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Rumor: 2022-2022 Trade Rumors and Free Agency Part 14: Sakic goes back to bed

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Foppa2118 said:
I took out LA immediately, because I forgot Kopitar was with them. You must have replied immediately. He hadn't fully broken out yet but he still counts. I don't consider Carter a 1C. He had 1 year outside of 60ish points and it was with Philly.

ROR is arguably not a true 1C. I can understand the argument that he is but he's been a 60 point center his entire career except one year. Last two years he had good numbers per game but he also wasn't tested for a full season. This year with scoring at its highest in a long time he had 58 points in 78 games.

Usually you need both a 1C and 1D, but to me it's very clear that 1D and defense in general is more important. You can build a very good team with an average forward core and good defense, but not vice versa. All you have to do is looks at the Avs pre Bednar with arguably three 1C's if you think ROR is a 1C.
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I mean is Bergeron a 1C? If he is I don't know why ROR wouldn't. He's played at a 70pt pace in STL while providing Selke level defense. Also Avalanche ROR was certainly at least right on the edge of being a 1C. 50-60pts in that scoring environment with his defense was pretty dang close. But also those Avs teams aren't really good for the C/D argument because you could've had Gretzky and Mario down the middle and I think that they wouldn't win a cup.
 
Foppa2118 said:
We've covered that. I've already said I don't believe the pieces were a 1C and explained why.
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You think a PPG center with Selke defense that outplays Bergeron and ends the playoffs as the MVP for the cup winning team that also had 1D and a very hot goaltender on a miracle run isn’t a 1C? We’re not going to agree here I guess
 
Foppa2118 said:
I took out LA immediately, because I forgot Kopitar was with them. You must have replied immediately. He hadn't fully broken out yet but he still counts. I don't consider Carter a 1C. He had 1 year outside of 60ish points and it was with Philly.

ROR is arguably not a true 1C. I can understand the argument that he is but he's been a 60 point center his entire career except one year. Last two years he had good numbers per game but he also wasn't tested for a full season. This year with scoring at its highest in a long time he had 58 points in 78 games.

Usually you need both a 1C and 1D, but to me it's very clear that 1D and defense in general is more important. You can build a very good team with an average forward core and good defense, but not vice versa. All you have to do is looks at the Avs pre Bednar with arguably three 1C's if you think ROR is a 1C.
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Oh I absolutely believe Ryan O'Reilly was a 1C. A centre that can provide 60+ point offensive output while playing Selke caliber defense is a true 1C. A guy like Patrice Bergeron for example doesn't really outproduce ROR all that much.
 
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Nihiliste said:
You think a PPG center with Selke defense that outplays Bergeron and ends the playoffs as the MVP for the cup winning team that also had 1D and a very hot goaltender on a miracle run isn’t a 1C? We’re not going to agree here I guess
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Yes like I just said we don't agree with each other, and that's fine.

ROR was 32nd in scoring that year and 40th in 5 on 5 scoring and his Selke defense and 1D on that team supports my argument not yours.
 
dahrougem2 said:
Oh I absolutely believe Ryan O'Reilly was a 1C. A centre that can provide 60+ point offensive output while playing Selke caliber defense is a true 1C. A guy like Patrice Bergeron for example doesn't really outproduce ROR all that much.
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Bergeron has three 70+ point seasons and his career high was 79 points in 65 games.

ROR has one 70+ point season of 77 in 82 the same year Bergeron had 79 in 65.
 
Balthazar said:
Byram absolutely has a 1D upside. He already has the skating, the skill and the IQ. He only has to work on his shot and his size, which is normal for someone his age who missed a whole year of development.

Just be patient. It's such a great news that he played all those games since his return without missing one...yet nobody talks about it.
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Agree on the 1D upside and that he needs to bulk up a bit, but I think Byram's shot is already quite good.

Not Makar good, but pretty good. Maybe even better than Toews, Toews just shoots more. The issue IMO is Bo's been playing it overly safe and not shooting enough. This was the issue his first year too.

When he was shooting more early this season, he had 5 goals in 18 games before he took his pause.









 
Foppa2118 said:
Agree on the 1D upside and that he needs to bulk up a bit, but I think Byram's shot is already quite good.

Not Makar good, but pretty good. Maybe even better than Toews, Toews just shoots more.
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Byram has a decent wrist shot...below Makar and probably on par with Toews.

However, Toews has the best slap shot on this team and it's not close, he likely has the best slap shot from any Avs dman since Rob Blake.
 
Foppa2118 said:
Yes like I just said we don't agree with each other, and that's fine.

ROR was 32nd in scoring that year and 40th in 5 on 5 scoring and his Selke defense and 1D on that team supports my argument not yours.
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I find this quirk of declaring which argument a discrete piece of information supports without actually explaining why to be kind of amusing. It might seem self evident to you why Selke level defense would detract from the idea that ROR played like a 1C in 2019, but I’m not sure that it’s self evident to everyone else. Certainly not to me, since that’s a big part of the resume of other great 2-way 1Cs.

As for the 1D, as you can see from the list above, most of the teams that won had 1Ds. The presence of absence of a 1D has no bearing on the argument of whether or not a particular player performed like a 1C.

If what you mean is that you think my argument is that centers are more important, I think you’ve misunderstood me. In my summary post of previous winners I basically called it a mixed bag. But I do contend that regardless of which is more important, O’reilly played like a 1C in his Smythe campaign
 
Nihiliste said:
I find this quirk of declaring which argument a discrete piece of information supports without actually explaining why to be kind of amusing. It might seem self evident to you why Selke level defense would detract from the idea that ROR played like a 1C in 2019, but I’m not sure that it’s self evident to everyone else. Certainly not to me, since that’s a big part of the resume of other great 2-way 1Cs.

