Speculation: 2021-22 Trade Thread VI : Who's your Dadonov?

Status
Not open for further replies.

WhatTheDuck

9 - 20 - 8
May 17, 2007
23,427
16,181
Worst Case, Ontario
Some of you are so clueless. I would bet my right arm against $1000 that with the cap space and draft capital we have acquired ( and guys in the system alreAsy that PV might not like due to being small( zellwegger etc ) that we go out and sign lindholm and manson replacements as well a a very solid bottom pairing dman. And we add a fíala type. PV will just trade prospects alreAsy in the system and picks added at the deadline to add young guys and over pay for the defensive large vets I mention. I can almost guarantee you, that the pandemic of little guys like fowler and drsdale not being able to clear the front of the net. Will not be a problem anymore, with the new guys we have coming in. A guy like Zellwegger is 100% on the table in a trade for an age and salary appropriate guy like chychuryn. We will be the surpise team of the nhl next season. Boook that ( and I’m someone who’s alwAys been more of a pessimist ) just that in this scenario, you guys are reading way to much into our trades at the deadline. We never got it done with raks and manson and lindholm as our core guys ( they also were often hurt ) PV simply wants to bring in guys he loves. And he has the cap space , and the draft capital to do so.

Since your exact words were that the team would "sign" Lindholm/Manson replacements, and a non clueless person would never misspeak while making such a bold statement - here's the entire list of UFA D available this off season who played Manson's minutes or more this past season:

Letang
Chiarot
Klingberg
Leddy
Stralman
Braun

Let's just sign a couple studs off that list and we're on our way to the promise land.

Even though you clearly were referring to trades, do you have any clue how ridiculous, condescending and naive it is to call everyone here clueless and then suggest that the most likely scenario is that PV adds two new top pairing D and a first line forward all this off season? By his own words the team has multiple years left in the build. It's going to be a process, top pairing D in particular do not grow on trees, you can't count on getting one in any particular off season no matter how much space or assets you have.

The ones you call clueless are being far more realistic than you about how long it takes to rebuild a team that is basically torn down to the studs.
 

DavidBL

Registered User
Jul 25, 2012
6,038
3,993
Orange, CA
LIke politics, we're never going to find common ground so we can just agree to disagree. Maybe I'll be wrong but I don't think the team that breaks camp in October will be materially better than the team right now. Some small additions and not much else. And potentially without Gibson as well. I also believe it is part of Verbeek's longer term strategy for the team to be bad next year. We'll see if I'm right.
Agree to disagree then. We've been saying since the season ended. We'll know more draft day.
 

Hockey Duckie

Registered User
Jul 25, 2003
17,829
12,700
southern cal
Building through the draft isnt exactly articulating a strategy any more than saying g target Specifc UFAs or trade targets. You do see that right? You ask for a strategy but there are so many different ways ways to get to the finish line it's kind of pointless to pinpoint a single way. "Build through the draft" is a catch all that doesn't require your articulated strategy either. Further I'd argue that we've been building through the draft for 3+ years. We've always. But now we have 4 top 10 picks. How many do you think is necessary?

Building through the draft is a strategy if you're good at it.

* Bryan Murray was good at setting us up. Thank goodness the Oilers screwed up the Perry trade b/c they were greedy!​
*Burkie was abysmal at drafting. He kinda left us high and dry in cap crunching and no prospect depth.​
*Bob Murray was good at it as he was able to not only build through the draft, but also use it as trade capital via draft picks, prospects, or prospects who developed.​

Eaves was our last top-end acquisition, who eventually costs us a 2017 first round pick b/c we made it to the WCF. At the 2018-19 TDL was when Murray decided to go rebuild mode. He added an additional first round pick in 2019 and 2020.

To start this past season, the Ducks strategy of building through the draft looked like it was panning out well at the NHL level, top prospect level, and farm team levels. It's unfortunate what happened to Bob, which his tenure stopped in November of 2021. We both pined that the Ducks needed a better bottom pairing LHD and that Murray would have acquired one, who probably wouldn't cost valuable assets.

