Rumor: 2022-2022 Trade Rumors and Free Agency Part 14: Sakic goes back to bed

[The Abusement Park]

I don't think you can win a Cup without a high-end center. And I don't consider O'Reilly low-end by any means. He's an elite two-way center and Conn Smythe winner. He also presented the biggest challenge to the Avs' top guns thus far. It's not a coincidence both MacKinnon and Makar scored in bunches against Edmonton and Nashville and not a whole lot against St. Louis. Both O'Reilly and Buchnevich played a large role in that.

I also don't think you can really win without a legit top defenseman, though IMO they aren't as important as a top-end center. The Carolina Cup win was not just the fluke or fluke runs, it was a very weird time in league history when no one really knew how to build a team under the cap. It left things WIDE open--there's a reason both teams in that 2006 Cup Final weren't seen from again for a good long time. The closest a team has come in the modern era to win it without a legit #1 d-man is Vancouver, but even then Dan Hamhuis was playing out of his mind that season and sorta filled that role. Once his game came back down to Earth, the Canucks struggled mightily. They also had some tremendous center depth that got destroyed with injuries to Malhotra and later, Kesler.

Pittsburgh won a cup without one in 2015 or 16 I can’t remember. I mean you need both, but I still think losing your top C will typically be more detrimental than your top dman.

 

[Balthazar]

The closest a team has come in the modern era to win it without a legit #1 d-man is Vancouver

Well in that case both Montreal and Dallas made it to the cup finals in the last 2 years without a legit 1C. That's who Tampa had to beat to win their 2 cups.

What above picture?

I didn't say the above picture, I said above the picture.

This:

Daily Faceoff’s first Top 50 Free Agents ranking of the summer, which uses sourced information and market intelligence to blend a list that factors in both potential impact and total potential dollars earned:

 

[Pokecheque]

Well in that case both Montreal and Dallas made it to the cup finals in the last 2 years without a legit 1C. That's who Tampa had to beat to win their 2 cups.

I'd argue (not strongly) that Seguin, before the injuries set in, was a legit top line center. Not elite, but still top line.

And Danault is arguably the best defensive forward in hockey. Not surprising the very delicate thread holding the Habs together completely unraveled the moment he left. Oh and, y'know, Price.

That said, I'd say your argument is pretty valid. I'd say both of those runs were ridiculous flukes that took place under the auspices of the pandemic.

 

[Balthazar]

I'd say both of those runs were ridiculous flukes that took place under the auspices of the pandemic.

Perhaps, but the year before that it was Vegas...

 

[The Abusement Park]

Perhaps, but the year before that it was Vegas...

The year before that was Boston and STL who had both an elite 1C and 1D.


Vegas was 100% a fluke the year they made it. MTL was in a sense a fluke, but they had insane C depth, a 1D and Price who was playing at an elite level.

 

[Hasbro]

Good and bad because someone might offer sheet him

Because that happens all the time!

 

[Hasbro]

Yeah JTC has done everything you could have asked for this playoff run. He gets shit on here a bunch but the reality is he's a pretty effective 3rd liner and is showing his worth this playoff run.


He's probably the 3C next year. One thing we've noticed from Bednar especially this playoff run is he likes having two guys on each line that can play Center or at least take a faceoff.... I'll continue pounding the table for Nick Paul as a UFA target this summer. Would be a fantastic fit on the 3rd line here, with Lehky forming that trio.


Nuke - Mack - Landy
Mikko - ???? - Newhook
Lehky - JTC - Paul



Find a quality 2C and that is once again a phenomenal Top 9.

I like JTC so much better on the wing.

I’d also like a cheapo right shooting veteran as a power play specialist to keep Bednar from using him on PP1 (Kessel’s fat ass?)

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I like JTC so much better on the wing.

I’d also like a cheapo right shooting veteran as a power play specialist to keep Bednar from using him on PP1 (Kessel’s fat ass?)

A right shot 2C would be a particularly good target IMO.



I like the idea of Kessel, I just think especially if the plan is for Newhook as a Winger, our Wings are already pretty filled up with Nuke, Landy, Mikko, Newhook, and Lehky on the Wing already.


If you put JTC at Wing we have 6 Top 9 wingers already.

It's part of what makes Trocheck appealing to me as a UFA.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I would it mind grabbing Kulak in free agency, but I think he’ll be out of the Avs price range.

 

[Pokecheque]

Perhaps, but the year before that it was Vegas...

True. Not surprising they too have yet to replicate that success.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Re-sign Nuke and Manson, and go for Motte?

just re-sign cogliano and helm.

 

[ABasin]

I like JTC so much better on the wing.