As for the 1D, as you can see from the list above, most of the teams that won had 1Ds. The presence of absence of a 1D has no bearing on the argument of whether or not a particular player performed like a 1C.

If what you mean is that you think my argument is that centers are more important, I think you’ve misunderstood me. In my summary post of previous winners I basically called it a mixed bag. But I do contend that regardless of which is more important, O’reilly played like a 1C in his Smythe campaign
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I think you're trying way too hard to nitpick what I'm saying and refusing to let it go, even though I've said multiple times now that we just don't agree and that's ok.

Especially when I started this conversation saying, "ROR is arguably not a true 1C. I can understand the argument that he is..." Then I just made the case for my argument and you took issue with it.

It also should be very clear why me saying, "ROR was 32nd in scoring that year and 40th in 5 on 5 scoring and his Selke defense and 1D on that team supports my argument not yours" supports my argument not yours. I shouldn't have to explain that if you've read what I said. Again, if you don't agree, that's fine.
 
The Wahligator said:
Hello Avs fans congrats on the series win. I was wondering what the general belief is on Burakovsky’s future, do you think he will be re-signed? Thanks
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Very very doubtful. He was good last year but he's had a pretty down year this season. His shot was much more inconsistent/less effective and he had way too many turnovers.

They don't have the cap space to gamble on a UFA contract for him.
 
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The Wahligator said:
Thanks for the response. Just cap reasons or something else?
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Cap and he's also a very frustrating player to watch. He has some offensive skills but he's completely disinterested defensively, soft along the boards, and prone to really bad turnovers.


He's gonna get overpaid by quite a bit this summer. Any team giving him more than $5M will have made a big mistake.
 
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Foppa2118 said:
I think you're trying way too hard to nitpick what I'm saying and refusing to let it go, even though I've said multiple times now that we just don't agree and that's ok.

Especially when I started this conversation saying, "ROR is arguably not a true 1C. I can understand the argument that he is..." Then I just made the case for my argument and you took issue with it.

It also should be very clear why me saying, "ROR was 32nd in scoring that year and 40th in 5 on 5 scoring and his Selke defense and 1D on that team supports my argument not yours" supports my argument not yours. I shouldn't have to explain that if you've read what I said. Again, if you don't agree, that's fine.
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I honestly don't care at all that you don't think he's a 1C, I'm literally just not following your train of thought in your responses to me.

I could see how the sentence you quoted in the last paragraph could be an argument against elite 1Cs being the most important piece (because a team could win a more defensive approach and one could argue that he's not a 1C and one could argue that Blues D was better than their center depth) - though I've never made the argument in this thread that they're more important.

But its completely nonobvious to me why you think that his defense being Selke level detracts from the idea that he's a 1C. Or put another way, its as obvious to me that his defense being Selke level supports him being a 1C when combined with his offense, as it apparently obvious to you that it detracts from him being a 1C.
 
Nihiliste said:
I honestly don't care at all that you don't think he's a 1C, I'm literally just not following your train of thought in your responses to me.

I could see how the sentence you quoted in the last paragraph could be an argument against elite 1Cs being the most important piece (because a team could win a more defensive approach and one could argue that he's not a 1C and one could argue that Blues D was better than their center depth) - though I've never made the argument in this thread that they're more important.

But its completely nonobvious to me why you think that his defense being Selke level detracts from the idea that he's a 1C. Or put another way, its as obvious to me that his defense being Selke level supports him being a 1C when combined with his offense, as it apparently obvious to you that it detracts from him being a 1C.
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The Selke aspect was the most minor point of that sentence, but it still aligns with the point I made previously about teams without true 1C's winning by playing a defensive oriented system. I wasn't suggesting being a Selke level player is a negative for a 1C.

I just place a higher priority on production for "true" 1C’s than you and others do. Even with Selke level defense. But like I said originally I can understand the argument that ROR is a 1C, because it's close, and he's a great two way player.

Hopefully that clears it up.
 
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Foppa2118 said:
The Selke aspect was the most minor point of that sentence, but it still aligns with the point I made previously about teams without true 1C's winning by playing a defensive oriented system. I wasn't suggesting being a Selke level player is a negative for a 1C.

I just place a higher priority on production for "true" 1C’s than you and others do. Even with Selke level defense. But like I said originally I can understand the argument that ROR is a 1C, because it's close, and he's a great two way player.

Hopefully that clears it up.
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Agreed, Oreilly had a big season when they won the cup but that isn’t the norm. Oreilly is a low end 1C and high end 2C in my opinion
 
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Foppa2118 said:
Bergeron has three 70+ point seasons and his career high was 79 points in 65 games.

ROR has one 70+ point season of 77 in 82 the same year Bergeron had 79 in 65.
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Just because his point productions have been in the 60s rather than 70s does not take away from him being a 1C given the level of defense he's capable of playing. ROR hasn't always been a 1C but I'd argue for the last several years he has been, probably since his final season in Buffalo.
 
Nihiliste said:
They won’t trade Kempe
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I swear there was like half a season a few years back where Joe could have done a Jost for Kempe swap around the deadline, before Kempe broke out. Maybe with a small plus on the Avs side.

Kempe was underperforming and there were lots of whispers about the Kings possibly moving him. Always thought he'd be a great fit in Colroado.

I've felt the same about Nick Paul being a good fit, even though they're a little different stylistically.
 
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