Just my opinion, but Murray would have probably kept and extended all the FA's Verbeek sold off. Murray is loyal to a fault. Des was protected from the Kraken expansion draft! With the 2021 class, Murray has collected enough assets to finally see depth developing. That implies Murray has tradeable assets in terms of prospects and picks. Murray already cited he loves the progress of his three college defensemen in Thrun, LaCombe, and Moore to where they could be trade capital.

You're conflating what Murray did with what Verbeek is doing now. Verbeek reset the team and left the NHL cupboard relatively empty. If Verbeek is in a hurry to make the team playoff contenders, then he's going to expend more assets in acquisition than he did when he traded off rentals. That doesn't make any sense b/c this team is lacking quality depth and that was before Verbeek traded away all four FA's.

I don't agree with what Verbeek did, but I'm onboard with this reset b/c I can't change teams to root for. Verbeek will end up where Murray was, but Verbeek is taking the scenic route. If Verbeek is true to his word of creating depth to be consistent Cup contenders, then he's doing a majority of it through the draft to either develop or trade off. Also, he can cycle an expensive player for a prospect to keep the cap space manageable.
Logistically, I don't see a big payoff if we overspend to grab assets now that affect our NHL level talent, AHL talent, junior talents, or draft picks. We're still trying to establish Zegras and Terry after their big year. Remember, Comtois also had a big year, but ghosted himself the followng season. Plus, we're going to be breaking in 19-year old McTavish at center at the NHL level.

What's funny about citing Zegras, Terry, and McTavish is that they are pillars for our future, which is that we're identifying building through the draft works. Of course, we should include Drysdale and Lundy to that mix.

We've got forwards Perreault and Tracey who are about a half-season or season away from becoming NHL regulars. In 2023-24, provided we sign our NCAA guys, we will have four defensive prospects going to the AHL in Thrun, LaCombe, Zellweger, and Hinds! We have RHD Andersson developing in the AHL and had rave reviews for his AHL play, except for being injured. But we have no idea who will pan out or when they will pan out. Terry took four pro seasons to look like he belongs. Steel looks lost after four pro seasons. Terry was a fifth round pick while Steel was a first round pick.

If many of the prospects pan out, then that's also a good thing b/c now we have trade capital.

Murray didn't like FA b/c you're competing to overpay players. He would rather make trades, usually during the season, and then extend those players that work out for him. Kesler, Rico, Eaves, and Deslauriers represent trade acquisitions who were extended. I think Verbeek will get there too in a couple of seasons or three.
 

Hockey Duckie

Registered User
Jul 25, 2003
17,829
12,700
southern cal
LIke politics, we're never going to find common ground so we can just agree to disagree. Maybe I'll be wrong but I don't think the team that breaks camp in October will be materially better than the team right now. Some small additions and not much else. And potentially without Gibson as well. I also believe it is part of Verbeek's longer term strategy for the team to be bad next year. We'll see if I'm right.

I think we'll be better than after the TDL roster come October. All Verbeek needs to do is land a physical top-4 LHD (or close to it) that can kill penalties to boost our PK and PP output. I don't expect us to be in the playoff hunt, though.

Low cost acquisition of one would be banking off the potential of Nic Hague. He's coming off his ELC and Vegas has no cap space! 6'6 LHD, age 23, and ATOI was 18:39 last season in 52 NHL games. Our own Benoit and Mahura's ATOI were about 14:05. We can probably offer sheet Hague and it would only cost us a 2nd round pick. Although, I think we could get him cheaper while also taking on cap space from Vegas.

I would want a better option than Sustr being Fowler's partner. Could get one via FA, if possible.

Acquiring two physical defensemen can vastly improve post-TDL roster. They don't have to be Lindholm-Manson talent levels, but I also don't expect production like Lindholm-Manson to vastly improve from post-TDL roster. We just need enough defensive talent to "Make Fowler Great Again"... which we currently do not possess.

