hear about ownership's feelings about it if there was a perceived impact on the team's bottom line. The media and fanbase spending the year talking about how re-signing Tarasenko is a priority would absolutely provide Tarasenko with more leverage in negotiations. He isn't re-signing here unless he takes a large discount. There isn't cap space to sign him at market value. Even if both sides want to get a deal done, it is absolutely in his interest to try and drive the price up with whatever leverage he has. Fueling hope that he can stay would absolutely be the best card he can play (other than continuing to play at a near-elite level).

I don't share the opinion that Tarasenko is simply annoyed that people would talk about it. He fired his notoriously 'negotiate in private' agent in order to hire an agent whose calling card is negotiating in public. That agent still represents him even though he very clearly failed to get Tarasenko what he wanted last year. He was more than willing to discuss his feelings about being passed over for the C in public. He was more than happy to slam the NHL over the decision not to go to the Olympics. If he was truly annoyed by the public speculation and his actual desire was to remain in St. Louis, he could have ended the public speculation at any point by saying so. Instead, he has specifically refused to answer any questions about his future beyond his contractual obligation to the Blues.

He's someone that wants it on his terms. Yes, I agree he wanted his new agent to exert that public pressure on Army to force a move, and they thought it would get done, so he wouldn't have to deal with the St. Louis media, but they miscalculated on Army calling their bluff. Yes, he'll do interviews, but aren't they usually in Russia, and that's how things get back here and sometimes misinterpreted, that's how I remember the comments about the C going.

He's not someone that's going to really open up to Rutherford, Korac, or Strickland. He's not someone that likes getting pushed on those topics.

And Army isn't going to be pressured by the fans, especially if the team continues to perform. He more or less has a lifetime contract at this point.

That extra $3 mil might also allow the Blues to re-sign Barbashev. I don’t want to let him go.

Yep, that's really what I was thinking, it'll open up options for Army to ensure we still have great depth in the top 9.

 

[tfriede2]

He's someone that wants it on his terms. Yes, I agree he wanted his new agent to exert that public pressure on Army to force a move, and they thought it would get done, so he wouldn't have to deal with the St. Louis media, but they miscalculated on Army calling their bluff. Yes, he'll do interviews, but aren't they usually in Russia, and that's how things get back here and sometimes misinterpreted, that's how I remember the comments about the C going.

He's not someone that's going to really open up to Rutherford, Korac, or Strickland. He's not someone that likes getting pushed on those topics.

And Army isn't going to be pressured by the fans, especially if the team continues to perform. He more or less has a lifetime contract at this point.


Yep, that's really what I was thinking, it'll open up options for Army to ensure we still have great depth in the top 9.

Playing around with Capfriendly, it’s absolutely do-able assuming a $7 mil AAV for ROR and $4.5 AAV for Barbashev.

 

[Reality Czech]

That absolutely wasn't the case last year. He played 20 seconds a night more than Thomas in the regular season last year and that number ballooned to 2:12 a night more than Thomas during the playoffs. ROR was consistently the guy out there against the other team's top line all year and he took 450+ more faceoffs than Thomas did.

We'll see how the usage evolves this year. ROR's line looked fairly 'meh' on opening night, the Thomas line looked great and their comparative ice time reflected that. Thomas might take the 1C job this year. But he hasn't yet.

I was talking about this year, not last. Of course ROR is still gonna take the most faceoffs and will get the toughest defense assignments but Thomas is the center on our number one scoring line. Once his salary jumps to $8 million, they'll expect him to take on a lot more responsibility as well.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I can't think of any strategic advantage in Tarasenko's camp not making it very public that he wants to stay if that is in fact his desire. That would be the absolute, no doubt best way to apply pressure to Army in contract negotiations. Doing it fresh off the fanbase's anger about letting Perron walk would have been the optimal time to maximize the impact/pressure. If he wants to stay here, negotiating the extension on the heels of his team-leading 82 points in 75 games would be ideal. Army doesn't like negotiations in the media, but a well-timed 'I love it here and want to spend my entire career here' would be a pretty damn hard thing for the Blues to get angry about.

If he wanted to extend here, making that very clear to the fanbase is absolutely his best piece of leverage in negotiations. Playing up the narrative that the love/support he received from the fans changed his mind about wanting to leave puts 100% of the pressure on Army.

His agent badly misread the situation last summer, but I have a hard time believing that he would just sit on his hands and remain quiet if Tarasenko has changed his mind and now wants to stay.

I'm not sure if that type of media/fan pressure has any impact on Armstrong whatsoever. I don't disagree it would be a good move by Tarasenko's camp, but I kind of doubt it would impact Armstrong's position very much.

The only time I can remember Armstrong looking like he was sensitive to the media narrative was after Backes walked and after Pietro walked. He gave his account of the negotiations to some degree, and he doesn't usually seem to feel the need otherwise.

I'm not going to read much into Tarasenko's agent being quiet at the moment. But I also think he'll probably walk after the season, just based on a sum of all the information.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I was one of the few who was against re-signing Backes. I don’t have quite the same feeling with ROR, but it’s close.

Yeah, Backes I agree. I loved him but he was clearly in severe decline at the time and I was glad when we let him walk. I don’t see ROR as that bad of outcome, but we shall see.