I’d also like a cheapo right shooting veteran as a power play specialist to keep Bednar from using him on PP1 (Kessel’s fat ass?)

If they put JTC on the wing next season, who in Hades is going to play center? Then we need two centers??? And then the year after that, when someone else signs Compher for $4M+?

I've said this before, but I don't get why so many people are down on JTC. He's certainly not an upper end 2C, but he's not a bad hockey player. And he can play the C position. And he's a reasonable (albeit not great) defensive C also.

And Kessel's chins alone would send Bednar into fits.

 

[M2Beezy]

I think Avs lost the rights to Aman one hour ago as today was the deadline for European prospects.

I know you guys think that trying to win a stanley cup is a big thing and all, but we just signed Aman and hes our #1 centre prospect already, and it doesnt even matter if hes a centre he still is...

Jealous Aves fans??

 

[Richard88]

This is from Frank Seravalli

Bura is considerably higher than Nuke on the list, makes you wonder what's the perception of both players from the outside.

Even Manson is higher than Nuke.

Daily Faceoff’s first Top 50 Free Agents ranking of the summer, which uses sourced information and market intelligence to blend a list that factors in both potential impact and total potential dollars earned:

What sort of contract do y'all envisage Tyler Motte getting? He's a player who would fit the Avs style well.

 

[Hasbro]

If they put JTC on the wing next season, who in Hades is going to play center? Then we need two centers??? And then the year after that, when someone else signs Compher for $4M+?

I've said this before, but I don't get why so many people are down on JTC. He's certainly not an upper end 2C, but he's not a bad hockey player. And he can play the C position. And he's a reasonable (albeit not great) defensive C also.

And Kessel's chins alone would send Bednar into fits.

Crouse obv.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Damn just saw Gurianov signed with Dallas. Was hoping they were gonna let him walk and the Avs could snag him.

 

[BrickNHL]

I know you guys think that trying to win a stanley cup is a big thing and all, but we just signed Aman and hes our #1 centre prospect already, and it doesnt even matter if hes a centre he still is...

Jealous Aves fans??

I’m just proud of you for using Ave

 

[TruePowerSlave]

This is from Frank Seravalli

Bura is considerably higher than Nuke on the list, makes you wonder what's the perception of both players from the outside.

Even Manson is higher than Nuke.

Daily Faceoff’s first Top 50 Free Agents ranking of the summer, which uses sourced information and market intelligence to blend a list that factors in both potential impact and total potential dollars earned:

At least we know that the guy doesn't watch Avs hockey at all, nobody who did would rank Bura that high and above Nuke.

 

[MarkT]

Now that the two best centers in the league (McDavid, Matthews) on teams with bad defenses and no 1D, were eliminated in the first round, and swept in the conference finals, that should officially prove to everyone that 1D's and defense in general are more important than 1C's.

Defense wins. It's the great equalizer. You can't go anywhere in the NHL without it. 1D > 1C

The thing is, the Avs have two legitimate #1 defensemen. It allows Bednar to either play them together and dominate play against a single line, or split them up so essentially the entire game you have a #1 defenseman on the ice. Having two allows you to counter both top heavy and deep teams. Having one top defensemen leaves a lot a holes to be exploited, especially on the road, so you need to compensate with elite play from other parts of the team.

Obviously a 1C is also very important, but I agree with you that if you can have one or the other it's better to have a 1D.

To add to that, Sakic seems to like having players in contract years, as evidenced by the short term deals he's handed out to the likes of Nichuskin, Burakovsky, Zadorov, etc, along with the acquisition of Saad with one year term. Seems most likely that he'll bet on JTC having a good year as a pending UFA.

Also worth bearing in mind that the Avs front office will have their hands full with either trying to sign Kuemper, Nichuskin, Manson, Kadri, Burakovsky, Helm, and/or Cogliano as UFA's, along with Lehkonen and NAK as RFA's.. or their replacements... and needless to say they'll probably shy away from moving JTC just for the sake of some stability and one less thing to worry about.

I think the Avs would ideally like to keep Compher, but if cap room is needed I think he becomes a luxury. The Avs may need to start going cheap on the bottom 6 and hope guys like Newhook and Myers can pick up the slack. Hopefully some good players come here on bargain contracts trying to hunt for a cup.

At least we know that the guy doesn't watch Avs hockey at all, nobody who did would rank Bura that high and above Nuke.

If all you look at is traditional stats, Bura really does look like the better player, give how difficult it is to find goal scoring. He's a legit 30-goal scorer, and those are hard to find. I'll bet there are people out there who think Nuke only produces because he's playing with star players like MacKinnon or Kadri. I sincerely hope that list represents the general opinion of the hockey community. Leave Nuke alone. He's ours!