Next year is all about development and consistency of our youths. If we re-sign Milano, then he gets added onto that development and consistency scope. Our defensive influx is about three seasons away. 2023-24 could bring Thrun, LaCombe, Zellweger, and Hinds to the AHL. 2024-25 is the season I can see Thrun and LaCombe breaking into the NHL, maybe Zellweger too.
 

duxfan1101

Registered User
Sep 20, 2014
11,810
18,349
California
Pagnotta clarifies Gibson situation:
In March, we came across information that John Gibson’s name was out there. The Anaheim Ducks were taking calls, but nothing materialized — until last week, when myself and Nick Alberga came across more info on the matter.

Gibson, who has five-years left on his contract and comes with a $6.4 million salary cap hit, is open to the idea of being moved and the team is aware. This was reported on Monday.

No, he has not asked for a trade – things can get lost in translation on social media and people love to jump to conclusions (or don’t read properly), so I want to make that clear. He does not want to move, but understands it’s a possibility. He also owns a 10-team no-trade clause, so he’ll have some say. And despite a denial from his agent, four separate sources, two of whom are with the Ducks organization, told us the same thing.

The goalie market this summer isn’t overly deep. Jack Campbell, Ville Husso, Darcy Kuemper, Marc-Andre Fleury and Braden Holtby lead the list of top UFA netminders. Ducks GM Pat Verbeek will explore his options this summer, but could sit back and wait to see if a team offers up a premium for Gibson – and that might be the only way he pulls the trigger.

Either way, you’ll hear Gibson’s name out there a little more frequently as the weeks storm ahead.
 
Aug 11, 2011
28,401
22,358
Am Yisrael Chai
Its just sensationalized reporting. Nothing new here.

What gets more clicks:
"Gibson does not want to move, but understands it’s a possibility"
or
"John Gibson is open to being dealt and belief out of Anaheim is he’s informed the club of that."
I don't think it's even a matter of sensational wording (although I think you're right about why Alberga did it) - given the strong, specific denials out of the agent and Gibson himself, it seems to be simply untrue that Gibson is open to being dealt. It sounds like he is very much not open to that. They say he wants to stay here, win here, he loves the idea of playing somewhere for his whole career, and no one's talked to him about a trade. That's a thorough denial. He didn't need to say anything at all, he plays in Anaheim, not Toronto or something where he'd have to deal with fans at the local poutine parlor or whatever the hell they have in Canada. And Pagnotta's "clarification" doesn't actually clarify what the sources told him.

It could also be true that GMs are calling about Gibson and that Gibson knows that and, I dunno, hasn't told PV not to answer the calls or something. But that isn't an openness to being dealt. I'm pretty skeptical that this is a thing at all, let alone a boring thing that's been click-baited up.
 

Leonardo87

New York Rangers, Anaheim Ducks, and TMNT fan.
Sponsor
Dec 8, 2013
39,791
61,043
New York
I don't think it's even a matter of sensational wording (although I think you're right about why Alberga did it) - given the strong, specific denials out of the agent and Gibson himself, it seems to be simply untrue that Gibson is open to being dealt. It sounds like he is very much not open to that. They say he wants to stay here, win here, he loves the idea of playing somewhere for his whole career, and no one's talked to him about a trade. That's a thorough denial. He didn't need to say anything at all, he plays in Anaheim, not Toronto or something where he'd have to deal with fans at the local poutine parlor or whatever the hell they have in Canada. And Pagnotta's "clarification" doesn't actually clarify what the sources told him.

It could also be true that GMs are calling about Gibson and that Gibson knows that and, I dunno, hasn't told PV not to answer the calls or something. But that isn't an openness to being dealt. I'm pretty skeptical that this is a thing at all, let alone a boring thing that's been click-baited up.

Well said.
 

DavidBL

Registered User
Jul 25, 2012
6,038
3,993
Orange, CA
Building through the draft is a strategy if you're good at it.

* Bryan Murray was good at setting us up. Thank goodness the Oilers screwed up the Perry trade b/c they were greedy!​
*Burkie was abysmal at drafting. He kinda left us high and dry in cap crunching and no prospect depth.​
*Bob Murray was good at it as he was able to not only build through the draft, but also use it as trade capital via draft picks, prospects, or prospects who developed.​

Eaves was our last top-end acquisition, who eventually costs us a 2017 first round pick b/c we made it to the WCF. At the 2018-19 TDL was when Murray decided to go rebuild mode. He added an additional first round pick in 2019 and 2020.

