Rumor: 2022-2022 Trade Rumors and Free Agency Part 14: Sakic goes back to bed

[The Kingslayer]

Having Nichushkin should be a reminder that some players aren’t fully developed by the time they’re 20. That raises an entirely different question. Do you think Nichushkin can continue to evolve skills wise? He’s arguably the Avs 4th most important F now and has markedly improved his game even since last season. Isn’t he like 27? That’s nuts that he’s still developing. I used to think he might re-up at less than $6M/AAV but if he has a super PO performance then perhaps not.

I think Nukes biggest issues early on were between the ears. He seems to have always had abilities I mean the guy wasnt a Top 10 pick for no reason. Size, skating ability and skill. Nukes career was saved by Sakic and Bednar the same way Olli Jokinens career was saved by Mike Keenan. Opportunity and the right culture results in what we see from Nuke right now. Just think of all the guys who had similar situations but werent so fortunate to land on a team like the Avs.

 

[nammerus]

Yeah, really. As in Eichel is sitting at home watching the POs and Byram is waiting to see if it’s the Wild or Blues that he’ll be playing next in the POs. That tells you what the management’s priority was and is in terms of the price it was willing to pay.

That’s not true. They inquired about him, but couldn’t afford the cap hit (i.e. Buffalo wouldn’t retain). In no way does that constitute them passing on him.

 

[Richard88]

He didn't take a pass on Eichel though. He tried to get him.


Defense can prop a team up, Centers are what win cups.


I know you guys are just a vocal minority right now but it's still surprising to see people who haven't caught onto this.

Yeah the story was that Avs were interested but insisted on some retention which Buffalo didn't want to do.

 

[flyfysher]

That’s not true. They inquired about him, but couldn’t afford the cap hit (i.e. Buffalo wouldn’t retain). In no way does that constitute them passing on him.

The Avs absolutely wanted Eichel. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. But not at the cost of Byram. That speaks to the team’s priorities if I’m being more pointed about it. Sakic didn’t feel it necessary to give what the Sabres wanted to acquire that 2C. He thinks he can replace Kadri elsewhere.

 

[Iceberg]

The Avs absolutely wanted Eichel. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. But not at the cost of Byram. That speaks to the team’s priorities if I’m being more pointed about it. Sakic didn’t feel it necessary to give what the Sabres wanted to acquire that 2C. He thinks he can replace Kadri elsewhere.

You have no idea... LOL

 

[The Kingslayer]

Yeah the story was that Avs were interested but insisted on some retention which Buffalo didn't want to do.

Gotta give Adams props for that deal. Landed Krebs, Tuch and some other things with no retention.

 

[Foppa2118]

Yeah, I'm fine with PLD. However, you need to ask yourself this. The difference in our D compared to last season is Manson, Byram and EJ right now. So trading away Byram? Okay. What about EJ? Let's say EJ doesn't return - remember all of the chatter this last season from various posters wanting to dump him. Do you think the Avs would be competitive without Byram and EJ and a lesser D-man like Nemeth or Graves in their place? Already been there, done that. We know how that turned out. And two weeks ago, our fans were up in arms over Manson. Look at teams like the Rangers and the Panthers with their D right now. I don't want to sacrifice the Avs' D to get a 2C at the cost of Byram. Girard would be the D-man that I'd move to get that done. As between trading him or re-signing Toews, that's the way I'd lean.

I think I was the one that floated the Dubois idea, and it was for Girard or Girard+Newhook. I'd be willing to do both if needed.

There's no need to trade Byram. Especially not before Girard. Bo is better and a lot cheaper.

 

[Freaky Styley]

Well thank god you're not the GM either.


Imagine actually thinking Defense is more important than Center... Yikes

What is the most important position in hockey? 5 reasons why it is the centermen - Hockey Answered

What position has the greatest impact on the game of hockey? Hockey fans love to debate about all things hockey, and there has been lots of debate over what the most important position in hockey is. So, what is the most important position in hockey? The centermen is the most important position...

hockeyanswered.com

Literally every article and its the same thing, without even diving into the analytics of the positions and the value added from a Center versus any other position.

Top pairing D is more important than #2C. Do as many polls as you like on it, I'm not sure you'll like the results.

#1D and #1C are equally valuable positions, and it's extremely difficult to win the Cup without both of those. Having 1 is possible, neither impossible.

 

[shadow1]

The Avs have been in on everyone and their dog the last few years. Kreider, Panarin, Hall, Jones, Eichel, Giroux...

They haven't landed a single one of the those players. But Sakic has pulled off several out-of-nowhere style trades that as a whole have been exceptional for the Avs (Burakovsky, Kadri, Saad, Toews, Manson, Lehkonen).

Colorado obviously needs a center this off-season, but I don't think the interest in Eichel means that they're definitively going for some home run swing to fill the Kadri void. Sakic always goes after the big fish, but never catches them.

 

[Freaky Styley]

I mean, call it whatever you want. He's not going to be a #1D Doesn't have the skill set IMO.

Again, I'd really like to know what he's lacking for this to be possible. As a high end draft pick given what he's shown already in the NHL at 20 years old. He's already elite defensively and the offensive tools are clear as day.

