2021 Blues Regular Season multi-purpose thread

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BlueDream

Registered User
Aug 30, 2011
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So our team is now off for a week. After getting some rest, just about everyone should be back around the time of our next game. Kostin (2 assists in 3 Springfield games on his conditioning stint) can come back, Sundqvist will be finishing up Covid protocol, and Perron, Thomas and Kyrou were close so they will surely be back. Walman and Husso too. The only ones I'm not sure about are Schenn and Neal but I don't think their injuries will be much longer either.

So, let's start some roster discussion. What do we look like when fully healthy? Unfortunately some of the Springfield guys, despite playing well, will have to go down. My thoughts:

- Peca is the easiest one to send down as he provides very little.
- Neal doesn't have a place on this team anymore, too old and slow. We have better options. He may stay on LTIR, but if he's healthy, then waive him.
- Waive Walman too as he doesn't provide anything, and keep Perunovich up since he has nothing to prove in the AHL.
- I would run 3 goalies for a bit because we can't really afford to lose Lindgren at the moment. Let's see if/when he cools off and protect ourselves in net in case of another injury.
- Joshua, Walker and Toropchenko were good but I think they will go back down, as I'm just not quite sure they are there yet as far as being consistent contributors. It's just gonna be a numbers game at this point. They are solid bottom 6 players and one of them (either Joshua or Walker) may stick if we move a goalie.
- Brown sticks, the Blues won't want to lose him on waivers. The other 3, I believe, won't require them.

My lines:

Saad - ROR - Perron
Buchnevich - Barbashev - Tarasenko
Schenn - Thomas - Kyrou
Kostin - Brown - Sundqvist
Bozak

Mikkola-Parayko
Krug-Faulk
Scandella-Bortuzzo
Perunovich

Binnington
Husso
Lindgren

I like the look of that. That defense has played well, and I know scratching Bozak may not happen but I don't think he's contributing much this season. I'd rather go with the younger, bigger players to create a heavy and exciting 4th line. Kostin and Brown intrigue me together.
 

execwrite1

Registered User
Mar 30, 2018
1,523
1,472
No way they keep three goalies. Agree that everyone except Brown goes back to Springfield. The rest have hit their NHL expiration dates. Time to say goodbye to Neal.
 

Linkens Mastery

Conductor of the TankTown Express
Jan 15, 2014
20,282
17,924
Hyrule
Kostin recalled & activated, Peca & Toro sent down. Buchnevich, Tarasenko, and Barbashev leading the team in points.
 

Zezel’s Pretzels

Registered User
May 25, 2019
709
1,088
So our team is now off for a week. After getting some rest, just about everyone should be back around the time of our next game. Kostin (2 assists in 3 Springfield games on his conditioning stint) can come back, Sundqvist will be finishing up Covid protocol, and Perron, Thomas and Kyrou were close so they will surely be back. Walman and Husso too. The only ones I'm not sure about are Schenn and Neal but I don't think their injuries will be much longer either.

So, let's start some roster discussion. What do we look like when fully healthy? Unfortunately some of the Springfield guys, despite playing well, will have to go down. My thoughts:

- Peca is the easiest one to send down as he provides very little.
- Neal doesn't have a place on this team anymore, too old and slow. We have better options. He may stay on LTIR, but if he's healthy, then waive him.
- Waive Walman too as he doesn't provide anything, and keep Perunovich up since he has nothing to prove in the AHL.
- I would run 3 goalies for a bit because we can't really afford to lose Lindgren at the moment. Let's see if/when he cools off and protect ourselves in net in case of another injury.
- Joshua, Walker and Toropchenko were good but I think they will go back down, as I'm just not quite sure they are there yet as far as being consistent contributors. It's just gonna be a numbers game at this point. They are solid bottom 6 players and one of them (either Joshua or Walker) may stick if we move a goalie.
- Brown sticks, the Blues won't want to lose him on waivers. The other 3, I believe, won't require them.

My lines:

Saad - ROR - Perron
Buchnevich - Barbashev - Tarasenko
Schenn - Thomas - Kyrou
Kostin - Brown - Sundqvist
Bozak

Mikkola-Parayko
Krug-Faulk
Scandella-Bortuzzo
Perunovich

Binnington
Husso
Lindgren

I like the look of that. That defense has played well, and I know scratching Bozak may not happen but I don't think he's contributing much this season. I'd rather go with the younger, bigger players to create a heavy and exciting 4th line. Kostin and Brown intrigue me together.
Great post; I agree with pretty much everything. With that being our 3rd line, hot damn, that's awesome.
 
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Brian39

Registered User
Apr 24, 2014
7,580
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It's absurd that you're trying to paint me as a revisionist when you don't acknowledge that I'm correct about Allen getting the majority of the starts even though he played like shit. Elliott was hurt and that's the entire reason we signed Broduer, no shit Elliot who was the #1 would take his net back when he returned. Allen however was a shit show and there was no reason for hitch to keep trotting him out there game after game but what can you expect from a coach who's best buddy GM signs a goalie to a 4x4 without having proven a single f***ing thing to anyone.
The Blues signed Marty on 12/2/14. On that date, Jake Allen had a .918 on the season and his most recent game was a win where he stopped 36 of 38. Allen got the first start of the Allen/Marty era on 12/3, which is what every coach in the history of the NHL would have done (1st game of a B2B a day after Marty joined the organization). He allowed 4 goals on 33 shots to bring his single-season SV% down to .914. Guess who got the next start? Marty. He allowed 4 goals on 24 shots. I assume that this isn't the game where you felt Marty proved that he should get the majority of starts.

So after they split the first 2 games of their timeshare 1-1, Allen get the next start. He played like shit, allowing 3 goals in the 1st and getting yanked. Marty held tough to earn the team a comeback win. And wouldn't you know it, he was then rewarded with the next start (another game in which he played very well and got the team a win). I assume that this is where you believe Hitch and/or Army were stupid and started shitting all over Marty).