 

[PocketNines]

Public pressure absolutely can impact negotiations. There was zero public pressure about Perron until the weeks leading up to free agency. No one was angry about it mid-season and most people were under the assumption that it would get done. Lots of people became very angry about it over the summer. Lots of people are still angry about it. Hearing that the team is letting another fan favorite walk after he publicly said he wants to stay would create a hell of a lot more unhappiness while negotiations are ongoing.

Ultimately, Army has enough trust from ownership that he isn't going to feel that his job is threatened. But he would absolutely hear about ownership's feelings about it if there was a perceived impact on the team's bottom line. The media and fanbase spending the year talking about how re-signing Tarasenko is a priority would absolutely provide Tarasenko with more leverage in negotiations. He isn't re-signing here unless he takes a large discount. There isn't cap space to sign him at market value. Even if both sides want to get a deal done, it is absolutely in his interest to try and drive the price up with whatever leverage he has. Fueling hope that he can stay would absolutely be the best card he can play (other than continuing to play at a near-elite level).

I don't share the opinion that Tarasenko is simply annoyed that people would talk about it. He fired his notoriously 'negotiate in private' agent in order to hire an agent whose calling card is negotiating in public. That agent still represents him even though he very clearly failed to get Tarasenko what he wanted last year. He was more than willing to discuss his feelings about being passed over for the C in public. He was more than happy to slam the NHL over the decision not to go to the Olympics. If he was truly annoyed by the public speculation and his actual desire was to remain in St. Louis, he could have ended the public speculation at any point by saying so. Instead, he has specifically refused to answer any questions about his future beyond his contractual obligation to the Blues.

Whether he should or shouldn't, I think Armstrong operates like a guy with lifetime GM job security whether it's with the Blues or not. That takes away so much of the pressure that all but very few players would have. People with a strong sense of themselves are more resistant to public pressure, and Armstrong has a strong sense of himself.

I hear what you're saying about his agent's style and the inference Tarasenko prefers that style based on the agent still being employed. It's not the strongest of inferences, though. There could be other reasons the agent remains employed which allow Tarasenko to still be annoyed with the topic being broached.

It could have been a situation where they simply miscalculated during a summer where Tarasenko was made available in the Seattle draft and feelings were hurt. He must have felt vulnerable being doubted and devalued. Issues with the first surgeries and being made available likely injured Tarasenko's sense of justice leading to a principled push to get traded. But when it didn't work, another strong driving force to compete with his sense of justice kicked in, pride of pure on-ice professionalism.

What's changed in the intervening 1+ seasons is the emergence of brilliant chemistry with one of the game's elite young passers and the addition of Buchnevich whose arrival on the team and his line he clearly enjoys. The fans also showed they still loved him with many ovations last year that clearly affected him.

So it's possible the situation has changed even if he has the same agent. It's fully possible that they haven't and his professionalism occludes our awareness he is still waiting to get out.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Whether he should or shouldn't, I think Armstrong operates like a guy with lifetime GM job security whether it's with the Blues or not. That takes away so much of the pressure that all but very few players would have. People with a strong sense of themselves are more resistant to public pressure, and Armstrong has a strong sense of himself.

I hear what you're saying about his agent's style and the inference Tarasenko prefers that style based on the agent still being employed. It's not the strongest of inferences, though. There could be other reasons the agent remains employed which allow Tarasenko to still be annoyed with the topic being broached.

It could have been a situation where they simply miscalculated during a summer where Tarasenko was made available in the Seattle draft and feelings were hurt. He must have felt vulnerable being doubted and devalued. Issues with the first surgeries and being made available likely injured Tarasenko's sense of justice leading to a principled push to get traded. But when it didn't work, another strong driving force to compete with his sense of justice kicked in, pride of pure on-ice professionalism.

What's changed in the intervening 1+ seasons is the emergence of brilliant chemistry with one of the game's elite young passers and the addition of Buchnevich whose arrival on the team and his line he clearly enjoys. The fans also showed they still loved him with many ovations last year that clearly affected him.

So it's possible the situation has changed even if he has the same agent. It's fully possible that they haven't and his professionalism occludes our awareness he is still waiting to get out.

I agree. I admire that Armstrong has always approached his decision-making with the team with the long-term health of the organization as his primary guiding principle. Yes, he makes rental deals, but he's never made moves that looked like 'job security' enhancers.

To his credit, Tarasenko has rehabilitated his roster/trade value through his play. It also doesn't hurt that he's been very professional about the situation, if its true he does want to move on after this contract. Its easy for us to make an argument where he fits in the future of the Blues. That looked impossible to many observers last off-season. (I still think he won't be re-signed, but it can be an amicable separation if/when it happens.)

 

[joe galiba]

the best thing about this website is I can just wait and someone will express a similar opinion to what I have without any typing necessary on my part

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

the best thing about this website is I can just wait and someone will express a similar opinion to what I have without any typing necessary on my part

 

[Mike Liut]

the best thing about this website is I can just wait and someone will express a similar opinion to what I have without any typing necessary on my part

We have some really good posters on here.

 

[Frenzy31]

We have some really good posters on here.

Even if there are differing opinions, they are at least well thought out. Just from a different perspective which is nice.