Pierce, when you're wrong you're wrong. Bookmark this and come talk to me in 3 years.

 

[Foppa2118]

We have this same debate all the time about 1C vs 1D.

We've seen the Avs and other teams with shitty defenses not go anywhere despite having a star 1C. Teams with not very good forwards but good defenses are usually better teams. We also saw the Blues win the Cup with centers that arguably aren't 1C's. The Devils two Cups might also fall into that category.

You can win without a high end 1C if you play a more defensive style, but you can't win without a good 1D by playing an offensive style.

 

[Nihiliste]

Realistically you need elite centers and defensemen, unless you're Pittsburgh with two generational centermen.

Just off the top of my head looking back at recent winners

Lighting 20/21: Point/Cirelli/Gourde + Hedman/Mcdonagh/Cernak + Vasi - Very balanced, center depth probably better than D but their 1D and 1G were both elite

Blues 19: O'reilly/Schenn/Bozak + Pietrangelo/Parayko/JBo + Binnington streaking - pretty balanced, D probably > C

Caps 18: Kuzy/Backstrom/Eller/Stephenson + Carlson/Orlov/Niskanen/etc. + Holtby - Centers and forwards in general were definitely superior to the D in terms of top end talent but their D was pretty deep that year and Holtby put up a great run

Pens 16/17 - didn't really watch these teams that much, but looking at rosters obvious centers >>> D

Chicago 15 - Toews/Richards/Vermette/Kruger + Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarsson/Oduya/Timonen + Crawford - probably D > C but arguably Kane drives his line like a C

LAK 14 - Kopitar/Richards/Stoll/Carter (played mostly wing I believe?) + Doughty/Mitchell/Greene/Regehr/Voynov/Muzzin/Martinez + Quick - can't remember who actually played what roles through the run, but frankly elite depth at all 3 positions, centers more high end

Chicago 13 - Toews/Handzus/Bolland/Kruger + Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarsson/Oduya/Leddy + Crawford. Again D > C but you could consider Kane a unique substitue to having a 2C.

LAK12 - Kopitar/Richards/Stoll/Carter + Doughty/Mitchell/Greene/Scuderi/Martinez + Quick. Again C's higher end than D on average, but they did also have an elite 1D and 1G and strong depth on D.

Bruins 11 - Bergeron/Krejci and some combination of Seguin/Kelly/Campbell/etc that i can't remember in the bottom 6 + Chara/Seidenberg/Boychuk/Ference/Mcquaid + Thomas/Rask. Elite 1C/G/D, deep everywhere.

Chicago 10 - Toews/Bolland/can't remember + Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarsson/Campbell/Sopel + Niemi. I'm forgetting who they ran at 2C in the playoffs, but again Kane factor. Regardless, the D was elite.

Pens 09 - Obviously C >>> D/G

Wings 08 - Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Fillpula/Draper/Helm + Lidstrom/Rafalski/Kronwall/Stuart/Chelios - C and D both elite.

Ducks 07 - Macdonald/rookie Getzlaf/Pahlsson + Pronger/Neidermeyer/Beauchemin + Giguere/Bryzgalov - D > C

Can't really remember what the Canes ran with.


Basically Pens/Caps won without a truly elite 1D
Chicago won with less than elite G, arguably had better defense than centers
Ducks won with better defensemen than centers but they had legendary two HOF 1Ds and two 1Gs
Boston/Kings/Lightning/Blues very balanced

One thing I'm taking away from this exercise is that a lot of these teams were even more stacked than the 21-22 Avs, some by quite a bit.

 

[The Abusement Park]

We have this same debate all the time about 1C vs 1D.

We've seen the Avs and other teams with shitty defenses not go anywhere despite having a star 1C. We also saw the Blues win the Cup with centers that arguably aren't 1C's. The Kings two Cups and the Devils two Cups might also fall into that category.

You can win without a high end 1C if you play a more defensive style, but you can't win without a good 1D by playing an offensive style.

How is Carter and Kopi not elite C depth? STL also had good C depth, ROR is very certainly a 1C, but one who’s ridden the line of elite and definitely at least hit elite level during the cup year.

To win a cup you basically need a 1C and 1D minimum. But we’ve seen teams win a cup basically playing 4D(Chicago) and some with no legit 1D(Pittsburgh and Carolina). As for a lack of 1C you have potentially the Ducks, but that was Getzlafs coming out party and he was obviously elite or the Devils. So about the same really. But looking at the list basically all the cup winners are at least 3C’s deep.

 

[dahrougem2]

I mean, call it whatever you want. He's not going to be a #1D Doesn't have the skill set IMO.

He literally has every skillset required to be a #1 defensemen. His ceiling is just beneath Cale Makar's if he's able to hit it.

 

[Foppa2118]

How is Carter and Kopi not elite C depth? STL also had good C depth, ROR is very certainly a 1C, but one who’s ridden the line of elite and definitely at least hit elite level during the cup year.

To win a cup you basically need a 1C and 1D minimum. But we’ve seen teams win a cup basically playing 4D(Chicago) and some with no legit 1D(Pittsburgh and Carolina). As for a lack of 1C you have potentially the Ducks, but that was Getzlafs coming out party and he was obviously elite or the Devils. So about the same really. But looking at the list basically all the cup winners are at least 3C’s deep.

I took out LA immediately, because I forgot Kopitar was with them. You must have replied immediately. He hadn't fully broken out yet but he still counts. I don't consider Carter a 1C. He had 1 year outside of 60ish points and it was with Philly.

ROR is arguably not a true 1C. I can understand the argument that he is but he's been a 60 point center his entire career except one year. Last two years he had good numbers per game but he also wasn't tested for a full season. This year with scoring at its highest in a long time he had 58 points in 78 games.

Usually you need both a 1C and 1D, but to me it's very clear that 1D and defense in general is more important. You can build a very good team with an average forward core and good defense, but not vice versa. All you have to do is looks at the Avs pre Bednar with arguably three 1C's if you think ROR is a 1C.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Realistically you need elite centers and defensemen, unless you're Pittsburgh with two generational centermen.

Yeah you definitely want a 1C and a 1D, but the 1C is the most important position.


It's why the Hart trophy, and the Conn Smythe Trophy are won significantly more by Centers then Dmen. It's the most important position and has the biggest impact on the game.


And beyond that Center depth is the biggest key ingredient in winning a cup as well.

 

[Nihiliste]

I took out LA immediately, because I forgot Kopitar was with them. You must have replied immediately. He hadn't fully broken out yet but he still counts. I don't consider Carter a 1C. He had 1 year outside of 60ish points and it was with Philly.

ROR is arguably not a true 1C. I can understand the argument that he is but he's been a 60 point center his entire career except one year. Last two years he had good numbers per game but he also wasn't tested for a full season. This year with scoring at its highest in a long time he had 58 points in 78 games.

Usually you need both a 1C and 1D, but to me it's very clear that 1D and defense in general is more important. You can build a very good team with an average forward core and good defense, but not vice versa. All you have to do is looks at the Avs pre Bednar with arguably three 1C's if you think ROR is a 1C.

ROR apparently struggled with effects of COVID this season.

In the cup winning year he put together a Selke/Smythe combo with 77 pts in 82G in the regular season and 23 pts in 26G in the playoffs while outplaying Bergeron in the finals. Doesn't matter if he's not normally a true 1C, he was during the season that they actually won.

 

[Foppa2118]

ROR apparently struggled with effects of COVID this season.

In the cup winning year he put together a Selke/Smythe combo with 77 pts in 82G in the regular season and 23 pts in 26G in the playoffs while outplaying Bergeron in the finals. Doesn't matter if he's not normally a true 1C, he was during the season that they actually won.

It does matter IMO. A defenseman can have a career year or get hot in the playoffs too, but I wouldn't consider them a 1D.

ROR was 32nd in scoring in his career year and 40th in 5 on 5 scoring.

 

[Nihiliste]

It does matter IMO. A defenseman can get red hot for one year or in the playoffs too, but I wouldn't consider him a 1D.

What matters is what the winning combination looks like. As a GM, you can’t count on a guy just randomly getting hot and playing above his head all season so you’re going to try to build your team based on the level of the pieces it actually takes to win

 

[Foppa2118]

What matters is what the winning combination looks like. As a GM, you can’t count on a guy just randomly getting hot and playing above his head all season so you’re going to try to build your team based on the level of the pieces it actually takes to win

I agree but I think that aligns with my argument more than yours.

I would bet Armstrong didn't really expect them to win the Cup that year. They missed the playoffs the year before, and were out of the playoffs somewhere around half way through the season that year IIRC.

 

[Nihiliste]

I agree but I think that aligns with my argument more than yours.

I would bet Armstrong didn't really expect them to win the Cup that year. They missed the playoffs the year before, and were out of the playoffs somewhere around half way through the season that year IIRC.

I think you’re missing the POV that I’m discussing this from. What were the actual pieces that won so that we can build a winner, not what did Armstrong think he was going to accomplish that year

 

[Foppa2118]

I think you’re missing the POV that I’m discussing this from. What were the actual pieces that won so that we can build a winner, not what did Armstrong think he was going to accomplish that year

We've covered that. I've already said I don't believe the pieces were a 1C and explained why.

 

[Balthazar]

Byram absolutely has a 1D upside. He already has the skating, the skill and the IQ. He only has to work on his shot and his size, which is normal for someone his age who missed a whole year of development.

Just be patient. It's such a great news that he played all those games since his return without missing one...yet nobody talks about it.

 

[SaltySkywalker]

Byram absolutely has a 1D upside. He already has the skating, the skill and the IQ. He only has to work on his shot and his size, which is normal for someone his age who missed a whole year of development.

Just be patient. It's such a great news that he played all those games since his return without missing one...yet nobody talks about it.

Everyone's noticing. I just think we're too scared to acknowledge it out-loud in case we jinx it!

 

[Foppa2118]

BTW @Nihiliste I understand your argument about the finished product, I just don't agree with the reasoning and you don't agree with mine. No big deal.