After splitting the first 4 starts 2-2, the team went back to Allen for the next 3 games. At the time the decision is made to start Allen for game 5 of the Marty era, he has a .908 on the season, is 8-3-1 on the year and is a rookie who the team hopes will develop into a starter. You can make a case for starting Marty in this game, but it is flatly incorrect to pretend that Allen was a shit show at this point and there was no basis for starting him. Marty had a .904 on the season and was 42. In the following 3 games, Allen allows 3 goals, 2 goals and 2 goals and the team goes 3-0-0. Pretty far from being a shit show and he very much rewarded Hitch's decision to go with him.

So now we're 7 games into the Marty era and starts are 5-2 in favor of Allen. Marty gets the next start and gets hammered for 6 goals on 37 shots to cough up a 3-0 lead and lose 6-4. Allen's season SV% is still .908 and he has a slightly better SV% while Marty is here (.884 vs .882). I'd love to hear the argument explaining how Marty had established himself as the clear option to start the next game.

So the team goes back to Allen, who takes an OT loss where he allows 3 on 30 shots. Unremarkably, the team goes back to him in the next game. He gets blown up for 5 goals on 31 shots in 2 periods and Marty stops 10 of 10 in relief. Then we have Christmas break and the team starts Allen for our first game back. This is the first time that I think there is a good case to be made that Marty should have gotten the next start. I don't think it is a no brainer, but it is what I would have done. Allen allows 4 goals on 24 shots and this is the last game he plays for awhile. Elliott plays the next game, followed by another start for Marty. Elliott then gets the next 3 starts while we carry 3 goalies, he gets yanked in the 1st period of his 3rd straight start and Allen earns a win in relief. Marty then takes a leave of absence from the team.

Marty played really well when he came in to relieve Allen. But he was ridiculously inconsistent in his starts (.833, .941, .838, 1.00, and .879). He allowed 4+ goals in 3 of his 5 starts. He absolutely didn't outplay Allen in his time here and he dropped the ball when it was handed to him. So yes, a claim that Allen was a shit show but kept getting trotted out in favor of a better option is revisionist history. They split starts 8-5 and Marty blew up in 60% of his starts. Allen blew up in 50% of his starts. Marty had put up .901 SV%s in each of his prior 2 seasons and carried an .899 with the Blues. For all of Jake Allen's flaws, he's never had a SV% that low over his professional career.

Your claims that Marty outplayed Allen "but the team constantly shit the bed in front of him" is wrong. Suggesting that Marty was screwed out of a chance to get to 700 wins is wrong. He allowed 4+ goals in each of his losses. He had a quality start rate of .400 that year and he was years removed from being an average NHL goalie. He didn't outplay Allen by any demonstrable margin and even if he had gotten every start while he was here he wouldn't have reached 700 wins. It is wild revisionist history to suggest anything otherwise.
 

Reality Czech

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
5,833
9,429
So our team is now off for a week. After getting some rest, just about everyone should be back around the time of our next game. Kostin (2 assists in 3 Springfield games on his conditioning stint) can come back, Sundqvist will be finishing up Covid protocol, and Perron, Thomas and Kyrou were close so they will surely be back. Walman and Husso too. The only ones I'm not sure about are Schenn and Neal but I don't think their injuries will be much longer either.

So, let's start some roster discussion. What do we look like when fully healthy? Unfortunately some of the Springfield guys, despite playing well, will have to go down. My thoughts:

- Peca is the easiest one to send down as he provides very little.
- Neal doesn't have a place on this team anymore, too old and slow. We have better options. He may stay on LTIR, but if he's healthy, then waive him.
- Waive Walman too as he doesn't provide anything, and keep Perunovich up since he has nothing to prove in the AHL.
- I would run 3 goalies for a bit because we can't really afford to lose Lindgren at the moment. Let's see if/when he cools off and protect ourselves in net in case of another injury.
- Joshua, Walker and Toropchenko were good but I think they will go back down, as I'm just not quite sure they are there yet as far as being consistent contributors. It's just gonna be a numbers game at this point. They are solid bottom 6 players and one of them (either Joshua or Walker) may stick if we move a goalie.
- Brown sticks, the Blues won't want to lose him on waivers. The other 3, I believe, won't require them.

My lines:

Saad - ROR - Perron
Buchnevich - Barbashev - Tarasenko
Schenn - Thomas - Kyrou
Kostin - Brown - Sundqvist
Bozak

Mikkola-Parayko
Krug-Faulk
Scandella-Bortuzzo
Perunovich

Binnington
Husso
Lindgren

I like the look of that. That defense has played well, and I know scratching Bozak may not happen but I don't think he's contributing much this season. I'd rather go with the younger, bigger players to create a heavy and exciting 4th line. Kostin and Brown intrigue me together.

I agree with the vast majority of what you've said, but just a few thoughts of my own...

I can't see Bozak sitting out many games, but he doesn't need to play every game. Even if his offense isn't happening this year, he's still pretty important on the PK and playing a steady game that the youngsters can't provide consistently. I wouldn't expect Brown or Kostin to play every game if everyone is healthy, but they can rotate in with Bozak.

While I don't think Perunovich has much to prove offensively in the AHL, I'm not sure he has nothing to prove at all after only 12 games. He's an NHL defenseman already in terms of offence, but if he wants to have a significant role going forward his defense and positioning need to be much, much better. Rather than dumping Walman now, I would like to see Peru go down for a little while and take on some heavy minutes on D and focus on everything else but offense for a couple of weeks. I think that would make more sense than him playing the occasional 10 mins in the NHL right now.

