Rumor: 2022-2022 Trade Rumors and Free Agency Part 14: Sakic goes back to bed

[shadow1]

This is from Frank Seravalli

Bura is considerably higher than Nuke on the list, makes you wonder what's the perception of both players from the outside.

Even Manson is higher than Nuke.

Daily Faceoff’s first Top 50 Free Agents ranking of the summer, which uses sourced information and market intelligence to blend a list that factors in both potential impact and total potential dollars earned:

I feel like Seravalli = good with rumors, =/= good with analysis.

John Klingberg over Kris Letang.

I guess he says at the top this is a combination of dollars earned + impact, but how does that explain Ryan Strome being 7 spots higher than Vincent Trochek (he should be lower in both areas).

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Lol what's a 3rd pairing in that scenario. Play 14F and 4D.

Or...you have MacDermid and another goon on the bench just mean mugging people all game.

 

[Chiarelli]

Anyone been following Kamenev? Any chance he can fill a roster spot for us next year?

 

[The Abusement Park]

Anyone been following Kamenev? Any chance he can fill a roster spot for us next year?

He’s had 26pts in his last 55 KHL games. Not that is what he should be purely judged on, but I don’t think he’s good enough for the NHL. Maybe the coyotes or something.

 

[Hasbro]

Anyone been following Kamenev? Any chance he can fill a roster spot for us next year?

The KHL knowers said he’s got a new contract there.

 

[UncleRisto]

The KHL knowers said he’s got a new contract there.

And why wouldn't he. Nobody else is going to play there.

 

[Foppa2118]

You recently called me out for being too results oriented after game 5 against the Blues, which was fair. But on the same note, Toronto came within a hair’s breadth of eliminating the Bolts in 6 if the latter weren’t handed a 5 on 3 late in the game. Then they controlled the play throughout OT and lost when Matthews blew a tire, leaving Point open. In game 7, they were defeated by Vasi. I don’t think we can gather much useful insight into the relative value of a a 1D vs 1C from that particular series.

I’m in the camp that you need both.

Pronger carried Edmonton and Philly to the finals, but lost both times.

Nashville’s rotation of guys like Weber/Suter/Hamhuis/Josi/etc were never able to win, even with good goaltending most of the time.

Outlier teams have won with lesser defense (Pens with Crosby/Malkin, Caps with Ovi/Kuzy/Backstrom) and with lesser forward groups (Blues 2019, Ducks 2007).

But most of the time you need both.

I do think that having a true 1D raised the floor of a team more than having a 1C. For example Lidstrom was the key to the Wings 20 year playoff streak, or Pronger as mentioned above turning flawed teams into contenders. But without a top end 1C that can break games open you’re unlikely to get to championship level. Look at the Hurricanes for example, Slavin is absolutely elite but Aho wasn’t good enough to carry the team through as the 1C

My point on this is simply 1D is more important than 1C. It's not that 1C's aren't important too or that every team with a 1D wins.

The sample size for Edmonton and Toronto isn't just this year. We've had a few years now. And we know they don't have good defenses or a true 1D. I think that is the biggest reason why both teams lost. Give them better defenses and a 1D and they have a shot at winning IMO.

I truly believe it's much harder to win with good forwards and no defense, than it is the reverse. Toronto, Edmonton, and the Duchene/ROR/Stasnty era Avalanche show that IMO.

 

[22FUTON9]

Premature but if that really is indeed his last game as an oiler, I’d love to snatch puljujarvi out of Edmonton

 

[The Abusement Park]

My point on this is simply 1D is more important than 1C. It's not that 1C's aren't important too or that every team with a 1D wins.

The sample size for Edmonton and Toronto isn't just this year. We've had a few years now. And we know they don't have good defenses or a true 1D. I think that is the biggest reason why both teams lost. Give them better defenses and a 1D and they have a shot at winning IMO.

I truly believe it's much harder to win with good forwards and no defense, than it is the reverse. Toronto, Edmonton, and the Duchene/ROR/Stasnty era Avalanche show that IMO.

I mean you need both. But there are more recent examples of teams with less than elite D cores winning a cup than less than elite C cores.

I mean the Avs had 2 1D on the roster last year and bowed out in the 2nd round. I think having Kadri this year has made a massive difference and is the biggest reason this team has been so good in the playoffs this year.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Premature but if that really is indeed his last game as an oiler, I’d love to snatch puljujarvi out of Edmonton

We just dont have space. He's going to be an excellent addition for some team for sure, but the Avs just have far too many wingers and not enough Centers at this point and Pizza boy doesn't solve that unfortunately.

