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2022-2023 Around The League

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Nihiliste said:
This seems like a willfully contrarian take
- a bunch of those guys are Canadians, so the Fox, Gaudreau, Tkachuk parallels don’t translate
- a bunch of these examples are Toronto related, and living in Toronto is more similar to living in a major US metro than it is to the rest of Canada
- as mentioned in my last post, Canada seems an easier sell to Scandinavians. Maybe the weather doesn’t turn them off or maybe they find the culture and social policy more similar to home, idk
- Wheeler, Helle, Stastny, etc are interesting examples in Winnipeg but there’s also been a number of people who asked to leave Winnipeg

Obviously its not an impossible deck to management and Canadians teams are mostly hampered by poor management and overactive ownership, but someone posted the numbers on the main board and the rate of high end US free agents signing in Canada is pretty low compared to the opposite situation. And we all know most of the Russian stars want to play in major US metros

Toronto and Vancouver have no excuse not to be good since players that wont consider the rest of Canada might still consider them. But I have a hard time seeing the prairie teams or the Sens build long term contenders unless they somehow find a major edge in scouting and win with primarily young, team controlled players.

As sad as it is for me to say, its also why QC should never get another team. Between the size of the market, the weather, the language barrier there’s just no way they’re going to succeed in this modern era of the NHL
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Willfully contrarian?

Why do players ask for trades from American teams, then? Why does Tarasenko want out of St. Louis? Why did Panarin and Bobrovsky refuse to re-sign with Columbus? Why did Stastny leave us?

Toronto being similar to a major US metro doesn't take away from the fact that it is a Canadian city, with Canadian laws and a Canadian way of life. Yet players aren't ditching the Leafs.

I also question how "high end" the U.S free agents really are. Teams are usually able to lock up their stars. Vancouver did it with Quinn Hughes. Toronto did it with Auston Matthews. Calgary prior did it with Johnny Gaudreau. Winnipeg did it with Blake Wheeler and Connor Hellebuyck. Montreal did it with Max Pacioretty.

Like I said, just because one guy decided he didn't want to re-sign with Calgary after 8 years when it was his right to test UFA doesn't make it more difficult for Calgary to build a winner relative to a U.S city. The Islanders went through this exact scenario with John Tavares and proceeded to make two ECF.
 
dahrougem2 said:
Willfully contrarian?

Why do players ask for trades from American teams, then? Why does Tarasenko want out of St. Louis? Why did Panarin and Bobrovsky refuse to re-sign with Columbus? Why did Stastny leave us?

Toronto being similar to a major US metro doesn't take away from the fact that it is a Canadian city, with Canadian laws and a Canadian way of life. Yet players aren't ditching the Leafs.

I also question how "high end" the U.S free agents really are. Teams are usually able to lock up their stars. Vancouver did it with Quinn Hughes. Toronto did it with Auston Matthews. Calgary prior did it with Johnny Gaudreau. Winnipeg did it with Blake Wheeler and Connor Hellebuyck. Montreal did it with Max Pacioretty.

Like I said, just because one guy decided he didn't want to re-sign with Calgary after 8 years when it was his right to test UFA doesn't make it more difficult for Calgary to build a winner relative to a U.S city. The Islanders went through this exact scenario with John Tavares and proceeded to make two ECF.
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I’ve lived in the following NHL cities:
QC
Edmonton
Calgary
Vancouver
Toronto
Raleigh
Miami
DC
LA
And some non NHL US cities

To argue that the small Canadian markets are not going to deter free agents vs almost all US markets and Toronto seems like a contrarian take to me

The US has some unattractive markets too, like Columbus, but Canada is made of primarily unattractive markets. It cant be overstated how unappealing living in the Canadian prairies is for a US millionaire. Or Quebec. Americans like to visit Montreal, but most of them wont want to live there. Toronto might be Canada but its a really appealing place to live for a rich person and a 2 hour drive to the border. Its also yet to be seen if AM34 stays since he signed a deal that took him straight to UFA. The smaller markets in Canada are not going to be able to compete as % of Americans in the league keeps growing
 
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Nihiliste said:
I’ve lived in the following NHL cities:
QC
Edmonton
Calgary
Vancouver
Toronto
Raleigh
Miami
DC
LA
And some non NHL US cities

To argue that the small Canadian markets are not going to deter free agents vs almost all US markets and Toronto seems like a contrarian take to me

The US has some unattractive markets too, like Columbus, but Canada is made of primarily unattractive markets. It cant be overstated how unappealing living in the Canadian prairies is for a US millionaire. Or Quebec. Americans like to visit Montreal, but most of them wont want to live there. Toronto might be Canada but its a really appealing place to live for a rich person and a 2 hour drive to the border. Its also yet to be seen if AM34 stays since he signed a deal that took him straight to UFA. The smaller markets in Canada are not going to be able to compete as % of Americans in the league keeps growing
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I really don't understand the last point. If the percentage of Americans in the league keeps growing, that means Americans are going to need places to play. The league isn't expanding past 32 teams. So naturally, EVENTUALLY, some Americans (despite proof that they already have been doing so) are going to have to accept playing in Canadian cities.

And again, there have been so many players both past and present that played long term and enjoyed living in Canada. Doug Weight and Bill Guerin both loved Edmonton. Alexander Mogilny was a Russian who loved Toronto. Ditto Alexander Radulov and Montreal. Pavel Bure loved Vancouver. Then we have the present-day examples of Quinn Hughes, Blake Wheeler, Auston Matthews, Connor Hellebuyck, Brady Tkachuk, Josh Norris. J.T. Miller is currently trying to sign an extension with Vancouver.

There are always outliers like Matthew Tkachuk and Jacob Trouba, but there are also outliers the opposite way like John Tavares, Jack Campbell and Claude Giroux.

I'm not arguing that these Canadian cities are more desirable to live in - they aren't. But to argue that it's more difficult to build a team in Canadian cities because a select few Americans wanted to leave? Nah. Not buying it for a second.
 
dahrougem2 said:
Willfully contrarian?

Why do players ask for trades from American teams, then? Why does Tarasenko want out of St. Louis? Why did Panarin and Bobrovsky refuse to re-sign with Columbus? Why did Stastny leave us?

Toronto being similar to a major US metro doesn't take away from the fact that it is a Canadian city, with Canadian laws and a Canadian way of life. Yet players aren't ditching the Leafs.

I also question how "high end" the U.S free agents really are. Teams are usually able to lock up their stars. Vancouver did it with Quinn Hughes. Toronto did it with Auston Matthews. Calgary prior did it with Johnny Gaudreau. Winnipeg did it with Blake Wheeler and Connor Hellebuyck. Montreal did it with Max Pacioretty.

Like I said, just because one guy decided he didn't want to re-sign with Calgary after 8 years when it was his right to test UFA doesn't make it more difficult for Calgary to build a winner relative to a U.S city. The Islanders went through this exact scenario with John Tavares and proceeded to make two ECF.
Click to expand...
WTF are you doing? Arguing against statistics?
 
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dahrougem2 said:
I really don't understand the last point. If the percentage of Americans in the league keeps growing, that means Americans are going to need places to play. The league isn't expanding past 32 teams. So naturally, EVENTUALLY, some Americans (despite proof that they already have been doing so) are going to have to accept playing in Canadian cities.

And again, there have been so many players both past and present that played long term and enjoyed living in Canada. Doug Weight and Bill Guerin both loved Edmonton. Alexander Mogilny was a Russian who loved Toronto. Ditto Alexander Radulov and Montreal. Then we have the present-day examples of Quinn Hughes, Blake Wheeler, Auston Matthews, Connor Hellebuyck, Brady Tkachuk, Josh Norris. J.T. Miller is currently trying to sign an extension with Vancouver.

There are always outliers like Matthew Tkachuk and Jacob Trouba, but there are also outliers the opposite way like John Tavares, Jack Campbell and Claude Giroux.

I'm not arguing that these Canadian cities are more desirable to live in - they aren't. But to argue that it's more difficult to build a team in Canadian cities because a select few Americans wanted to leave? Nah. Not buying it for a second.
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Well, I guess I’m happy for you that you’re not a fan of a Canadian team. No downside if I’m right about this

Regarding the % issue, I think it will matter because the % increase in top American talent will also be accompanied by an absolute decrease in the amount of top Canadian talent due to demographic, cultural, and economic changes in Canada.
 
Balthazar said:
WTF are you doing? Arguing against statistics?
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Statistics? You mean the statistics where there were 297 American-born players that played at least 1 game last year and the average number of Americans per Canadian team is 9 while the average number of Americans per American team is 9.75?
 
dahrougem2 said:
Statistics? You mean the statistics where there were 297 American-born players that played at least 1 game last year and the average number of Americans per Canadian team is 9 while the average number of Americans per American team is 9.75?
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No I mean the ones about American born players extremely disproportionately not wanting to play in Canada during their UFA years.
 
Balthazar said:
No I mean the ones about American born players extremely disproportionately not wanting to play in Canada during their UFA years.
Click to expand...
Show the list of all UFA American players leaving Canadian teams for American teams and then vice versa of Canadian players leaving American teams for Canadian teams.
 
dahrougem2 said:
Show the list of all UFA American players leaving Canadian teams for American teams and then vice versa of Canadian players leaving American teams for Canadian teams.
Click to expand...
Google is your friend, you can start here:

oilersnation.com

The Canadian Disadvantage

The NHL has evolved and changed significantly in the past 25 years wit...
oilersnation.com oilersnation.com
 
Balthazar said:
Google is your friend, you can start here:

oilersnation.com

The Canadian Disadvantage

The NHL has evolved and changed significantly in the past 25 years wit...
oilersnation.com oilersnation.com
Click to expand...
Oh god. You're seriously going to cite THAT article to "prove" your point? Here is the total number of American UFAs in the top 20 for contract AAV per year:

2016: 3 (Okoposo, Backes, Stempniak)
2017: 2 (Shattenkirk, R. Miller)
2018: 6 (van Riemsdyk, Stastny, Ryan, J. Johnson, Cole, Maroon)
2019: 4 (Hayes, Pavelski, Lee, Hainsey)

From those 80 top AAV earning UFAs 15 were American and chose to sign with American teams. Meanwhile, Canadian teams signed 20 of the 80 players.

So 23% of the league signed 25% of the big ticket UFAs.

Where on earth is the argument here? Sure Americans prefer playing in U.S cities, that doesn't make it any harder for Canadian teams to build winning teams.
 
The Moops said:
Remember when the Sabres lost Drury and Briere (and almost Vanek too) the same summer? Shit just happens sometimes.
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The Flames couldn’t really prevent this (at least not at this point). The Sabres losing Drury and Briere the same offseason was 1000% preventable and the direct result of managerial/ownership incompetence. They stupidly ignored Briere when he offered to stay at 5x5 (which would’ve been a bargain at the time) because they said they didn’t talk contracts during the season. But since they didn’t talk about contracts they were completely taken by surprise when Drury left for the Rangers and Briere bolted for way more money in Philly. Luckily for them they didn’t make the same mistake with Campbell and dealt him to SJ before losing him for nothing.

Bad as Pegula(s) has been, and it’s been pretty awful, not sure it’s been quite as comedic as the brief reign of Tom “Behold, The Buffaslug!” Golisano and his buddy Larry Quinn.

Murzu said:
Sharks have young players?
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Yes but you’ll never see them unless they install a dedicated camera on the bench during SJ broadcasts.
 
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Meh, I don't think it's a Calgary or Canada issue. Both of those players had specific reasons to leave, and this would've happened pretty much everywhere else they played as well.

I don't think Matthews wants out of Toronto, but if such a thing would happen then I would love it for chaos. But I don't think it has any indictment on Toronto or Canada either.
 
I don’t buy the American player/Canadian team narrative. I could create some narratives just as easily:



The Avs can’t keep players that want to be paid market value:

- nearly lost sakic to nyr via offersheet
- landy almost left
- Ryan O’Reilly
- stastny
Prob others too



I think the problem is these players want to play for winning teams and Canadian teams have a tough time putting winners together because they pull the cord on their rebuild at the first sniff of success because their fan bases are too damn impatient. No way in hell you could suck ass from ~2006 to ~2017 like the Avs did in a Canadian market. That total bottom out landed all our current core players that just won us the cup.
 
I think focusing on Canadian teams vs US teams is missing a large part of the picture. It is about the entirety of the cities's attractiveness to players, including weather, taxes, COUNTRY, city size, entertainment availability, political tendencies, etc... The sum of these factors make it easier or harder for an NHL franchise to be successful.

I think Canadian cities have a certain disadvantage, in part because of weather and taxes, but they are not the only ones. Other US cities like Columbus have proven that they have more than their shares of challenges too. But denying entirely that there are disadvantages in terms of attractiveness for a majority of NHL players (not all of them) tied to being a Canadian city seems wrong to me...
 
GoNordiquesGo said:
I think focusing on Canadian teams vs US teams is missing a large part of the picture. It is about the entirety of the cities's attractiveness to players, including weather, taxes, COUNTRY, city size, entertainment availability, political tendencies, etc... The sum of these factors make it easier or harder for an NHL franchise to be successful.

I think Canadian cities have a certain disadvantage, in part because of weather and taxes, but they are not the only ones. Other US cities like Columbus have proven that they have more than their shares of challenges too. But denying entirely that there are disadvantages in terms of attractiveness for a majority of NHL players (not all of them) tied to being a Canadian city seems wrong to me...
Click to expand...

Everyone will have a different opinion on this but if I had to split NHL cities into high/mid/low desirability based just on the city or area's characteristics, I'd personally probably do so as follows:

Tier 1 (High) desirability:
Boston
Brooklyn
Chicago
DC
LA
Manhattan
Tampa
Toronto
Sunrise (Miami/Fort Lauderdale)
Vancouver

Tier 1b (almost top-tier):
Montreal
Seattle

Tier 2 (middling) desirability:
Anaheim
Calgary
Dallas
Glendale
Nashville

Tier 3 (low) desirability:
Columbus
Ottawa
Philadelpha
Pittsburgh
St. Louis
Vegas

Tier 4 (Please god no) desirability:
Buffalo
Detroit
Edmonton
Winnipeg

Didn't include Denver because I know many of you live there any know it much better than me.

If were to then make adjustments for hockey related or rich-person lifestyle related considerations the following cities would rise or fall.

Risers:
Detroit - O6, strong hockey tradition, history of good management
St. Louis - have managed to remain consistently competitive, also as much as I hate it, players don't seem to mind it
Philadelphia - history, proximity to other northeastern cities
Pittsburgh - halo effect of all the generational talents they've had over the past 3.5 decades
Vegas - great place to be rich, young, and single, low taxes

Fallers:
Calgary - western Canada, weather, ownership, drop to tier 3
Toronto - insane pressure cooker, high taxes, drop to 1b
Montreal - language and cultural barrier, insane fans and media, drop to tier 3
Vancouver - western canada, taxes, long travel, ownership drop to 1b or 2
Glendale - lol, let me count the ways, drop to tier 4
Nashville - great city IMO but doesn't seem to be a favored destination of NHL players the way VGK is, drop to tier 3
Ottawa - Canada, cold, taxes, melnyk and dorion combo until recently, drop to tier 4
Edmonton - western canada, weather, insane fans, history of horrible management and ownership drop it into its own new tier of misery

Sunrise/Ft Lauderdale/Miami would have previously been a faller due to management and lack of fanbase but no longer post-Zito.


Basically, the US has some shitty hockey cities too, but also has a lot more nice metros

I also think that several of the Canadian cities are less desirable to rich young NHL players than they would be to the average person for reasons mentioned above

This issue isn't really limited to hockey, the big cities keep attracting more and more wealth and talent in all fields because they have the most to offer to the people who bring those things

Edit: realized I forgot Minny altogether lol. f*** those guys, not going to add them to the lists
 
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Spirits said:
Outside of Toronto, yeah. Toronto has a mystical hold over some players, but it also repels other players.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's not just a hockey thing. When I lived in Toronto, most of the people I met who grew up in the GTA never wanted to leave. Hard to blame them either, like the biggest US metros, you never really have to leave.
 
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