I can see them holding onto Lindgren as long as they have roster spots they don't need, but doubt we'd keep 3 goalies for that long. Either he's gonna come back to Earth in coming weeks and be sent back down to the A, or if he continues his Vezina-esque run then I could see Army flip him for a mid-round pick to a team desperate for goalie help.

Lastly, I know we may not have a spot for him but what more does Nathan Walker have to do to stay on the team? For all the talk of Brown and Lindgren, the Aussie might have impressed me the most of anyone in recent weeks.
 

BlueMed

Registered User
Jul 18, 2019
2,914
3,496
So our team is now off for a week. After getting some rest, just about everyone should be back around the time of our next game. Kostin (2 assists in 3 Springfield games on his conditioning stint) can come back, Sundqvist will be finishing up Covid protocol, and Perron, Thomas and Kyrou were close so they will surely be back. Walman and Husso too. The only ones I'm not sure about are Schenn and Neal but I don't think their injuries will be much longer either.

So, let's start some roster discussion. What do we look like when fully healthy? Unfortunately some of the Springfield guys, despite playing well, will have to go down. My thoughts:

- Peca is the easiest one to send down as he provides very little.
- Neal doesn't have a place on this team anymore, too old and slow. We have better options. He may stay on LTIR, but if he's healthy, then waive him.
- Waive Walman too as he doesn't provide anything, and keep Perunovich up since he has nothing to prove in the AHL.
- I would run 3 goalies for a bit because we can't really afford to lose Lindgren at the moment. Let's see if/when he cools off and protect ourselves in net in case of another injury.
- Joshua, Walker and Toropchenko were good but I think they will go back down, as I'm just not quite sure they are there yet as far as being consistent contributors. It's just gonna be a numbers game at this point. They are solid bottom 6 players and one of them (either Joshua or Walker) may stick if we move a goalie.
- Brown sticks, the Blues won't want to lose him on waivers. The other 3, I believe, won't require them.

My lines:

Saad - ROR - Perron
Buchnevich - Barbashev - Tarasenko
Schenn - Thomas - Kyrou
Kostin - Brown - Sundqvist
Bozak

Mikkola-Parayko
Krug-Faulk
Scandella-Bortuzzo
Perunovich

Binnington
Husso
Lindgren

I like the look of that. That defense has played well, and I know scratching Bozak may not happen but I don't think he's contributing much this season. I'd rather go with the younger, bigger players to create a heavy and exciting 4th line. Kostin and Brown intrigue me together.

Nice post. I would probably switch Kyrou and Saad because I think spreading out the speed of Kyrou and Thomas tends to help the team play better overall, but I agree with the D pairings. Mikkola has really improved this year and looks much more comfortable. He's basically JBo's replacement, and I can look at that D group with Scandella and Bortuzzo on that 3rd pairing with a lot more confidence.
 

Brian39

Registered User
Apr 24, 2014
7,580
14,247
So our team is now off for a week. After getting some rest, just about everyone should be back around the time of our next game. Kostin (2 assists in 3 Springfield games on his conditioning stint) can come back, Sundqvist will be finishing up Covid protocol, and Perron, Thomas and Kyrou were close so they will surely be back. Walman and Husso too. The only ones I'm not sure about are Schenn and Neal but I don't think their injuries will be much longer either.

So, let's start some roster discussion. What do we look like when fully healthy? Unfortunately some of the Springfield guys, despite playing well, will have to go down. My thoughts:

- Peca is the easiest one to send down as he provides very little.
- Neal doesn't have a place on this team anymore, too old and slow. We have better options. He may stay on LTIR, but if he's healthy, then waive him.
- Waive Walman too as he doesn't provide anything, and keep Perunovich up since he has nothing to prove in the AHL.
- I would run 3 goalies for a bit because we can't really afford to lose Lindgren at the moment. Let's see if/when he cools off and protect ourselves in net in case of another injury.
- Joshua, Walker and Toropchenko were good but I think they will go back down, as I'm just not quite sure they are there yet as far as being consistent contributors. It's just gonna be a numbers game at this point. They are solid bottom 6 players and one of them (either Joshua or Walker) may stick if we move a goalie.
- Brown sticks, the Blues won't want to lose him on waivers. The other 3, I believe, won't require them.

My lines:

Saad - ROR - Perron
Buchnevich - Barbashev - Tarasenko
Schenn - Thomas - Kyrou
Kostin - Brown - Sundqvist
Bozak

Mikkola-Parayko
Krug-Faulk
Scandella-Bortuzzo
Perunovich

Binnington
Husso
Lindgren

I like the look of that. That defense has played well, and I know scratching Bozak may not happen but I don't think he's contributing much this season. I'd rather go with the younger, bigger players to create a heavy and exciting 4th line. Kostin and Brown intrigue me together.
Awesome post.

I know this is a "when everyone is fully healthy" discussion, but I don't think Husso is remotely close to coming back. There has been zero update since he was placed on IR, we haven't been told anything about the injury and a non-contact injury on a lateral movement is almost always terrible news for a goalie. I think we are looking at 2 more weeks at an absolute minimum and then after that we can send him to the AHL w/o waivers on a multi-game conditioning stint. I will be very surprised if we don't get at least 8 more games before we have to start thinking about rostering 3 goalies or choosing between Lindgren/Husso.

For now, I'm very comfortable making these projections based on 21 skaters and 2 goalies. I have the same 20 guys you have and then I would keep Neal as my 21st skater. Have Joshua and Walker playing games in the AHL while Neal sits in the press box as the 14th forward. If Lindgren is still looking like an NHL goalie by the time Husso is ready to return (and no one else is hurt by then lol) then Neal is the waivers candidate.