Assuming they bring back Nichushkin, Avs already have 4 Top 9 wingers in Landy/Mikko/Nuke/Lehky, possibly even 6 wingers if you count Newhook and JTC as wings next year. Newhook especially shouldn't start as a Center IMO. Need to focus our attention on the 2C spot.

 

[Foppa2118]

The thing is, the Avs have two legitimate #1 defensemen. It allows Bednar to either play them together and dominate play against a single line, or split them up so essentially the entire game you have a #1 defenseman on the ice. Having two allows you to counter both top heavy and deep teams. Having one top defensemen leaves a lot a holes to be exploited, especially on the road, so you need to compensate with elite play from other parts of the team.

Obviously a 1C is also very important, but I agree with you that if you can have one or the other it's better to have a 1D.

I would disagree that Toews is a 1D. He's a very good defenseman, but I would slot him as a 2D. He hasn't had a perfect year either. He struggled for a month or so around January and has had some tough moments in the playoffs. But overall he's a very good defenseman and a capable top pairing guy.

 

[ABasin]

If all you look at is traditional stats, Bura really does look like the better player, give how difficult it is to find goal scoring. He's a legit 30-goal scorer, and those are hard to find. I'll bet there are people out there who think Nuke only produces because he's playing with star players like MacKinnon or Kadri. I sincerely hope that list represents the general opinion of the hockey community. Leave Nuke alone. He's ours!

Burakovsky is a legit 30 goal scorer?

 

[Foppa2118]

I mean you need both. But there are more recent examples of teams with less than elite D cores winning a cup than less than elite C cores.

I mean the Avs had 2 1D on the roster last year and bowed out in the 2nd round. I think having Kadri this year has made a massive difference and is the biggest reason this team has been so good in the playoffs this year.

Again, you obviously need both. My point is that defense is more important than 1C's. Whenever someone says 1C is the most important position, nobody ever says, "well you need both, defense is important too."

 

[Pokecheque]

I would like to reiterate how mad I still am that they drafted Jost over McAvoy. It's clear they liked McAvoy as well since they were requesting him when there were Landeskog to Bruins rumours. We'd have three of the top 10-15 D in the league, and have an up and comer that could join that group.

Imagine...

Toews-Makar
Byram-McAvoy

Your third pairing would just have to go out there for 10 minutes.

That 2014 offseason was an abject disaster. The Avs made almost every bad move a team could make, draft, free agency, EVERYTHING was a complete and total pratfall. It set the stage for what would happen two years later.

But you have to admit, had it not gone down that way, had they not f***ed up so badly in 2014 and then paid the price in the worst season of the modern era, they would not have Cale Makar today. All of that failure was worth enduring for that...at least in hindsight, it sure sucked donkey balls at the time.

I'm not too bitter about Jost now, certainly now that the Avs finally admitted failure and moved on (and Jost gets a reset he desperately needed as well). What I'm still bitter about is the lack of effort to draft and develop a proper goalie.

 

[Muffin]

Next reclamation project? He could he a fit here with Rantanen and Lehkonen on the team.

 

[Pokecheque]

Anyone been following Kamenev? Any chance he can fill a roster spot for us next year?

Nope. He's not an NHL player. And he proved that the night he just...ran into Brooks Orpik.

 

[Nihiliste]

Again, you obviously need both. My point is that defense is more important than 1C's. Whenever someone says 1C is the most important position, nobody ever says, "well you need both, defense is important too."

People say that all the time though. Like when we had a bunch of centers and no D that’s all we talked about

 

[Foppa2118]

People say that all the time though. Like when we had a bunch of centers and no D that’s all we talked about

I've never seen it mentioned when people say 1C is the most important position. It's pretty much just blanket agreement or a couple people like myself who say 1D is more important. But nobody takes the 1C declaration as an either/or situation.

 

[Pokecheque]

I'd say 1C is still more important than a 1D to a championship roster. The thing is...finding a legit gamebreaking 1D is much harder than finding a legit 1C. Most any team can tank it 1-2 years and find that franchise center. It's not as often you can do that and come away with a top defenseman.

 

[Nihiliste]

I've never seen it mentioned when people say 1C is the most important position. It's pretty much just blanket agreement or a couple people like myself who say 1D is more important. But nobody takes the 1C declaration as an either/or situation.

