Red Sox/MLB 2021 Hot Stove III - Jackie Bradley Jr. Signs w/ Brewers

[LSCII]

The narrative should be take the time needed and do it right

You just gave me insight you did not watch Sox last year

Devers was a disgrace - reported out of shape, led league I believe in errors, struck out consistently at such an alarming rate of average fastballs it was discussed on MLB network

yah he’s a game breaker worth going off the plan

come on

Why would a player dedicate himself to the team when the team hasn't dedicated itself to winning and to the players? They basically did a salary dump of their best every day player and their best starting pitcher and rolled into the season with a slew of scrubs in the rotation. There was zero reason to expect or believe that they were going to contend, and their last place finish showed exactly what they were. They stunk on ice. The proverbial turd in the punchbowl. It was an unwatchable season, ffs. They had 2 players in the batting order that could hit and the rest were garbage.

 

[DKH]

Yankees rebuild
2013 85 (3)
2014 84 (2)
2015 87 (2)
2016 84 (4)

fans stayed away - empty seats behind home plate

oh - salary over 1 B over 4 years #1 in
MLB

 

[Gator Mike]

I can't see thre current vision lasting. If the Red Sox come out of the gates like last year there will be calls to fire Bloom from every direction it will be overwhelming. In this division its compete with the Yankees or find someone that will.

See... here's the thing. They ARE trying to compete with the Yankees. They're just trying to set themselves up so that they can compete with them for the next 10 years. Bloom said it himself - their internal evaluation when he first took over was that if they didn't change the direction of the franchise that they were going to fall further and further behind the other teams in the AL East.

If ownership bails on their long-term plan because they get too impatient, then they deserve to ride that "now we're good, now we're bad" roller coaster that they seemed upset to be on.

I also dont care about John Henry paying a luxury tax. He also owns a soccer team. Big deal. Maybe he's not focused on the Sox as much bc of that

Imagine how many Championships John Henry and Bob Kraft would have if they didn't also own soccer teams.

 

[LSCII]

Yankees rebuild
2013 85 (3)
2014 84 (2)
2015 87 (2)
2016 84 (4)

fans stayed away - empty seats behind home plate

oh - salary over 1 B over 4 years #1 in
MLB

Again, the Sox missed the playoffs more than the Dodgers and Yankees combined. That's who they compete with. You can't win it all if you don't even make it. Have to get to the dance before you can ask the hot chick if she wants to hit the floor, no?

But given the 2023 prognostications, do you think it's acceptable for them to miss the playoffs 7 times over the last 11 years and then come out and say they're doing a rebuild and will in all honesty, miss it again for the next 3 seasons? That would be 10 times out of 14 season where they weren't even contenders. Is that acceptable? If we were Tampa or Baltimore, I'm sure they'd say they'd take the 2 titles and happily accept it, but Boston isn't Baltimore or Tampa. The expectations are for them to compete every season, so to see the ownership group just write off a chunk of time like this is problematic to me.

 

[DKH]

Again, the Sox missed the playoffs more than the Dodgers and Yankees combined. That's who they compete with. You can't win it all if you don't even make it. Have to get to the dance before you can ask the hot chick if she wants to hit the floor, no?

But given the 2023 prognostications, do you think it's acceptable for them to miss the playoffs 7 times over the last 11 years and then come out and say they're doing a rebuild and will in all honesty, miss it again for the next 3 seasons? That would be 10 times out of 14 season where they weren't even contenders. Is that acceptable? If we were Tampa or Baltimore, I'm sure they'd say they'd take the 2 titles and happily accept it, but Boston isn't Baltimore or Tampa. The expectations are for them to compete every season, so to see the ownership group just write off a chunk of time like this is problematic to me.

highest payrolls in mlb 2016 - Google Search

Yankees from 2013 -2018 highest payroll in baseball

0 WS

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...greed-not-stubhub-reason-for-empty-seats/amp/

 

[LSCII]

highest payrolls in mlb 2016 - Google Search

Yankees from 2013 -2018 highest payroll in baseball

0 WS

Sure but using your own logic to excuse away the misses, the Yankees have won the title more than any other team in MLB history. Since they won it more, that means they can not win it all and they're fans should just shut up and be happy, no?

See how that works? Titles are great, but the expectation isn't that winning one gives you the right to suck. These big market teams are expected to and should be competitive all the time given the unlevel playing field they have in their favor against all but 2 or 3 other teams in this league. Mediocrity isn't acceptable, writing off multiple seasons in a row isn't acceptable. Especially when it was their own f***ing fault for painting themselves into a corner.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Sure but using your own logic to excuse away the misses, the Yankees have won the title more than any other team in MLB history. Since they won it more, that means they can not win it all and they're fans should just shut up and be happy, no?

See how that works? Titles are great, but the expectation isn't that winning one gives you the right to suck. These big market teams are expected to and should be competitive all the time given the unlevel playing field they have in their favor against all but 2 or 3 other teams in this league. Mediocrity isn't acceptable, writing off multiple seasons in a row isn't acceptable. Especially when it was their own f***ing fault for painting themselves into a corner.

Hal Steinbrenner does a decent job not meddling in day to day ops from what I have seen. Also the Yankess do a decent job of maintaining a professional environment in contrast to FSG group.

 

[DKH]

Sure but using your own logic to excuse away the misses, the Yankees have won the title more than any other team in MLB history. Since they won it more, that means they can not win it all and they're fans should just shut up and be happy, no?

See how that works? Titles are great, but the expectation isn't that winning one gives you the right to suck. These big market teams are expected to and should be competitive all the time given the unlevel playing field they have in their favor against all but 2 or 3 other teams in this league. Mediocrity isn't acceptable, writing off multiple seasons in a row isn't acceptable. Especially when it was their own f***ing fault for painting themselves into a corner.

Everyone has different expectations

They are here and they fired their GM

They have a plan and thankfully it appears to no meddling from ownership and getting Panda and Hanley at Tom Werner suggestion

I find it interesting others on the Felger & Mazz show want a team that can compete now

way of the world

I’m good with it, Tony from Sudbury isn’t.

I love following Downs, Duran, Wallace, Houck etc....others couldn’t care less

just what you’re into

like Patriots/ I like the Mock Drafts and watching Daniel Jerimiah and Bucky Brooks on NFL All Access discuss prospects while other fans zero interest

I’m all over the Sox rebuild and enjoying it but I’m a different cat

 

[LSCII]

Hal Steinbrenner does a decent job not meddling in day to day ops from what I have seen. Also the Yankess do a decent job of maintaining a professional environment in contrast to FSG group.

This is a big part of it for me. Tom Werner doesn't give a shit about the team or if it wins. He's trying to produce a television show as if it's some f***ed up sport version of The Real World. Dysfunction is all around this team and it starts up top.

 

[DKH]

Sure but using your own logic to excuse away the misses, the Yankees have won the title more than any other team in MLB history. Since they won it more, that means they can not win it all and they're fans should just shut up and be happy, no?

See how that works? Titles are great, but the expectation isn't that winning one gives you the right to suck. These big market teams are expected to and should be competitive all the time given the unlevel playing field they have in their favor against all but 2 or 3 other teams in this league. Mediocrity isn't acceptable, writing off multiple seasons in a row isn't acceptable. Especially when it was their own f***ing fault for painting themselves into a corner.

I wasn’t around for 15 WS appearances in 18 years when Bill Dickey and Yogi Berra were the primary Yankees catchers

I saw 4 WS and family went to 4 parades

that’s the end result with me

 

[LSCII]

I wasn’t around for 15 WS appearances in 18 years when Bill Dickey and Yogi Berra were the primary Yankees catchers

I saw 4 WS and family went to 4 parades

that’s the end result with me

Sure, and I get that. But again, why is this group so disliked despite the wins, while the rest of the owners have never won it yet aren't nearly as hated. It's very telling, no?

 

[CDJ]

“He owns another sports team” isn’t the argument some people think it is...

especially in a pandemic

And double especially when they pretty much spend to the luxury tax threshold every season and then will go over it and take penalties for a couple years when they are actual WS contenders

this “Henry is cheap” stuff is spoiled, cry-baby bullshit. There are plenty of things you can criticize them for- being cheap is not one of them

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

See... here's the thing. They ARE trying to compete with the Yankees. They're just trying to set themselves up so that they can compete with them for the next 10 years. Bloom said it himself - their internal evaluation when he first took over was that if they didn't change the direction of the franchise that they were going to fall further and further behind the other teams in the AL East.

If ownership bails on their long-term plan because they get too impatient, then they deserve to ride that "now we're good, now we're bad" roller coaster that they seemed upset to be on.


Imagine how many Championships John Henry and Bob Kraft would have if they didn't also own soccer teams.

It's simply going to be difficult to trust the execution until we see the results considering Mookie and 26 year old Benintendi were traded away to make it possible. If these prospects turn into the next core then everything is wonderful again.

 

[DKH]

Sure, and I get that. But again, why is this group so disliked despite the wins, while the rest of the owners have never won it yet aren't nearly as hated. It's very telling, no?

I get the public perception but I’m not part of it so I’m good with them and their commitment and rebuild plan. I’m good with it others aren’t lol

Like the SIM where many hate Joe but I like him

As Bill Belichick says ‘it is what it is’

 

[Smitty93]

Again, the Sox missed the playoffs more than the Dodgers and Yankees combined. That's who they compete with. You can't win it all if you don't even make it. Have to get to the dance before you can ask the hot chick if she wants to hit the floor, no?

But given the 2023 prognostications, do you think it's acceptable for them to miss the playoffs 7 times over the last 11 years and then come out and say they're doing a rebuild and will in all honesty, miss it again for the next 3 seasons? That would be 10 times out of 14 season where they weren't even contenders. Is that acceptable? If we were Tampa or Baltimore, I'm sure they'd say they'd take the 2 titles and happily accept it, but Boston isn't Baltimore or Tampa. The expectations are for them to compete every season, so to see the ownership group just write off a chunk of time like this is problematic to me.

The counterargument is that they've fired two GMs in that period, both of whom won the World Series, so that's a sign that they didn't find their work to be acceptable.

I know you like to complain just to complain , but it seems to me that they're trying to be what you want: a contender every year. Your problems seem to be that (1) you can't get past the fact that they screwed it up in the first place, something that everyone else here is annoyed by too, but we've moved on, and (2) that they couldn't fix their problems in 1-2 years, which is just unrealistic.

 

[LSCII]

“He owns another sports team” isn’t the argument some people think it is...

especially in a pandemic

And double especially when they pretty much spend to the luxury tax threshold every season and then will go over it and take penalties for a couple years when they are actual WS contenders

this “Henry is cheap” stuff is spoiled, cry-baby bullshit. There are plenty of things you can criticize them for- being cheap is not one of them

So this is the heart of the matter for me. Fans who defend these guys always point to spending to the cap and winning a handful of titles as justification, and I get that argument. It's fair to say they may not be a contender every year but they've won it more than every team in the last 20 years, so that's the trade off. And if they made that argument, I'd actually accept it. Where it breaks down for me though is the selling off of what are core players because they grossly overspent on the wrong people. You can't f*** up that badly and then use it as an excuse for why the team isn't competitive. You take the good with the bad, and you accept it and own it. You don't get to say we were up against the luxury threshold because we paid a fat f*** like Panda nearly $20 mill a season to not be here for the last 5 years. You don't get to blame the former GM for signing guys like Chris Sale to crazy extensions when he clearly has arm issues and pretend he went rogue and didn't get your sign off. That's the issue I have with these guys. It's okay to f*** up. It's not okay to use them as excuses for why you don't retain your own key players that you developed and you don't get to use it as an excuse for why you're going to scrimp for 4 years. Just own the f*** up, and say we tried and it didn't work. We're going to reset now, but we're also going to augment that rebuild with better baseball decisions on UFAs instead of making them based on television ratings.

 

[LSCII]

The counterargument is that they've fired two GMs in that period, both of whom won the World Series, so that's a sign that they didn't find their work to be acceptable.

I know you like to complain just to complain , but it seems to me that they're trying to be what you want: a contender every year. Your problems seem to be that (1) you can't get past the fact that they screwed it up in the first place, something that everyone else here is annoyed by too, but we've moved on, and (2) that they couldn't fix their problems in 1-2 years, which is just unrealistic.

They fired two GMs because they needed a scapegoat. The GMs had zero autonomy to do things however they wanted. The GM's did nothing without the ownerships approval. I mean does anyone honestly think that Ben Cherrington's pick for manager was really Bobby Valintine? Does anyone really believe that Dombrowski signed Sale to that extension without Henry's approval?

I dislike these guys so much because of how they only care about PR and spin instead of winning. And sure, I do enjoy a good argument, but in this case, there really isn't one. These guys are unlikeable jerks. Simple as that. I follow the team despite them and I celebrate the wins despite them.

 

[DKH]

The counterargument is that they've fired two GMs in that period, both of whom won the World Series, so that's a sign that they didn't find their work to be acceptable.

I know you like to complain just to complain , but it seems to me that they're trying to be what you want: a contender every year. Your problems seem to be that (1) you can't get past the fact that they screwed it up in the first place, something that everyone else here is annoyed by too, but we've moved on, and (2) that they couldn't fix their problems in 1-2 years, which is just unrealistic.

I got one good friend over there and my take is the owners were playing GM to much Cherrington and he got completely hosed

had they let Cherington GM he’s likely still here and Sandoval and Ramirez weren’t

the Lester calamity was Larry Lucchino who liked to overlap into Baseball Ops -this was a real problem with Theo

Ben answered to Larry from day 1

Dombrowski different situation and with LaRussa and Wren they ran this - likely Henry specifically didn’t like playing the Bob Kraft role

Bloom will be able to do his thing when Henry saw the Dodgers model and write the CBT checks

 

[Centrum Hockey]

This is a big part of it for me. Tom Werner doesn't give a shit about the team or if it wins. He's trying to produce a television show as if it's some f***ed up sport version of The Real World. Dysfunction is all around this team and it starts up top.

Going to Red Sox Away game in another park is a fantastic experience its easier to watch your favorite baseball team play without the overproduced nonsense.

 

[Smitty93]

They fired two GMs because they needed a scapegoat. The GMs had zero autonomy to do things however they wanted. The GM's did nothing without the ownerships approval. I mean does anyone honestly think that Ben Cherrington's pick for manager was really Bobby Valintine? Does anyone really believe that Dombrowski signed Sale to that extension without Henry's approval?

I dislike these guys so much because of how they only care about PR and spin instead of winning. And sure, I do enjoy a good argument, but in this case, there really isn't one. These guys are unlikeable jerks. Simple as that. I follow the team despite them and I celebrate the wins despite them.

Yeah, but no one's arguing that FSG are a likable group, except @DKH, but he likes everyone . The good news is that winning often goes hand in hand with good PR.

 

[CDJ]

So this is the heart of the matter for me. Fans who defend these guys always point to spending to the cap and winning a handful of titles as justification, and I get that argument. It's fair to say they may not be a contender every year but they've won it more than every team in the last 20 years, so that's the trade off. And if they made that argument, I'd actually accept it. Where it breaks down for me though is the selling off of what are core players because they grossly overspent on the wrong people. You can't f*** up that badly and then use it as an excuse for why the team isn't competitive. You take the good with the bad, and you accept it and own it. You don't get to say we were up against the luxury threshold because we paid a fat f*** like Panda nearly $20 mill a season to not be here for the last 5 years. You don't get to blame the former GM for signing guys like Chris Sale to crazy extensions when he clearly has arm issues and pretend he went rogue and didn't get your sign off. That's the issue I have with these guys. It's okay to f*** up. It's not okay to use them as excuses for why you don't retain your own key players that you developed and you don't get to use it as an excuse for why you're going to scrimp for 4 years. Just own the f*** up, and say we tried and it didn't work. We're going to reset now, but we're also going to augment that rebuild with better baseball decisions on UFAs instead of making them based on television ratings.

And that’s completely reasonable, it’s also very different than saying they’re cheap. Destroying them for how they spent their money is for sure fair game.

I think the bolded is what you’re seeing now and why Bloom was brought in. If they fire Bloom for them being ok this year then we know it’s going to be more of the same old bullshit and I’m gonna excoriate them

 

[LSCII]

Going to Red Sox Away game in another park is a fantastic experience its easier to watch your favorite baseball team play without the overproduced nonsense.

Agreed. Been to Baltimore a bunch of times and the overall experience is far superior than the manufactured nonsense that they do here trying to attract casual fans. People want to go to Fenway to see the park because it's historic. Let it stand on its own. There's no need to do all the other BS.

 

[LSCII]

Yeah, but no one's arguing that FSG are a likable group, except @DKH, but he likes everyone . The good news is that winning often goes hand in hand with good PR.

It does, but strangely that doesn't seem to register to these guys. They still go out of their way to smear former players and coaches, and explain away every little thing, which makes you wonder what's really going on there? Very thin skinned group of people, apparently.

 

[Gator Mike]

It's simply going to be difficult to trust the execution until we see the results considering Mookie and 26 year old Benintendi were traded away to make it possible. If these prospects turn into the next core then everything is wonderful again.

Agreed. I think Chaim Bloom has the right plan. But if it turns out that he stinks at talent evaluation, then it's not gonna work.

I will say this, though... I love Alex Verdugo. That's a real positive first sign. But it's way too early to judge most of the prospects that Bloom has acquired.

 

[DKH]

Yeah, but no one's arguing that FSG are a likable group, except @DKH, but he likes everyone . The good news is that winning often goes hand in hand with good PR.

Probably why my boss told me I’m the most liked person in a building of 2,000 employees