I'm not wild about regularly scratching Bozak. He is doing a decent amount of heavy lifting defensively and is one of our go-to penalty killers. I don't think Kostin has outplayed him so far this year, so for me it is Bozak's job to lose at the moment. Either way, it is a good problem to have. There is a hell of a lot of talent in that forward group. It is sad to see games cancelled and not having a Blues game to watch this week is a bummer. But I like that we now get some time to heal up and rest. The tank was starting to look empty, the AHLers were coming back down to Earth and we still have a lot of injuries. I'm excited to see how we look coming out of the break.
 

BlueDream

Registered User
Aug 30, 2011
26,200
15,089
Awesome post.

I know this is a "when everyone is fully healthy" discussion, but I don't think Husso is remotely close to coming back. There has been zero update since he was placed on IR, we haven't been told anything about the injury and a non-contact injury on a lateral movement is almost always terrible news for a goalie. I think we are looking at 2 more weeks at an absolute minimum and then after that we can send him to the AHL w/o waivers on a multi-game conditioning stint. I will be very surprised if we don't get at least 8 more games before we have to start thinking about rostering 3 goalies or choosing between Lindgren/Husso.

For now, I'm very comfortable making these projections based on 21 skaters and 2 goalies. I have the same 20 guys you have and then I would keep Neal as my 21st skater. Have Joshua and Walker playing games in the AHL while Neal sits in the press box as the 14th forward. If Lindgren is still looking like an NHL goalie by the time Husso is ready to return (and no one else is hurt by then lol) then Neal is the waivers candidate.

I'm not wild about regularly scratching Bozak. He is doing a decent amount of heavy lifting defensively and is one of our go-to penalty killers. I don't think Kostin has outplayed him so far this year, so for me it is Bozak's job to lose at the moment. Either way, it is a good problem to have. There is a hell of a lot of talent in that forward group. It is sad to see games cancelled and not having a Blues game to watch this week is a bummer. But I like that we now get some time to heal up and rest. The tank was starting to look empty, the AHLers were coming back down to Earth and we still have a lot of injuries. I'm excited to see how we look coming out of the break.
Well said. I think Bozak will be in there a lot, just maybe not every game. Wouldn’t mind him rotating some with Kostin and Brown. Bozak’s faceoff percentage has dipped when he’s usually really good at them, and I personally haven’t noticed him providing much offense or making a ton of great defensive plays either, like he would in the past. That’s just my opinion though but he’s definitely still a good guy to have around.

Good point about Husso. JR has mentioned that he has been “skating” at the last couple practices. No further details so I don’t know what that means for a goalie, but I’d assume he’s facing shots and doing everything he normally would be.

That said, a conditioning stint for him is a good idea to make sure he doesn’t re-aggravate the injury.
 

Brian39

Registered User
Apr 24, 2014
7,580
14,247
31 games isn't the halfway point, but now that we have a week off it feels like an appropriate time to make the "what have we learned so far" posts. I don't have time to deep dive on the entire team right now, so I'm just going to focus on the forwards for now. I had a ton of optimism about the forward group coming into the year and was arguing that this was a top 5-10 forward group in the league. My expectations have incredibly been exceeded.

Coming in to the season, I felt that we had 8 guys who were clearly top 9 players and I thought that the following breakdown was a fair prediction of the floor that we could reasonably expect from each of them:

Above-average top 6 players: ROR, Perron, Buch
Other top 6 players: Schenn
Middle 6 players: Thomas, Kyrou, Saad, Tarasenko

We had major competition for the final spot in the top 9 and very good bottom 6 depth with Barby, Sunny, Bozak, Kostin, Neal, Neighbours, Mac and Brown. I think it is a reasonable statement that our offense could be very good with these guys being no better than bottom 6 guys who could occasionally be adequate passengers to a top 6 line.

Fast forward to today and we have 4+ guys who have wildly outplayed these floors and are either hitting or exceeding what we thought was best case scenario.

Barby: He isn't the driver of his line, but he has looked like the guy I thought he'd become when we drafted him. He's 3rd on the team in scoring and leads the team in hits. He's on pace for 66 points (with 45 of them coming at even strength). I don't think that he is going to hit those numbers, but I'm sold that he has finally made the jump to being a legitimate middle 6 guy (who can be an adequate passenger on a top 6 line).

Thomas: His 20 assists are tied for 20th in the NHL and he's missed 7 games. He's played at a 75 point pace and the underlying numbers are decent. Health is the issue, but his on-ice play was that of a legitimate #2 center.

Kyrou: He's playing at a 76 point pace and has been a genuine game breaker. He's the fastest guy on the ice way more games than not. I think Berube is handling him perfectly. He hit a wall last season and his biggest asset is his speed. I'd rather see 16 minutes of him motoring at 100% than 19 minutes where he conserves. You can't play 19 minutes in this league without some energy conservation and I think his current usage sets him up for in-game success while minimizing the chance that he hits a wall.

Tarasenko: He is the teams leading goal scorer and he's tied for the point lead (Buch has 2 fewer games played though). His release isn't quite what it used to be, but everything else is back. If he plays 80+ games this year, I think he hits 70 points for the first time since 2016/17. I don't think he ever hits 40 goals again, but he looks to be a 25-30 goal, 65-75 point player who has a chance of hitting 35 goals. We have 51 games left and he needs 13 more goals and 23 more assists to hit the low end of those numbers. He has 12 goals and 17 assists through 31 games. He's going to be a 25 goal, 65 point guy this year even with pretty substantial regression. The defense isn't there for me to say he's a no doubt top liner, but he's a no doubt top 6 guy again.

Then we have a couple guys who are as-advertised or mildly exceeding expectations.

Buch: This is who I thought we were getting. I was incredibly high on him and he has been exactly what I expected. But I think he is exceeding a lot of expectations from other people. He is tied for the team lead in points, he kills penalties, he has great underlying metrics and his +14 leads the team. He wasn't a product of Zibanejad. He's a stud and this trade was robbery. He drives the Russian line and looks good with whoever he plays with. He's the best winger on a team full of good wingers. $5.8M for 3 more years after this one. Getting him for Blais and a 2nd then locking him in for 4 years at $5.8M was a franchise altering move.