 

[Nihiliste]

Now that the two best centers in the league (McDavid, Matthews) on teams with bad defenses and no 1D, were eliminated in the first round, and swept in the conference finals, that should officially prove to everyone that 1D's and defense in general are more important than 1C's.

Defense wins. It's the great equalizer. You can't go anywhere in the NHL without it. 1D > 1C

You recently called me out for being too results oriented after game 5 against the Blues, which was fair. But on the same note, Toronto came within a hair’s breadth of eliminating the Bolts in 6 if the latter weren’t handed a 5 on 3 late in the game. Then they controlled the play throughout OT and lost when Matthews blew a tire, leaving Point open. In game 7, they were defeated by Vasi. I don’t think we can gather much useful insight into the relative value of a a 1D vs 1C from that particular series.

I’m in the camp that you need both.

Pronger carried Edmonton and Philly to the finals, but lost both times.

Nashville’s rotation of guys like Weber/Suter/Hamhuis/Josi/etc were never able to win, even with good goaltending most of the time.

Outlier teams have won with lesser defense (Pens with Crosby/Malkin, Caps with Ovi/Kuzy/Backstrom) and with lesser forward groups (Blues 2019, Ducks 2007).

But most of the time you need both.

I do think that having a true 1D raised the floor of a team more than having a 1C. For example Lidstrom was the key to the Wings 20 year playoff streak, or Pronger as mentioned above turning flawed teams into contenders. But without a top end 1C that can break games open you’re unlikely to get to championship level. Look at the Hurricanes for example, Slavin is absolutely elite but Aho wasn’t good enough to carry the team through as the 1C

 

[shadow1]

I don't think you can win a Cup without a high-end center. And I don't consider O'Reilly low-end by any means. He's an elite two-way center and Conn Smythe winner. He also presented the biggest challenge to the Avs' top guns thus far. It's not a coincidence both MacKinnon and Makar scored in bunches against Edmonton and Nashville and not a whole lot against St. Louis. Both O'Reilly and Buchnevich played a large role in that.

I also don't think you can really win without a legit top defenseman, though IMO they aren't as important as a top-end center. The Carolina Cup win was not just the fluke or fluke runs, it was a very weird time in league history when no one really knew how to build a team under the cap. It left things WIDE open--there's a reason both teams in that 2006 Cup Final weren't seen from again for a good long time. The closest a team has come in the modern era to win it without a legit #1 d-man is Vancouver, but even then Dan Hamhuis was playing out of his mind that season and sorta filled that role. Once his game came back down to Earth, the Canucks struggled mightily. They also had some tremendous center depth that got destroyed with injuries to Malhotra and later, Kesler.

Just adding to the conversation, Pittsburgh did in 2017 by virtue of Letang missing the entire playoffs. Their defense was:

Dumoulin (21:59) - Schultz (19:44)
Maata (20:37) - Daley (19:07)
Cole (18:50) - Hainsey (21:07)

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Just adding to the conversation, Pittsburgh did in 2017 by virtue of Letang missing the entire playoffs. Their defense was:

Dumoulin (21:59) - Schultz (19:44)
Maata (20:37) - Daley (19:07)
Cole (18:50) - Hainsey (21:07)

Difference there is that Pittsburgh also had two elite 1C.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

I would like to reiterate how mad I still am that they drafted Jost over McAvoy. It's clear they liked McAvoy as well since they were requesting him when there were Landeskog to Bruins rumours. We'd have three of the top 10-15 D in the league, and have an up and comer that could join that group.

Imagine...

Toews-Makar
Byram-McAvoy

Your third pairing would just have to go out there for 10 minutes.

 

[Nihiliste]

I would like to reiterate how mad I still am that they drafted Jost over McAvoy. It's clear they liked McAvoy as well since they were requesting him when there were Landeskog to Bruins rumours. We'd have three of the top 10-15 D in the league, and have an up and comer that could join that group.

Imagine...

Toews-Makar
Byram-McAvoy

Your third pairing would just have to go out there for 10 minutes.

Meh, butterfly effect. Who knows how future drafts and trades would have worked out. Maybe wouldn’t have drafted Makar or wouldn’t have traded for Toews

 

[dahrougem2]

I would like to reiterate how mad I still am that they drafted Jost over McAvoy. It's clear they liked McAvoy as well since they were requesting him when there were Landeskog to Bruins rumours. We'd have three of the top 10-15 D in the league, and have an up and comer that could join that group.

Imagine...

Toews-Makar
Byram-McAvoy

Your third pairing would just have to go out there for 10 minutes.

Lol what's a 3rd pairing in that scenario. Play 14F and 4D.