To start this past season, the Ducks strategy of building through the draft looked like it was panning out well at the NHL level, top prospect level, and farm team levels. It's unfortunate what happened to Bob, which his tenure stopped in November of 2021. We both pined that the Ducks needed a better bottom pairing LHD and that Murray would have acquired one, who probably wouldn't cost valuable assets.

Just my opinion, but Murray would have probably kept and extended all the FA's Verbeek sold off. Murray is loyal to a fault. Des was protected from the Kraken expansion draft! With the 2021 class, Murray has collected enough assets to finally see depth developing. That implies Murray has tradeable assets in terms of prospects and picks. Murray already cited he loves the progress of his three college defensemen in Thrun, LaCombe, and Moore to where they could be trade capital.

You're conflating what Murray did with what Verbeek is doing now. Verbeek reset the team and left the NHL cupboard relatively empty. If Verbeek is in a hurry to make the team playoff contenders, then he's going to expend more assets in acquisition than he did when he traded off rentals. That doesn't make any sense b/c this team is lacking quality depth and that was before Verbeek traded away all four FA's.

I don't agree with what Verbeek did, but I'm onboard with this reset b/c I can't change teams to root for. Verbeek will end up where Murray was, but Verbeek is taking the scenic route. If Verbeek is true to his word of creating depth to be consistent Cup contenders, then he's doing a majority of it through the draft to either develop or trade off. Also, he can cycle an expensive player for a prospect to keep the cap space manageable.
Logistically, I don't see a big payoff if we overspend to grab assets now that affect our NHL level talent, AHL talent, junior talents, or draft picks. We're still trying to establish Zegras and Terry after their big year. Remember, Comtois also had a big year, but ghosted himself the followng season. Plus, we're going to be breaking in 19-year old McTavish at center at the NHL level.

What's funny about citing Zegras, Terry, and McTavish is that they are pillars for our future, which is that we're identifying building through the draft works. Of course, we should include Drysdale and Lundy to that mix.

We've got forwards Perreault and Tracey who are about a half-season or season away from becoming NHL regulars. In 2023-24, provided we sign our NCAA guys, we will have four defensive prospects going to the AHL in Thrun, LaCombe, Zellweger, and Hinds! We have RHD Andersson developing in the AHL and had rave reviews for his AHL play, except for being injured. But we have no idea who will pan out or when they will pan out. Terry took four pro seasons to look like he belongs. Steel looks lost after four pro seasons. Terry was a fifth round pick while Steel was a first round pick.

If many of the prospects pan out, then that's also a good thing b/c now we have trade capital.

Murray didn't like FA b/c you're competing to overpay players. He would rather make trades, usually during the season, and then extend those players that work out for him. Kesler, Rico, Eaves, and Deslauriers represent trade acquisitions who were extended. I think Verbeek will get there too in a couple of seasons or three.
I agree it is very much a strategy. The poster was asking for an articulated strategy on how I would build the team, citing that PV has stated he would build through the draft. To me that means that he's looking for specific strategies or players I would implement. If that is what they considered articulated. To me "build through the draft" is even less articulated as there is generally even less clear cut strategy. We don't know where our picks are going to land from a year to year basis and have even less idea on who who be available. Generally in FA or trade you have a specific target in mind which can make planning a whole lot easier. That's all I meant. If that is not what the poster meant by articulated strategy then go ahead and disregard. I think the Ducks have, are, and will continue to build via the draft. I just don't think it will be the sole avenue nor do I think its limited by where the team is if the right deals are there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Duck Off

tomd

Registered User
Apr 23, 2003
9,674
5,395
Visit site
Pagnotta clarifies Gibson situation:
I don't trust the media as far as I can throw them but this seems unusually specific. To specifically say that they had two sources in the Ducks organization confirm their claims raises lying to a whole new level if in fact they are just making stuff up. And no one in the Ducks organization is denying any of this (as far as I know). There is too much smoke here for there not to be a fire somewhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Smirnov2Chistov

FiveHoleTickler

Registered User
Sponsor
Sep 21, 2018
3,768
5,926
I don't trust the media as far as I can throw them but this seems unusually specific. To specifically say that they had two sources in the Ducks organization confirm their claims raises lying to a whole new level if in fact they are just making stuff up. And no one in the Ducks organization is denying any of this (as far as I know). There is too much smoke here for there not to be a fire somewhere.