Saad: As advertised. He scores goals with a combination of a good shot and a willingness to drive the net. He's not going to drive any given line, but he's going to get you 20+ goals while being deployed in a defensive role. I'm very comfortable with him as a middle 6 guy.

Perron: He's been streaky and struggled for a stretch. But that's not uncommon for guys who rely on their shot and he's still got 18 points in 20 games. That's a 73 point pace. Does it look like he massively benefits from ROR? Yup. But I don't think ROR can turn just anyone into a 73 point guy. The concussion is worrisome, but he's been a top line player. He's producing almost on par with Tarasenko and has substantially better underlying metrics and less favorable usage.

Not meeting expectations:

ROR: I have a hard time putting him here because he is still playing like a top 6 center and my eye test tells me that his energy level wasn't at 100% as a result of COVID. He's got 9 points in his last 11 games and I think his defensive game is starting to round back into form. I don't have long-term concerns with him. He's back to handling the minutes he used to handle and looks more like his old self. I have to put him in this category since he is only on pace for 54 points. But I'm not worried about him. He's got one of the best work ethics in the NHL and he is still in his very early 30s (turns 31 in February). Permanent COVID damage is the only thing that I was worried about and his recent play and minutes tell me that the chance of this is negligible.

Schenn: He hasn't been good enough. To his credit, he does a lot of things well that prevent him from being a liability. He's physical, he's willing to fight, and he is overall decent off the puck. I understand why he is well liked and respected because you can always tell that he cares a ton and is willing to do the hard/painful things to make an impact when he can't find the net. But we need him to find the net more. He makes too much to be a sub-50 point guy. He's on pace for 17 goals and 43 points. It's not good enough and he may have permanently lost a job as a center on this team.

All in all, the forward group has been great. 31 games in, and I'm comfortable adjusting my floors for the remaining 51 games + playoffs as follows:

Above average top 6 players: ROR, Perron, Buch
Other top 6 players: Thomas, Kyrou, Tarasenko
Middle 6 players: Schenn, Saad, Barby

That's awesome and factors in some expected regression from a few guys. Not many teams can say that their forward group is better than expected when the #1 and #2 centers on opening night are both performing below expectations. That's a "put you season on life support" blow to most teams, but we've watched the expected middle 6 portion of the lineup fully cover for them. Even better, I've made it this far without mentioning Oskar Sundqvist. Once again, we have the luxury of making him the best 4th liner in the league when we're healthy. Logan Brown is looking like an actual NHL player, Bozak is still an NHL player and we've got a number of other AHL guys who just demonstrated that they can play a short-term bottom 6 role just fine in the NHL.

This team is 7th in the NHL in goals per game and we are down to just 2 forwards who have played every game. Every forward but 3 has missed at least 4 games. I hedged earlier in the year by calling this forward group top 5-10, but I'm more confident after watching them for 31 games. This is a top 5 forward group.
 
Last edited:

LGB

Registered User
Feb 4, 2019
2,252
2,352
The Russian line hasn't been as good as people think. I think goals scored on the PP are skewing people's perception of their 5v5 success.

5v5
TOICF%GF/GAxGF%
89-49-9171:2844.2
4/3​
48.45
89-18-9178:0457.9
6/2​
61.02
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

Xerloris

reckless optimism
Jun 9, 2015
7,644
8,257
St.Louis
31 games isn't the halfway point, but now that we have a week off it feels like an appropriate time to make the "what have we learned so far" posts. I don't have time to deep dive on the entire team right now, so I'm just going to focus on the forwards for now. I had a ton of optimism about the forward group coming into the year and was arguing that this was a top 5-10 forward group in the league. My expectations have incredibly been exceeded.

Coming in to the season, I felt that we had 8 guys who were clearly top 9 players and I thought that the following breakdown was a fair prediction of the floor that we could reasonably expect from each of them:

Above-average top 6 players: ROR, Perron, Buch
Other top 6 players: Schenn
Middle 6 players: Thomas, Kyrou, Saad, Tarasenko

We had major competition for the final spot in the top 9 and very good bottom 6 depth with Barby, Sunny, Bozak, Kostin, Neal, Neighbours, Mac and Brown. I think it is a reasonable statement that our offense could be very good with these guys being no better than bottom 6 guys who could occasionally be adequate passengers to a top 6 line.

Fast forward to today and we have 4+ guys who have wildly outplayed these floors and are either hitting or exceeding what we thought was best case scenario.

Barby: He isn't the driver of his line, but he has looked like the guy I thought he'd become when we drafted him. He's 3rd on the team in scoring and leads the team in hits. He's on pace for 66 points (with 45 of them coming at even strength). I don't think that he is going to hit those numbers, but I'm sold that he has finally made the jump to being a legitimate middle 6 guy (who can be an adequate passenger on a top 6 line).

Thomas: His 20 assists are tied for 20th in the NHL and he's missed 7 games. He's played at a 75 point pace and the underlying numbers are decent. Health is the issue, but his on-ice play was that of a legitimate #2 center.

Kyrou: He's playing at a 76 point pace and has been a genuine game breaker. He's the fastest guy on the ice way more games than not. I think Berube is handling him perfectly. He hit a wall last season and his biggest asset is his speed. I'd rather see 16 minutes of him motoring at 100% than 19 minutes where he conserves. You can't play 19 minutes in this league without some energy conservation and I think his current usage sets him up for in-game success while minimizing the chance that he hits a wall.

