2021 Blues Regular Season multi-purpose thread

[Brian39]

To be clear, the bolded cannot be referring to my post. I clearly say that reach is every bit as important as the other skills which is a far, far cry from the bolded.

What was the Memento reference about then? His tattoos are the foundational, single most important component of his worldview. Every other data point he gets is fully secondary to what is tattooed on his body. I must have misinterpreted what you meant by that, because I'm reading it as a D man's reach being the starting point and basis for analysis of that player.

 

[PocketNines]

What was the Memento reference about then? His tattoos are the foundational, single most important component of his worldview. Every other data point he gets is fully secondary to what is tattooed on his body. I must have misinterpreted what you meant by that, because I'm reading it as a D man's reach being the starting point and basis for analysis of that player.

Probably shouldn’t overread the reference. I’m actually working on a book and top 100 list of doom noir, which I find to be the most satisfying cut of noir. I come here to procrastinate on the writing. Memento is a towering contribution to the genre and is the ultimate self-deception noir.

Leonard has multiple “truths” tattooed on himself that are not in fact true.

 

[Majorityof1]

To the bolded, I was directly responding to a post exclusively about reach being so important that it outweighed everything else.

I disagree that Krug doesn't have any of the skills I mentioned. He is a good (but not great) skater. His positioning and gap control in the neutral zone and around the blue line is generally good. His best defensive tool is forcing dump ins, beating guys to loose pucks and then skating or passing the puck out of trouble. He is well above average at that part of defense and it is frankly the reason he is playable as a D man in the NHL. His positioning and gap control are poor when he's defending a puck carrier 1 on 1 or defending while a team cycles down low against him. He is among the league's best at getting the puck safely out of the zone with control once we gain possession in our zone. I count that as a defensive skill.

Krug should never be in Norris contention, but the pairings rolled out today wouldn't be asking him to be that. Again, I think we still need to add to the blue line, but splitting up Scandella-Parayko to use Krug and Perunovich both as complimentary pieces to non-defense heavy pairings is the best usage of the group we have and can feasibly make a good enough group (if Perunovich is immediately a Dunn+ caliber guy defensively AND the blueline provides enough offense that we are a top 5 scoring team in the league).

When I say zero skills, its a bit of hyperbole to make a point. I agree that Krug is an alright skater. He isn't that fast but he is good laterally and on edges. Given his other deficiencies, it by no means makes up for it. He is also generally good at getting the puck out of the zone. The latter could be considered defensive. I disagree with the rest. I don't think he beats people to pucks often, as again, he is a good skater but not fast. I don't think he defends the blue line particularly well. He may be better than a replacement level player at that, but he is definitely not above average.

What was the Memento reference about then? His tattoos are the foundational, single most important component of his worldview. Every other data point he gets is fully secondary to what is tattooed on his body. I must have misinterpreted what you meant by that, because I'm reading it as a D man's reach being the starting point and basis for analysis of that player.

I'm assuming the Memento comment was in reference to the big twist at the end of the movie...
.

Spoiler

The main character's wife survived the attack that caused his condition but she couldn't cope. She tricked him into killing her by continuously asking for her insulin shots and he couldn't remember that he had given her far too many. The guy he was hunting wasn't her attacker, but a undercover cop who helped him track down his wife's attacker awhile ago. He used the tattoos and messages he leaves himself to intentionally trick himself into going after the cop. He continued to leave messages to fool himsel so so he could stay in this continuous hunt for his wife's killer. That way he doesn't have to deal with fact that he has nothing left, not even revenge.

At least that is my recollection of the movie, as its been awhile. I guess P9 was saying that whatever comment he was referring to was a delusion the poster foisted on himself into thinking was true. I am not a P9 fan, at all, but I thought it was an obscure but somewhat clever reference.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

In 2010 the Hawks won the Cup with Keith (6'1") and Campbell (5'10") playing top 4 minutes. Their biggest D man was the size of our current roster's 3rd tallest D man.

In 2011 the Bruins won the Cup with Ference (5'11") and Seidenberg (6'0") playing top 4 minutes.

In 2012, the Kings won the Cup with Doughty (6'1") and Voynov (6'0") playing top 4 minutes. Their biggest D man was the size of our current roster's 3rd tallest D man.

In 2013 The Hawks won the Cup with Keith (6'1") and Oduya (6'0") playing top 4 minutes. Their biggest D man was the size of our 3rd tallest D man and their bottom pairing was 6'0" and 6'1".

In 2014, the Kings won the Cup with Doughty (6'1") and Voynov (6'0") playing top 4 minutes. Their biggest D man was the size of our 3rd tallest D man.

In 2015 The Hawks won the Cup with Keith (6'1") and Oduya (6'0") playing top 4 minutes. Their biggest D man was the size of our 3rd tallest D man and the 3 guys they rotated in the bottom pair were 5'10", 5'11" and 6'1".

In 2016 the Pens won the Cup with Letang (6'0"), Lovejoy (6'1"), and Daley (5'11") in their top 4. Their biggest guy was 6'4" (our 2nd tallest player) and no one else was above 6'2"

In 2017 the Pens sized up a bit on their blue line, with a top 4 all above 6 foot.

In 2018 the Caps won with Orlov (5'11"), Niskanen (6'1") and Kempny (6'1") rounding out the top 4 after Carlson (6'3"). Their biggest guy was the size of our current roster's 3rd biggest guy.

Our group in 2019 was the biggest group to win it by a country mile. Dunn was our smallest D man at 6'0" and everyone else was 6'2" or taller (with 4 of our 7 regulars being 6'4" or taller).

Tampa continued the trend of big blueliners with a core above 6 feet tall (although not nearly as big as ours).

Here is the list of 6'4" D men who played 200+ minutes on a Cup run in the last dozen years: Hedman, Parayko, Bouwmeester, Edmundson, Bortuzzo, Dumoulin, Chara, and McQuaid. Our team and the 2011 Bruins team are the only group that had more than 1. We currently have 2 such guys with a 3rd who is 6'3". The large half of our blue line has better reaches than 11 of the last 12 Cup winners. You can't point at the small half and say "no one has had success with a small half like that" without acknowledging that no one else (besides our GM) has built a large half of the blue line as big as ours either. If your argument is about reach, you can't ignore that half the blue line has much better reach than the large majority of Cup winners

Our current blue line has an average height of 73.33 inches

The average height of Washington's blue line in 2018 was 73.16 inches

The average height of the Pens blue line in 2016 was 72.83 inches

The average height of the 2015 Hawks blue line was 73 inches. 73.33 inches in 2013 and 73.16 in 2010.

The average height of the 2014 Kings blue line was 73.83 inches. That number was 73.5 in 2012.

The overall reach/length of our blue line is right in line with the majority of Cup winners over the last dozen years. If you are talking about the construction of the whole group, then we don't have a height/reach issue. If your talking about the size/effectiveness of individual players, there are plenty of examples of individuals being very effective under 6'0". Again, Krug and Perunovich have deficiencies in their games that create a high likelihood that we'll need to add a piece from outside the organization. Reach is not it.

I’m talking about the size of the top four. I look at Parayko, Faulk, Krug, Peronovich as too small not to be subsumed under playoff forecheck by quality teams. Despite all those provided examples I don’t see any where there are two guys 5’11” or under in the top four. Perhaps I looked past one.

Krug is also more than small, he is tiny. He has to waterski big guys who are all faster than him. Having two guys under 5’11” and Faulk at 6’ is rough.

Unless they raise the nets to 10' above the ice like a basketball rim, height in itself is fairly irrelevant to defensive ability. It may be a proxy for reach which could have value, or even strength, but it seems a rather imperfect one. Our D may not be good enough, but to focus on whether we are tall enough to win seems a rather odd choice.

 

[PocketNines]

Unless they raise the nets to 10' above the ice like a basketball rim, height in itself is fairly irrelevant to defensive ability. It may be a proxy for reach which could have value, or even strength, but it seems a rather imperfect one. Our D may not be good enough, but to focus on whether we are tall enough to win seems a rather odd choice.

Height is now “a rather odd” dimension of a defenseman to be considering? What is happening here

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Height is now “a rather odd” dimension of a defenseman to be considering? What is happening here

It's not like Chara can bat down pucks that Krug can't reach.

 

[PocketNines]

It's not like Chara can bat down pucks that Krug can't reach.

?

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

?

Why should height matter? Are we worried that Krug can't touch rim? Or are we just using it as proxy for reach or something else?

 

[PocketNines]

Why should height matter? Are we worried that Krug can't touch rim? Or are we just using it as proxy for reach or something else?

“Why do they even list the sizes of players. They’re just dudes” is how I’m hearing this pushback to a very basic idea

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Probably shouldn’t overread the reference. I’m actually working on a book and top 100 list of doom noir, which I find to be the most satisfying cut of noir. I come here to procrastinate on the writing. Memento is a towering contribution to the genre and is the ultimate self-deception noir.

Leonard has multiple “truths” tattooed on himself that are not in fact true.

Uh. I’m really struggling to understand what you were saying about Reach more after this explanation than when I initially read your comment. It’s OK to walk back your comment if you overstated the point. No one is keeping score here. It’s just discussion, even if some posters seem to treat the forum like a formal debate competition.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

When I say zero skills, its a bit of hyperbole to make a point. I agree that Krug is an alright skater. He isn't that fast but he is good laterally and on edges. Given his other deficiencies, it by no means makes up for it. He is also generally good at getting the puck out of the zone. The latter could be considered defensive. I disagree with the rest. I don't think he beats people to pucks often, as again, he is a good skater but not fast. I don't think he defends the blue line particularly well. He may be better than a replacement level player at that, but he is definitely not above average.



I'm assuming the Memento comment was in reference to the big twist at the end of the movie...
.

Spoiler

The main character's wife survived the attack that caused his condition but she couldn't cope. She tricked him into killing her by continuously asking for her insulin shots and he couldn't remember that he had given her far too many. The guy he was hunting wasn't her attacker, but a undercover cop who helped him track down his wife's attacker awhile ago. He used the tattoos and messages he leaves himself to intentionally trick himself into going after the cop. He continued to leave messages to fool himsel so so he could stay in this continuous hunt for his wife's killer. That way he doesn't have to deal with fact that he has nothing left, not even revenge.

At least that is my recollection of the movie, as its been awhile. I guess P9 was saying that whatever comment he was referring to was a delusion the poster foisted on himself into thinking was true. I am not a P9 fan, at all, but I thought it was an obscure but somewhat clever reference.

Are you saying the poster emphasizing reach is the self-deluded poster? That this was P9 being cleverly self-deprecating? Wow, I didn’t get that.

EDIT - just reread the exchange. I think I follow the reference now. It was NOT self-deprecation.LOL. Makes more sense to me now.

This forum rarely fails to provide surprise entertainment value. Sincerely, I applaud the group for the communal fund of knowledge and resultant discussion.

 

[PocketNines]

Uh. I’m really struggling to understand what you were saying about Reach more after this explanation than when I initially read your comment. It’s OK to walk back your comment if you overstated the point. No one is keeping score here. It’s just discussion, even if some posters seem to treat the forum like a formal debate competition.

There is literally nothing to walk back about suggesting that downplaying reach as one of a defenseman’s key traits is willing self deception

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

There is literally nothing to walk back about suggesting that downplaying reach as one of a defenseman’s key traits is willing self deception

What I’m taking from this, main point, is that I didn’t really understand Memento. In fairness, the circumstances when I watched it would have distracted most of the men on this forum.

 

[PocketNines]

What I’m taking from this, main point, is that I didn’t really understand Memento. In fairness, the circumstances when I watched it would have distracted most of the men on this forum.

The film is a masterpiece of noir style and substance and holds up very well. On an elite shortlist since the classic era ended in 1959

 

[BadgersandBlues]

I really appreciate how Brian39 goes into depth on these topics - I have been assuming (Incorrectly clearly) that good teams have generally larger D-men. Pretty crazy how most teams can win just find with guys who are 5' 11" - 6' 1" or so if need be. Doesn't hurt to be bigger, but it's clearly not a requirement for defending well.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

If the Saad-Sundqvist-Barbashev line is the so-called "identity line", then the other fragmented lines could be called, in one simple word, Memento.

 

[NYBlues]

More of a lurker than poster. But a few thoughts after last night's game:

- I think we had success early on because the intensity of games is generally lower the first couple of weeks. Teams seemed to have stepped up defensive pressure which we have struggled to adjust to.
- I think the "identity line" worked last night. I think the physicality and intensity they play with was contagious. That was something that was missing before. Players were trying to make cute plays like they were getting away with early on, and it wasn't working. I think the added intensity helps sharpen players mentally so they can make quick, creative plays effectively.
- I think someone else was saying this, but I think maybe we should accept our identity as an offensive oriented team. Let's adjust our style to the players rather than vice versa. As part of this, I'd love to see our offensive dmen be more aggressive and jump into the play. I think we don't want to risk squashing our player's creativity. I think we want to encourage it, but just with more mental sharpness, and the intelligence to know when to make the safe play. During this latest losing streak I have seen a lot of half-assed, sloppy plays with the puck.
- Thomas and Kyrou are our best forwards now. O'Reilly and Perron should be used more as a 2A or 2B line that matches up against the other team's best players.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I was going to make a post prior to Perunovich playing, but never felt I worded it correctly, so I'll try a simplified version. With Perunovich up, I really wonder if Berube transitions use to a much more skilled/transition/run n gun style team. It's the style that best fits our 4 more talented defensemen as a group, and what best fits are current top performing forward, Thomas/Kyrou/Tarasenko/Buchnevich. Ideally once ROR/Perron are at their typical levels, they can play any style, similar to Parayko on the defensive side that can play a variety of team styles.

Now, this style isn't a proven success in the playoffs, and we still might not have enough talent to compete with other teams that play this way, but it's still probably what we are best designed to play.

 

[Mike Liut]

We can play a more up-tempo offensive style due to our talent level, but we can’t get away from our identity… heavy forcheck, backcheck and physicality. I think we need all those things together. This is a very good team when they play this way.

 

[PocketNines]

There’s merit in “make the most of what you are” approach. Count me in a group of swayable skeptics that this works in the playoffs. The reason I don’t think it does is exemplified by Colorado’s recent playoff struggles. I think that will continue.

One way or another we are about to get a stern 4 game test when we back to back the Florida teams. Those games will be a good test of the theory

 

[execwrite1]

The pure skill level of Kyrou, Thomas and Perunovich is off the charts. If they can translate those skills into wins, the Blues have a great corps of young weapons.

Biggest need remains a top LHD. If Scandella played at a Bouwmeester level we would be in good shape. He's just not at the level.

 

[NYBlues]

I agree about the reservations about a more up-tempo style, particularly in the playoffs. I guess we'll see.

I also think it's possible to not just play ONE way. You can play somewhat different styles when different personnel are out there.

The issue with the desire for more physicality is the most talented part of our roster can't really pull that off (Thomas, Kyrou, Peru, Tarasenko [while he's here]), but the rest can. So perhaps step up the intensity and physicality but let those guys be themselves while pushing the offensive tempo?

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I was going to make a post prior to Perunovich playing, but never felt I worded it correctly, so I'll try a simplified version. With Perunovich up, I really wonder if Berube transitions use to a much more skilled/transition/run n gun style team. It's the style that best fits our 4 more talented defensemen as a group, and what best fits are current top performing forward, Thomas/Kyrou/Tarasenko/Buchnevich. Ideally once ROR/Perron are at their typical levels, they can play any style, similar to Parayko on the defensive side that can play a variety of team styles.

Now, this style isn't a proven success in the playoffs, and we still might not have enough talent to compete with other teams that play this way, but it's still probably what we are best designed to play.

Why aren’t people viewing this as a deliberate choice by the front office? They acquired this roster and have shaped it this way. It’s looked like the plan to me for a good while. I think they’ve been trying to transition to a team that can skate with speed and skill, with dangerous transition D on the ice almost constantly. The Blues as constructed are a threat to score with virtually any line (when healthy) and have the defenders to allow the to not have to give just one or two lines the preferential D support.

They need a little time to play together, establish the lines and pairings, and gel. But I’ll say that brand of hockey last night was certainly entertaining.

 

[MissouriMook]

I was going to make a post prior to Perunovich playing, but never felt I worded it correctly, so I'll try a simplified version. With Perunovich up, I really wonder if Berube transitions use to a much more skilled/transition/run n gun style team. It's the style that best fits our 4 more talented defensemen as a group, and what best fits are current top performing forward, Thomas/Kyrou/Tarasenko/Buchnevich. Ideally once ROR/Perron are at their typical levels, they can play any style, similar to Parayko on the defensive side that can play a variety of team styles.

Now, this style isn't a proven success in the playoffs, and we still might not have enough talent to compete with other teams that play this way, but it's still probably what we are best designed to play.

We can play a more up-tempo offensive style due to our talent level, but we can’t get away from our identity… heavy forcheck, backcheck and physicality. I think we need all those things together. This is a very good team when they play this way.

I agree about the reservations about a more up-tempo style, particularly in the playoffs. I guess we'll see.

I also think it's possible to not just play ONE way. You can play somewhat different styles when different personnel are out there.

The issue with the desire for more physicality is the most talented part of our roster can't really pull that off (Thomas, Kyrou, Peru, Tarasenko [while he's here]), but the rest can. So perhaps step up the intensity and physicality but let those guys be themselves while pushing the offensive tempo?

I think the "up tempo" style fits playoff hockey just fine, you just have to make sure you are playing in straight lines and not abandoning the physicality while you're doing so, especially on your side of center ice and below the opponent's goal line. It makes me choke to give the devil his due, but look at the Blackhawks' Cup teams and you will see an up tempo, counter attacking approach that was still effective in the playoffs for those very reasons.

 

[PocketNines]

Let’s see how it holds up in four straight against Tampa, Tampa, Florida, Florida. That’s exactly the kind of test the roster needs.