I feel like this is just arguing about anecdotal perception at this point. Maybe we notice the opposite positions because we come at the discussion from different directions. But I can’t ever remember a time when people discounted the 1D position - as long as I’ve watched hockey it’s been the conventional wisdom that you need that Stevens, Lidstrom, Pronger, Neidermeyer, Doughty, Keith, all around 1D. It was only from 2016-18 that you had more than a one off winner that didn’t have a truly elite 1D

 

[Foppa2118]

I feel like this is just arguing about anecdotal perception at this point. Maybe we notice the opposite positions because we come at the discussion from different directions. But I can’t ever remember a time when people discounted the 1D position - as long as I’ve watched hockey it’s been the conventional wisdom that you need that Stevens, Lidstrom, Pronger, Neidermeyer, Doughty, Keith, all around 1D. It was only from 2016-18 that you had more than a one off winner that didn’t have a truly elite 1D

See again though, there's almost nothing here I disagree with, because you're saying both are important. Which they are.

But only when I say 1D/defense is "more important" do I see rebuttals of "you need both" as if I was implying otherwise. I haven't seen that happen when someone says 1C is the most/more important position.

I'm simply saying which is more important. That you can win with a low end 1C/2C and a good D core/1D, but it's much harder to win with a a poor D core/low end 1D/2D and a high end 1C. I don't believe it's a 50/50 breakdown in importance so to speak. Things usually aren't.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

To give your team the best chance to win a cup, you need all three of a 1C, 1D, and 1G...


But history has shown pretty frequently that you need a 1C more then you need a 1D to win the cup, especially elite ones. As the saying goes... An elite Dman or Defense can raise your teams floor, elite centers are what win cups.


There's exceptions to the rule when you start talking about a generational Dman like Makar however. He's the type of player that breaks the code.

 

[Nihiliste]

See again though, there's almost nothing here I disagree with, because you're saying both are important. Which they are.

But only when I say 1D/defense is "more important" do I see rebuttals of "you need both" as if I was implying otherwise. I haven't seen that happen when someone says 1C is the most/more important position.

I'm simply saying which is more important. That you can win with a low end 1C/2C and a good D core/1D, but it's much harder to win with a a poor D core/low end 1D/2D and a high end 1C. I don't believe it's a 50/50 breakdown in importance so to speak. Things usually aren't.

Tell it to the Hurricanes though.

Winning the cup is hard, I really think you need an elite player at both to actually have a good probability of winning.

I don’t think you can prioritize one or the other and actually plan on being a real contender. Like when we had 4 top 6 Cs and no D we had no hope, but now if we took away Mackinnon and had Makar + prime Duchene and Stastny we still would be pretenders

The exception teams usually double up on one of the positions:

Pens had 2 generational C’s, and even then they had lower end 1Ds for their run. Caps defied the advanced stats in their win.

Devils had Stevens/Neidermeyer and Brodeur to backstop them, Ducks had Pronger/Neidermeyer and Giguere/Bryz tandem in net and it’s not like they had bad centers - they just weren’t in the usual super elite tier that we normally saw winning all the time.

The list of winning centers is just as elite as the list of winning Dmen. You don’t see too many Sebastian Aho tier centers winning the cup no matter who their dmen are, and vice versa.

 

[dahrougem2]

Who is more important to the team for recent Cup winners?

20/21: Brayden Point vs Victor Hedman
19: Ryan O'Reilly vs Alex Pietrangelo
18: Evgeny Kuznetsov vs John Carlson
17: Sidney Crosby vs Brian Dumoulin
16: Sidney Crosby vs Kris Letang
15: Jonathan Toews vs Duncan Keith
14: Anze Kopitar vs Drew Doughty
13: Jonathan Toews vs Duncan Keith
12: Anze Kopitar vs Drew Doughty
11: Patrice Bergeron vs Zdeno Chara
10: Jonathan Toews vs Duncan Keith
09: Sidney Crosby vs Sergei Gonchar
08: Henrik Zetterberg vs Nicklas Lidstrom
07: Andy McDonald vs Chris Pronger
06: Eric Staal vs whoever the f*** Carolina had on D

I don't know... for most of these it feels like if you remove one or the other, the team doesn't win. They seem equally as important to me. Minus Carolina, Anaheim, and Pittsburgh.

 

[The Abusement Park]

If I was building my roster and could pick any player to start, I think the best C of that timeframe would almost always be my first pick.