Tarasenko: He is the teams leading goal scorer and he's tied for the point lead (Buch has 2 fewer games played though). His release isn't quite what it used to be, but everything else is back. If he plays 80+ games this year, I think he hits 70 points for the first time since 2016/17. I don't think he ever hits 40 goals again, but he looks to be a 25-30 goal, 65-75 point player who has a chance of hitting 35 goals. We have 51 games left and he needs 13 more goals and 23 more assists to hit the low end of those numbers. He has 12 goals and 17 assists through 31 games. He's going to be a 25 goal, 65 point guy this year even with pretty substantial regression. The defense isn't there for me to say he's a no doubt top liner, but he's a no doubt top 6 guy again.

Then we have a couple guys who are as-advertised or mildly exceeding expectations.

Buch: This is who I thought we were getting. I was incredibly high on him and he has been exactly what I expected. But I think he is exceeding a lot of expectations from other people. He is tied for the team lead in points, he kills penalties, he has great underlying metrics and his +14 leads the team. He wasn't a product of Zibanejad. He's a stud and this trade was robbery. He drives the Russian line and looks good with whoever he plays with. He's the best winger on a team full of good wingers. $5.8M for 3 more years after this one. Getting him for Blais and a 2nd then locking him in for 4 years at $5.8M was a franchise altering move.

Saad: As advertised. He scores goals with a combination of a good shot and a willingness to drive the net. He's not going to drive any given line, but he's going to get you 20+ goals while being deployed in a defensive role. I'm very comfortable with him as a middle 6 guy.

Perron: He's been streaky and struggled for a stretch. But that's not uncommon for guys who rely on their shot and he's still got 18 points in 20 games. That's a 73 point pace. Does it look like he massively benefits from ROR? Yup. But I don't think ROR can turn just anyone into a 73 point guy. The concussion is worrisome, but he's been a top line player. He's producing almost on par with Tarasenko and has substantially better underlying metrics and less favorable usage.

Not meeting expectations:

ROR: I have a hard time putting him here because he is still playing like a top 6 center and my eye test tells me that his energy level wasn't at 100% as a result of COVID. He's got 9 points in his last 11 games and I think his defensive game is starting to round back into form. I don't have long-term concerns with him. He's back to handling the minutes he used to handle and looks more like his old self. I have to put him in this category since he is only on pace for 54 points. But I'm not worried about him. He's got one of the best work ethics in the NHL and he is still in his very early 30s (turns 31 in February). Permanent COVID damage is the only thing that I was worried about and his recent play and minutes tell me that the chance of this is negligible.

Schenn: He hasn't been good enough. To his credit, he does a lot of things well that prevent him from being a liability. He's physical, he's willing to fight, and he is overall decent off the puck. I understand why he is well liked and respected because you can always tell that he cares a ton and is willing to do the hard/painful things to make an impact when he can't find the net. But we need him to find the net more. He makes too much to be a sub-50 point guy. He's on pace for 17 goals and 43 points. It's not good enough and he may have permanently lost a job as a center on this team.

All in all, the forward group has been great. 31 games in, and I'm comfortable adjusting my floors for the remaining 51 games + playoffs as follows:

Above average top 6 players: ROR, Perron, Buch
Other top 6 players: Thomas, Kyrou, Tarasenko
Middle 6 players: Schenn, Saad, Barby

That's awesome and factors in some expected regression from a few guys. Not many teams can say that their forward group is better than expected when the #1 and #2 centers on opening night are both performing below expectations. That's a "put you season on life support" blow to most teams, but we've watched the expected middle 6 portion of the lineup fully cover for them. Even better, I've made it this far without mentioning Oskar Sundqvist. Once again, we have the luxury of making him the best 4th liner in the league when we're healthy. Logan Brown is looking like an actual NHL player, Bozak is still an NHL player and we've got a number of other AHL guys who just demonstrated that they can play a short-term bottom 6 role just fine in the NHL.

This team is 7th in the NHL in goals per game and we are down to just 2 forwards who have played every game. Every forward but 3 has missed at least 4 games. I hedged earlier in the year by calling this forward group top 5-10, but I'm more confident after watching them for 31 games. This is a top 5 forward group.

Pretty good write up and it's surprising to me how many players I forgot we had. Thomas and Kyrou being two of them.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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The Russian line hasn't been as good as people think. I think goals scored on the PP are skewing people's perception of their 5v5 success.

5v5
TOICF%GF/GAxGF%
89-49-9171:2844.2
4/3​
48.45
89-18-9178:0457.9
6/2​
61.02
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
I get what you're saying, but I think that part of the perception is from looking at what they've done vs what you would have expected that line to do. The Russian line has been our most-used line in the month of December. Those three players are 2nd, 3rd and 4th in even strength time on ice this month and 3 months ago there were people wondering if Barby had a spot in the opening night lineup. He is just 7 minutes shy of ROR's even strength ice time in the same number of games played this month. It's insanely surprising to have a top line outscoring their opponent for 3 weeks with Ivan Barbashev at center.

It's also worth noting that they have scored some even strength goals when it isn't all 3 on the ice together. The 3 of them have combined for 7 even strength goals in the last 9 games, but not all of them have come when all 3 are on the ice together. They have 71 minutes where all 3 are out there, but have each topped 130 even strength minutes in December. There are a lot of situations where only 2 of them are out there at any given time. Berube is juggling lines like crazy to keep this team playing well.

The players comprising the Russian line have been excellent since Berube started putting them out as a line and it isn't just that they've scored on the PP. They have 7, 7, and 5 even strength points in the last 9 games, combining for 7 even strength goals. That's very good production at a time when we are icing a forward group with 4 or more AHLers.
 
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LGB

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Feb 4, 2019
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I get what you're saying, but I think that part of the perception is from looking at what they've done vs what you would have expected that line to do. The Russian line has been our most-used line in the month of December. Those three players are 2nd, 3rd and 4th in even strength time on ice this month and 3 months ago there were people wondering if Barby had a spot in the opening night lineup. He is just 7 minutes shy of ROR's even strength ice time in the same number of games played this month. It's insanely surprising to have a top line outscoring their opponent for 3 weeks with Ivan Barbashev at center.

It's also worth noting that they have scored some even strength goals when it isn't all 3 on the ice together. The 3 of them have combined for 7 even strength goals in the last 9 games, but not all of them have come when all 3 are on the ice together. They have 71 minutes where all 3 are out there, but have each topped 130 even strength minutes in December. There are a lot of situations where only 2 of them are out there at any given time. Berube is juggling lines like crazy to keep this team playing well.

The players comprising the Russian line have been excellent since Berube started putting them out as a line and it isn't just that they've scored on the PP. They have 7, 7, and 5 even strength points in the last 9 games, combining for 7 even strength goals. That's very good production at a time when we are icing a forward group with 4 or more AHLers.
Wasn't trying to dump on them. Probably should have framed it more as we forgot how good they were with Thomas centering. Barbashev has done a nice job stepping up, but Thomas is still a much better player.
 
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Brian39

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Wasn't trying to dump on them. Probably should have framed it more as we forgot how good they were with Thomas centering. Barbashev has done a nice job stepping up, but Thomas is still a much better player.
Agreed.

With that said, I'm not sure that I'm eager to rush Thomas back between 89 and 91. Berube loves his pairs and I kind of want to see him pair up ROR/Perron, Thomas/Kyrou, and Buch/Tarasenko. That gives you 3 lines that each have 2 clear top 6 players on them and I think Schenn, Saad and Barby can be effectively mixed and matched into those pairs as situations dictate. If you find the right chemistry, you can border on having three lines that are borderline (or actual) top line quality.

Edit: and right after posting I see the practice lines. Swap a healthy Schenn in for Brown and that is exactly what I was talking about.
 
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LGB

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Agreed.

With that said, I'm not sure that I'm eager to rush Thomas back between 89 and 91. Berube loves his pairs and I kind of want to see him pair up ROR/Perron, Thomas/Kyrou, and Buch/Tarasenko. That gives you 3 lines that each have 2 clear top 6 players on them and I think Schenn, Saad and Barby can be effectively mixed and matched into those pairs as situations dictate. If you find the right chemistry, you can border on having three lines that are borderline (or actual) top line quality.

Edit: and right after posting I see the practice lines. Swap a healthy Schenn in for Brown and that is exactly what I was talking about.
Generally that's a good philosophy, but (albeit over a small sample) the 89-18-91 line has been truly elite. We made a similar mistake last year too. 17-10-25 started the season among the best lines in the NHL, then Schwartz missed a couple of weeks with an injury and they never really played together again.
 
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Xerloris

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The Blues signed Marty on 12/2/14. On that date, Jake Allen had a .918 on the season and his most recent game was a win where he stopped 36 of 38. Allen got the first start of the Allen/Marty era on 12/3, which is what every coach in the history of the NHL would have done (1st game of a B2B a day after Marty joined the organization). He allowed 4 goals on 33 shots to bring his single-season SV% down to .914. Guess who got the next start? Marty. He allowed 4 goals on 24 shots. I assume that this isn't the game where you felt Marty proved that he should get the majority of starts.

So after they split the first 2 games of their timeshare 1-1, Allen get the next start. He played like shit, allowing 3 goals in the 1st and getting yanked. Marty held tough to earn the team a comeback win. And wouldn't you know it, he was then rewarded with the next start (another game in which he played very well and got the team a win). I assume that this is where you believe Hitch and/or Army were stupid and started shitting all over Marty).

After splitting the first 4 starts 2-2, the team went back to Allen for the next 3 games. At the time the decision is made to start Allen for game 5 of the Marty era, he has a .908 on the season, is 8-3-1 on the year and is a rookie who the team hopes will develop into a starter. You can make a case for starting Marty in this game, but it is flatly incorrect to pretend that Allen was a shit show at this point and there was no basis for starting him. Marty had a .904 on the season and was 42. In the following 3 games, Allen allows 3 goals, 2 goals and 2 goals and the team goes 3-0-0. Pretty far from being a shit show and he very much rewarded Hitch's decision to go with him.

So now we're 7 games into the Marty era and starts are 5-2 in favor of Allen. Marty gets the next start and gets hammered for 6 goals on 37 shots to cough up a 3-0 lead and lose 6-4. Allen's season SV% is still .908 and he has a slightly better SV% while Marty is here (.884 vs .882). I'd love to hear the argument explaining how Marty had established himself as the clear option to start the next game.

So the team goes back to Allen, who takes an OT loss where he allows 3 on 30 shots. Unremarkably, the team goes back to him in the next game. He gets blown up for 5 goals on 31 shots in 2 periods and Marty stops 10 of 10 in relief. Then we have Christmas break and the team starts Allen for our first game back. This is the first time that I think there is a good case to be made that Marty should have gotten the next start. I don't think it is a no brainer, but it is what I would have done. Allen allows 4 goals on 24 shots and this is the last game he plays for awhile. Elliott plays the next game, followed by another start for Marty. Elliott then gets the next 3 starts while we carry 3 goalies, he gets yanked in the 1st period of his 3rd straight start and Allen earns a win in relief. Marty then takes a leave of absence from the team.

Marty played really well when he came in to relieve Allen. But he was ridiculously inconsistent in his starts (.833, .941, .838, 1.00, and .879). He allowed 4+ goals in 3 of his 5 starts. He absolutely didn't outplay Allen in his time here and he dropped the ball when it was handed to him. So yes, a claim that Allen was a shit show but kept getting trotted out in favor of a better option is revisionist history. They split starts 8-5 and Marty blew up in 60% of his starts. Allen blew up in 50% of his starts. Marty had put up .901 SV%s in each of his prior 2 seasons and carried an .899 with the Blues. For all of Jake Allen's flaws, he's never had a SV% that low over his professional career.

Your claims that Marty outplayed Allen "but the team constantly shit the bed in front of him" is wrong. Suggesting that Marty was screwed out of a chance to get to 700 wins is wrong. He allowed 4+ goals in each of his losses. He had a quality start rate of .400 that year and he was years removed from being an average NHL goalie. He didn't outplay Allen by any demonstrable margin and even if he had gotten every start while he was here he wouldn't have reached 700 wins. It is wild revisionist history to suggest anything otherwise.

In general you're making a good and valid post but what it comes down to is this. You play a goalie with the hot hand atm, like Charlie has right now. You also should not play a goalie who clearly is having some sort of existential crisis of confidence like Allen was during those 10ish games. His season stats had no bearing on his performance during that 10 game stretch so citing the sv% of the year is really meaningless. Broduer at the time was for sure not a world beater but he did have slightly better stats than Allen and the best part was, he was able to mentally handle it when Allen was not. If you have a choice between 2 goalies with sub 900 sv% and you know neither goalie is going to save the game for you, why not choose the one that's a few wins away from a milestone no one else has ever achieved? Hitch choosing to start Allen did nothing to help Allen and was more so because he was being spiteful towards Broduer because Hitch was and more than likely still is a dick. That's obviously my opinion based on nothing.
 

Brian39

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Generally that's a good philosophy, but (albeit over a small sample) the 89-18-91 line has been truly elite. We made a similar mistake last year too. 17-10-25 started the season among the best lines in the NHL, then Schwartz missed a couple of weeks with an injury and they never really played together again.
Over a similarly small sample, Thomas and Kyrou have truly elite underlying numbers as well. Every possession metric is at or above 60% and that's with usage leaning toward the defensive end (47% vs the 70% for 89-18-91). 89-18-91 have outscored opponents 6-2 vs while Thomas-Kyrou are just 1-1. But Thomas-Kyrou are actually generating way more high danger chances (18.3 per 60 vs 10 per 60). The difference is that the shooting percentage is 2.5% vs 11%. That's an extremely low shooting percentage considering the chances they generated and it is almost statistically impossible for that number not to come way up.

Thomas has been great with Buch and with Kyrou. Interestingly, he and Tarasenko have been caved in during their 200 minutes together without Buch. For me, the relevant "pair" question is about putting Thomas with Buch or Thomas with Kyrou. Theoretically, you could load all 3 on to one line, but the Buch/Tarasenko connection is legit and I think breaking that up would be a mistake. Whoever you decide to put Thomas with, you can make the 'what could have been' about the other guy. I'm not wild about the "3rd line" options for Kyrou if we go back to 89-18-91. I also don't love a full time Saad-Schenn-Barby 3rd line if we threw Kyrou with ROR/Perron.

That's my reasoning for going ROR/Perron, Buch/Vova, Thomas/Kyrou instead of Buch/Thomas/Vova. If it doesn't work out, I'd hope that we do go back to 89-18-91 sooner than later.
 
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MissouriMook

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Apparently we got a practice in today, and these were the lines

Saad-O’Reilly-Perron
Buchnevich-Barbashev-Tarasenko
Brown-Thomas-Kyrou
Joshua-Bozak-Kostin

Schenn and Neal didn’t skate, and apparently they let Walker leave early to visit his family.
I like that lineup under the circumstances, and frankly I'd be fine with either Joshua or Walker in that 4LW role, depending on whether we're looking for more grit or more offense out of the 4th line.
 
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LGB

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Over a similarly small sample, Thomas and Kyrou have truly elite underlying numbers as well. Every possession metric is at or above 60% and that's with usage leaning toward the defensive end (47% vs the 70% for 89-18-91). 89-18-91 have outscored opponents 6-2 vs while Thomas-Kyrou are just 1-1. But Thomas-Kyrou are actually generating way more high danger chances (18.3 per 60 vs 10 per 60). The difference is that the shooting percentage is 2.5% vs 11%. That's an extremely low shooting percentage considering the chances they generated and it is almost statistically impossible for that number not to come way up.

Thomas has been great with Buch and with Kyrou. Interestingly, he and Tarasenko have been caved in during their 200 minutes together without Buch. For me, the relevant "pair" question is about putting Thomas with Buch or Thomas with Kyrou. Theoretically, you could load all 3 on to one line, but the Buch/Tarasenko connection is legit and I think breaking that up would be a mistake. Whoever you decide to put Thomas with, you can make the 'what could have been' about the other guy. I'm not wild about the "3rd line" options for Kyrou if we go back to 89-18-91. I also don't love a full time Saad-Schenn-Barby 3rd line if we threw Kyrou with ROR/Perron.

That's my reasoning for going ROR/Perron, Buch/Vova, Thomas/Kyrou instead of Buch/Thomas/Vova. If it doesn't work out, I'd hope that we do go back to 89-18-91 sooner than later.
If we don't get Thomas back with them he and Kyrou definitely wouldn't be a bad consolation. It is hard to say what to do with the third line with Schenn playing poorly.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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Apparently we got a practice in today, and these were the lines

Saad-O’Reilly-Perron
Buchnevich-Barbashev-Tarasenko
Brown-Thomas-Kyrou
Joshua-Bozak-Kostin

Schenn and Neal didn’t skate, and apparently they let Walker leave early to visit his family.
Looks like Brown is holding down Schenn's spot. Unless he plays poorly, I think Barbashev is going to center that Russian line even when the roster is healthy (if the roster gets healthy).

I thought Kostin was sent for a conditioning stint?
 

shpongle falls

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Kostin was sent down and got in a game or two and is back up now. I love to see Thomas and Kyrou on a line but also think that Kyrou and O'Rielly have some chemistry too and it's nice to have some speed on ROR's wing.
 
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