I think you (among others here) keep trying to interpret things a certain way because you want Gibson to be traded. You're misconstruing reality for the sake of personal preference.
 
Aug 11, 2011
28,401
22,358
Am Yisrael Chai
I don't trust the media as far as I can throw them but this seems unusually specific. To specifically say that they had two sources in the Ducks organization confirm their claims raises lying to a whole new level if in fact they are just making stuff up. And no one in the Ducks organization is denying any of this (as far as I know). There is too much smoke here for there not to be a fire somewhere.
They didn't say that they had two sources in the organization that confirmed their original claim, which was that Gibson was open to being dealt and had told the team that. From this very muddily-worded statement, they're saying that the sources confirmed that Gibson's name is "out there" in that PV had gotten calls about him, and that Gibson understands being traded is a possibility.

That's essentially a repudiation of the earlier claim and makes this look like a non-story. Obviously there would be interest in a good goalie playing on a rebuilding team, obviously that interest would peak around the trade deadline and again before the draft, and obviously every NHL player knows that a trade is a possibility unless there's been some assurance that it won't happen.
 

tomd

Registered User
Apr 23, 2003
9,674
5,395
Visit site
They didn't say that they had two sources in the organization that confirmed their original claim, which was that Gibson was open to being dealt and had told the team that. From this very muddily-worded statement, they're saying that the sources confirmed that Gibson's name is "out there" in that PV had gotten calls about him, and that Gibson understands being traded is a possibility.

That's essentially a repudiation of the earlier claim and makes this look like a non-story. Obviously there would be interest in a good goalie playing on a rebuilding team, obviously that interest would peak around the trade deadline and again before the draft, and obviously every NHL player knows that a trade is a possibility unless there's been some assurance that it won't happen.
I'm not claiming that the two sources confirmed the original claim. I actually don't believe that Gibson has formally requested a trade. And I do believe that Gibson wants to stay IF the Ducks are committed to winning next year (shades of Doughty). These things all make sense to me from Gibson's POV.

OTOH, I DO believe that the Ducks are frustrated with Gibson's on-ice body language. I do NOT believe that the Ducks are committed to winning next year. I DO believe that Verbeek is actively listening to offers with the intention of trading Gibson IF he gets an offer he likes. These things all make sense to me from Verbeek's POV.

Hope that clears up any confusion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavidBL
Aug 11, 2011
28,401
22,358
Am Yisrael Chai
I think you (among others here) keep trying to interpret things a certain way because you want Gibson to be traded. You're misconstruing reality for the sake of personal preference.

I'm not claiming that the two sources confirmed the original claim. I actually don't believe that Gibson has formally requested a trade. And I do believe that Gibson wants to stay IF the Ducks are committed to winning next year (shades of Doughty). These things all make sense to me from Gibson's POV.

OTOH, I DO believe that the Ducks are frustrated with Gibson's on-ice body language. I do NOT believe that the Ducks are committed to winning next year. I DO believe that Verbeek is actively listening to offers with the intention of trading Gibson IF he gets an offer he likes. These things all make sense to me from Verbeek's POV.

Hope that clears up any confusion.
Yep.
 

FiveHoleTickler

Registered User
Sponsor
Sep 21, 2018
3,768
5,926
OTOH, I DO believe that the Ducks are frustrated with Gibson's on-ice body language.

I don't think I've pointed this out before, but I really don't recall seeing any negative body language from him this past season. Years prior, perhaps, but even then how does anyone know he's not upset with himself? Hell, Mike Smith threw his arms in the air after pretty much every goal he let in this postseason and I don't see anyone saying it was directed at his teammates or that management is upset at his body language.

I really think that narrative is blown completely out of proportion.

I'm assuming that "yep" means you agree with what I said in my post. If not, please note areas of disagreement.

I could be wrong, but I think he was inferring that your post proves what I was saying.
 

tomd

Registered User
Apr 23, 2003
9,674
5,395
Visit site
I don't think I've pointed this out before, but I really don't recall seeing any negative body language from him this past season. Years prior, perhaps, but even then how does anyone know he's not upset with himself? Hell, Mike Smith threw his arms in the air after pretty much every goal he let in this postseason and I don't see anyone saying it was directed at his teammates or that management is upset at his body language.

I really think that narrative is blown completely out of proportion.



I could be wrong, but I think he was inferring that your post proves what I was saying.
His body language was fine the first half of the year when the team was doing well. It was during the second half collapse that it (once again) became noticeable. I'm far from the only person on this board that noticed it.
 

tomd

Registered User
Apr 23, 2003
9,674
5,395
Visit site
I could be wrong, but I think he was inferring that your post proves what I was saying.
If Verbeek is doing a full rebuild that is going to take 2-3 years before the team even sniffs respectability, then yes I do want him to trade Gibson. Can't make it any clearer than that.
 

FiveHoleTickler

Registered User
Sponsor
Sep 21, 2018
3,768
5,926
His body language was fine the first half of the year when the team was doing well. It was during the second half collapse that it (once again) became noticeable. I'm far from the only person on this board that noticed it.

Can you provide specific examples? I'm open to being proven otherwise. Just saying other people noticed it doesn't sway me at all. Groups of people misinterpret things all the time. Tons of people (not saying you or anyone here) just misinterpreted these supposed "reports" that "Gibson is open to being traded" being the same as "Gibson asked for a trade."

Again, let's assume you're right. How does anyone know it is directed at his teammates and not himself?

If Verbeek is doing a full rebuild that is going to take 2-3 years before the team even sniffs respectability, then yes I do want him to trade Gibson. Can't make it any clearer than that.

I didn't ask for clarity. I agree, you've made that clear.

What I'm saying is you're choosing to look at things a certain way because it supports your preference. You aren't looking at things objectively.
 

tomd

Registered User
Apr 23, 2003
9,674
5,395
Visit site
Can you provide specific examples? I'm open to being proven otherwise. Just saying other people noticed it doesn't sway me at all. Groups of people misinterpret things all the time. Tons of people (not saying you or anyone here) just misinterpreted these supposed "reports" that "Gibson is open to being traded" being the same as "Gibson asked for a trade."

Again, let's assume you're right. How does anyone know it is directed at his teammates and not himself?



I didn't ask for clarity. I agree, you've made that clear.

What I'm saying is you're choosing to look at things a certain way because it supports your preference. You aren't looking at things objectively.
Providing specifics would take me time and research I don't have but it has been a much commented on discussion for the past 2 years including this past year. If you started a poll, I think most fans who watch the team would say they noticed it this past year.

Frank Seravelli has him #7 on his "Trade Targets" list and has this to say:

7. John Gibson
Goaltender, Anaheim Ducks
Age: 28
Stats: 56 GP, 18-26-11, 3.19 GAA, .904 Sv%
Contract: 5 more seasons, $6.4 million AAV
Scoop: Quietly, Gibson’s name circulated among GMs in the days leading up to the March 21 trade deadline, floated by new Ducks manager Pat Verbeek as a lifeline to any teams in need of a netminder. That contract may be prohibitive in term, for a goaltender who has been below league average in save percentage for each of the last three seasons. Prior to that, Gibson was one of the most consistent and talented goalies in the league. His body language in Anaheim indicates frustration, so perhaps a change of scenery will energize him.

It's not exactly a league-wide secret. There have been other articles as well with more specificity that have said that he gives the evil eye to his teammates after a bad play but I can't find that right now.

As far as objectivity, it is my opinion based upon the direction Verbeek seems to be going with the team. It has been supported by pundits around the league from Friedman to Seravelli to Hoven. I normally don't pay much attention to them but, again, where there is smoke there is fire. What I have said many times before though is that I do NOT want to watch 50-60 games of Gibson's bad body language again next year playing behind an atrocious team. That is not good for him nor is it good for the organization.

We'll know in about 3 weeks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad