Speculation: 2021-22 Trade Thread VI : Who's your Dadonov?

[Yemeth]

It is, Verbeek f***ed up bit time not just on Lindholm but also trading Des. I'm so excited for that 3rd round pick that has less than a 10% chance of even becoming a NHL player.

I posted the same thing about Des on reddit after Terry got mauled and got downvoted to hell, so maybe we are really the minority thinking this way.

I take a real NHL hockey player like Des protecting our young talent over any 3rd round pick, of course, we could get a franchise talent with that pick but looking it that way no one would every trade a pick for anything any way.

 

[bsu]

I posted the same thing about Des on reddit after Terry got mauled and got downvoted to hell, so maybe we are really the minority thinking this way.

I take a real NHL hockey player like Des protecting our young talent over any 3rd round pick, of course, we could get a franchise talent with that pick but looking it that way no one would every trade a pick for anything any way.

You have to assume Des wanted to re-sign here. He f***ing loved it here and loved all his teammates. He got voted #1 teammate in locker room and also the funniest guy on the team. Verbeek made a big mistake not only he is extremely valuable on the ice but the locker room matters too.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

How does supplement anything.... i suppose lindholm coulda played more like fowler and gotten injured a lot less and people woulda been cool with him staying?

Father Time is undefeated and injuries just speed that process up. If he didn't have his injury history it wouldn't have changed my mind at all on an 8 year deal being a very bad bet but I would've felt a bit better about it after the fact and it might've changed my mind on a 5 or 6 year deal, given it was that close to begin with.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

I think what's interesting about McTavish is he could be a great number 2 center, or the perfect winger for Zegras wouldn't be surprised if he does both tbh

 

[KaseMeOutside]

You have to assume Des wanted to re-sign here. He f***ing loved it here and loved all his teammates. He got voted #1 teammate in locker room and also the funniest guy on the team. Verbeek made a big mistake not only he is extremely valuable on the ice but the locker room matters too.

Anaheim got a top 100 pick for a 4th liner. As much as we like him you take it, the mistake is they didn't go out and replace him with a cheaper option or have internal candidates

Also if they want him back they have the money to sign him agajn

 

[Anaheim4ever]

I think what's interesting about McTavish is he could be a great number 2 center, or the perfect winger for Zegras wouldn't be surprised if he does both tbh

Especially if they end up drafting Geekie(assuming Nemec and Jiricek are gone). Too many centers is a good problem to have.

McTavish could also be his bodyguard lol.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I am inclined to agree. One thing we're not really discussing at all here is building sustained success. That's not what we'd necessarily have with Lindholm on the books.

We know Verbeek comes from Tampa where they literally took on the challenge of creating a team capable of winning several cups. I think it's safe to assume that's the plan here. Simultaneously we know that it's reasonable to assume that Lindholm's play will get worse 3-4 years into his new contract. Even with him in the roster, it takes about that long to get to a point where we have even a theoretical shot at cup competition.

Realistically, we'd have a year, possibly two, of being competitive with him around, and then it's another decline where we'd have to retool the D slightly to have the same shot. We all know how hard that is from previous experience.

Sure we'd be a massively better team for the first half of the contract, but is the tail end worth it? I don't necessarily think so. If we can sign a couple of decent stopgap D-men and avoid the Edmonton scenario, I think we come out on top.

Please don't use Tampa as the template. Yzerman relied on several veterans to help insulate his youths as well as wait for prospects to develop. Feel free to look up the roster the first year Yzerman took over and the third year. You'll find an ancient Martin St. Louis still on the books.

Also, Yzerman didn't win Cups with the Bolts. Yzerman was the bridesmaid, but never the bride. The next GM is the one that won multiple cups.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Hopefully. The point has been gone over and nauseam, he gets hurt a lot and it's highly likely that gets worse instead of better.

The past four seasons before this one he missed nearly a quarter of all the teams' games, a rate that likely was suppressed by the pandemic. This year he had finally been healthy and likely more or less will have been but that's been more the exception as of late. It's one thing to debate how much of a concern it is going forward but I've found it weird that people are just pretending like he hasn't missed a ton of games the last few years.

Injuries are bad luck. We all know that Lindholm is very disciplined in the off-season to be in shape or better shape, unlike Comtois. Lindholm was present for all, but 2 Ducks games this season (technically 3, but he was told not to dress b/c he was going to be traded). But for all those wanting to trade for Chychrun...

Lindholm
Ducks
Season	Games	Games Played	.	Games Missed	.	Pts	PPG	.	Plus/Minus
2013-14	82	78		4		30	0.37		29
2014-15	82	78		4		34	0.41		25
2015-16	82	80		2		28	0.34		7
2016-17	82	66		16		20	0.24		13
2017-18	82	69		13		31	0.38		16
2018-19	82	76		6		28	0.34		-5
2019-20	71	55		16		22	0.31		-10
2020-21	56	18		38		6	0.11		-1
2021-22	63	61		2		22	0.35		0
							Avg
Sum	682	581		101		221	0.32		74

I'm not including Lindholm's time with Boston b/c he got hurt in Boston and not with us. Who know if that injury occurs if he's still playing with us?

Chychrun
Yotes
Season	Games	Games Played	.	Games Missed	.	Pts	PPG		Plus/Minus
2016-17	82	68		14		20	0.24		-14
2017-18	82	50		32		14	0.17		2
2018-19	82	53		29		20	0.24		-12
2019-20	70	63		7		26	0.37		4
2020-21	56	56		0		41	0.73		-6
2021-22	70	47		23		21	0.30		-20
							Avg
Sum	442​	337​		105​		142​	0.32​		-46​

Chychrun has missed more games than Lindholm in fewer years in the league. Should we stay away from such an injury prone defenseman despite him being quite young? And for all the hype about Chychrun's offense, his singular season is what is propping up his overall.

Chychrun has similar ppg, but more injury prone and doesn't do well defensively.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Who cares about Lindholm, he’s not here anymore. Time to move on lol

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Who cares about Lindholm, he’s not here anymore. Time to move on lol

Is it because the comparison I made between Lindholm and Chychrun that makes it not worthwhile to look into Chychrun, espeically for all the people complaining about Lindholm being injury prone?

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I think what's interesting about McTavish is he could be a great number 2 center, or the perfect winger for Zegras wouldn't be surprised if he does both tbh

I'm hoping McTavish could become a very good #1. It might take a couple of seasons to get there. We really don't know what his ceiling is, but he's excelling everywhere with his peer group and lower level men's groups. When I was making the case for McTavish before the draft, I cited his huge jump in development in his D+0 season might have raised his ceiling even more.

I'd start him off like as a 3C, but really like a 2C so we'd have two 2C's in Lundy and McTavish.

Jones-Zegras-Terry​

xxx-Lundy-Silf​

Rico-McTavish-xxx​

Grant-Carrick(? UFA)-xxx​

Comtois​

We have a few prospects in the AHL that could vie for a spot out of F Elvenes, RW Perreault, and LW Tracey. I think Elvenes should get the first shot on the team.

I think Jones would be the perfect winger for a Zegras-Terry combo as Jones not only has the speed, but the physicality to be the bouncer for our two most finesse offensive players. Jones can also create a lot of chaos in front of the net so either Zegras or Terry can take advantage of the situation.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Is it because the comparison I made between Lindholm and Chychrun that makes it not worthwhile to look into Chychrun, espeically for all the people complaining about Lindholm being injury prone?

I think its more that seemingly every thread is spammed about Lindholm and its getting a bit old.

With Chychrun his own injury stuff is a great point and something that absolutely has to be considered. To me, unless another opportunity is possible(like Tampa being open to dealing Sergachev in the summer of 2023), the upside is worth the risk.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I think its more that seemingly every thread is spammed about Lindholm and its getting a bit old.

With Chychrun his own injury stuff is a great point and something that absolutely has to be considered. To me, unless another opportunity is possible(like Tampa being open to dealing Sergachev in the summer of 2023), the upside is worth the risk.

Or we don't trade for Chychrun and we take the scenic route to let our prospects to continue to develop.

Verbeek did a reset. A reset means it's gonna take some time to become competitive again. I'm not expecting a trade for a top-end player when we really don't know what we have in so many prospects incoming, especially with Helleson and, potentially, LaCombe next season to the AHL and a call-ups here and there.

We're tanking on purpose, which means we have an overabundance of holes to fill that cannot be filled in one off-season.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Or we don't trade for Chychrun and we take the scenic route to let our prospects to continue to develop.

Verbeek did a reset. A reset means it's gonna take some time to become competitive again. I'm not expecting a trade for a top-end player when we really don't know what we have in so many prospects incoming, especially with Helleson and, potentially, LaCombe next season to the AHL and a call-ups here and there.

We're tanking on purpose, which means we have an overabundance of holes to fill that cannot be filled in one off-season.

Sure, that's an option too, although you're probably not getting a #1 guy out of anyone in the system. I think you should always try for that.

And I don't see it as a reset at all. He traded away the pending UFAs he didn't want to keep, that's just more or less typical business. It opened up some holes to fill but that's the way it goes sometimes. He won't fill every hole in one offseason but that's one in particular he could tackle.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Sure, that's an option too, although you're probably not getting a #1 guy out of anyone in the system. I think you should always try for that.

And I don't see it as a reset at all. He traded away the pending UFAs he didn't want to keep, that's just more or less typical business. It opened up some holes to fill but that's the way it goes sometimes. He won't fill every hole in one offseason but that's one in particular he could tackle.

I think the tanking might be one of the options of finding that #1 guy. We're currently 11th right now, but SJ will pass us up b/c they're playing much better than us. (They're also playing the Flames tomorrow night, which means they'll have to fly into SJ. It's probably an hour flight, but the whole packing, going to the airport, leaving the airport, and unpacking can be very annoying to be playing on a back-to-back.) Detroit isn't that far away from passing us up as they're on a 2-game win streak. Buffalo is 6-1-3 in their last 10, they'll probably pass us up too. The Sens are 5-4-1 in their last 10 with a 3-game winning streak

11th Ducks: 72 gms, 68 pts
10th SJ: 69 gms, 67 pts
9th Wings: 71 gms, 65 pts
8th Buf: 71 gms, 63 pts

If we can get into the top-10, then I think we can win the lottery to move up b/c we're no longer under Murray's guide.

If we can get into the top-7, then we're hoping that a talent will drop to us like a Jiricek, Kemell, or a Lambert.

======

We're beyond a crap team today and you say it's not a reset? We're tanking faster than Frank the Tank on purpose and you say it's not a reset?

If you say it like you worded it of "He traded away the pending UFAs he didn't want to keep", then I guess it's business like usual. If you word it in context of, "Verbeek traded away a top-pairing D, a top-4 D, a top-6 goal scorer, and a 4th line who PK's well, plays physical, and is an enforcer; and all I got in return were AHLers, prospects, and picks", then it's safe to say it's a reset. Oh, Verbeek did want to keep Lindholm, but only on a 4-year term. Hey, I don't like Verbeek's path, but I see where he's going.

And if acquiring Chychrun costs significantly more than what Lindhom brought back, then that would be terrible asset management, especially if it includes Zellweger b/c Zellweger is still years away and you want to get better overnight.

I'll pass, keep Zellweger, endure the pain for a couple of years, and then enjoy Zellweger for the years to come.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I think the tanking might be one of the options of finding that #1 guy. We're currently 11th right now, but SJ will pass us up b/c they're playing much better than us. (They're also playing the Flames tomorrow night, which means they'll have to fly into SJ. It's probably an hour flight, but the whole packing, going to the airport, leaving the airport, and unpacking can be very annoying to be playing on a back-to-back.) Detroit isn't that far away from passing us up as they're on a 2-game win streak. Buffalo is 6-1-3 in their last 10, they'll probably pass us up too. The Sens are 5-4-1 in their last 10 with a 3-game winning streak

11th Ducks: 72 gms, 68 pts
10th SJ: 69 gms, 67 pts
9th Wings: 71 gms, 65 pts
8th Buf: 71 gms, 63 pts

If we can get into the top-10, then I think we can win the lottery to move up b/c we're no longer under Murray's guide.

If we can get into the top-7, then we're hoping that a talent will drop to us like a Jiricek, Kemell, or a Lambert.

======

We're beyond a crap team today and you say it's not a reset? We're tanking faster than Frank the Tank on purpose and you say it's not a reset?

If you say it like you worded it of "He traded away the pending UFAs he didn't want to keep", then I guess it's business like usual. If you word it in context of, "Verbeek traded away a top-pairing D, a top-4 D, a top-6 goal scorer, and a 4th line who PK's well, plays physical, and is an enforcer; and all I got in return were AHLers, prospects, and picks", then it's safe to say it's a reset. Oh, Verbeek did want to keep Lindholm, but only on a 4-year term. Hey, I don't like Verbeek's path, but I see where he's going.

And if acquiring Chychrun costs significantly more than what Lindhom brought back, then that would be terrible asset management, especially if it includes Zellweger b/c Zellweger is still years away and you want to get better overnight.

I'll pass, keep Zellweger, endure the pain for a couple of years, and then enjoy Zellweger for the years to come.

We stand pretty much no chance at getting in the top 7 pre-lottery. 11 points in the Sen' final 13 games is a tall ask in itself, same with 10 points in the Blackhawks' 12. And that's just what they need to pass us if we lose out completely which probably isn't happening and thats just for one of those teams to pull ahead of us. 8th or 9th is doable but requires a lot of help. Maybe they get a guy that way but there's no guarantees with that.

Trading more for Chychrun than you got back for Lindholm also isn't anywhere close to terrible asset management. He's worth a lot more, that's just common sense. And again, trading for Chychrun isn't about today its about getting a top pairing defenseman that fits with the young core. Lindholm was going to turn 32 as that core hits their prime and 32 is probably the absolute oldest you can reasonably expect Lindholm to be a higher quality defenseman, and Chychrun would be turning 28, or also in his prime. It's *only* four years but it's truly a massive difference in this respect.

 

[Duck Off]

We stand pretty much no chance at getting in the top 7 pre-lottery. 11 points in the Sen' final 13 games is a tall ask in itself, same with 10 points in the Blackhawks' 12. And that's just what they need to pass us if we lose out completely which probably isn't happening and thats just for one of those teams to pull ahead of us. 8th or 9th is doable but requires a lot of help. Maybe they get a guy that way but there's no guarantees with that.

Trading more for Chychrun than you got back for Lindholm also isn't anywhere close to terrible asset management. He's worth a lot more, that's just common sense. And again, trading for Chychrun isn't about today its about getting a top pairing defenseman that fits with the young core. Lindholm was going to turn 32 as that core hits their prime and 32 is probably the absolute oldest you can reasonably expect Lindholm to be a higher quality defenseman, and Chychrun would be turning 28, or also in his prime. It's *only* four years but it's truly a massive difference in this respect.

This.

I’ll also add that paying more for Chychrun is also more feasible because the other assets brought in at the deadline. We won’t have to spend assets to replace those players, as they are replaceable via free agency.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Is it because the comparison I made between Lindholm and Chychrun that makes it not worthwhile to look into Chychrun, espeically for all the people complaining about Lindholm being injury prone?

The post wasn’t towards you, it was just towards a certain individual who is obsessed with him.

I appreciate all your in depth analysis you provide

 

[Dryish]

Please don't use Tampa as the template. Yzerman relied on several veterans to help insulate his youths as well as wait for prospects to develop. Feel free to look up the roster the first year Yzerman took over and the third year. You'll find an ancient Martin St. Louis still on the books.

Also, Yzerman didn't win Cups with the Bolts. Yzerman was the bridesmaid, but never the bride. The next GM is the one that won multiple cups.

I knew I should have spelled it out in the post, hah. No, absolutely not using Tampa as a template, none of us should. Verbeek himself said they had get-out-of-jail-free cards in Stamkos and Hedman, so that's not applicable to our situation. Zegras isn't Stamkos, unfortunately.

What I meant is that those guys that built the team, and I think you can absolutely credit Yzerman for building most of what's won there now outside of the team-leading superstars, in a way that aimed for sustained cup competition capacity. Their team contract structure, albeit certainly helped along by Florida's taxes, was constantly one that would afford them more role players, more sandpaper, more shots at going for it. Team age structure too. And that's all on purpose. They specifically went for that, as opposed to just splurging on what they could to win a single cup and being happy with it.

I don't think it's that far out to think it's deliberate, and that Verbeek, having been around that group of people, would want to do the same with the Ducks. Time will tell if he ever succeeds, though.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I think its more that seemingly every thread is spammed about Lindholm and its getting a bit old.

With Chychrun his own injury stuff is a great point and something that absolutely has to be considered. To me, unless another opportunity is possible(like Tampa being open to dealing Sergachev in the summer of 2023), the upside is worth the risk.

 

[Rybread86]

I wouldnt go after Chychrun and I dont think Arizona should trade him either. They have a ton of picks, trade those and build around the guy.

Lindholm was good, never great. He and Fowler are very similar, neither is a #1 guy and always excelled when playing a supporting role. You arent looking to replace Lindholm, you are looking to get a #1 dman, something we havent had since... since... shoot, 2012 and Lubo? Some guys have had good seasons since then but 2011 Lubo had 68 points. Lindholms career high is 34 points, Fowlers is 40.

Beeker should be looking to use some of our assets to either trade up into a position to get a #1 or finding a guy still early in his career that they believe will become a #1, like how NYR got Adam Fox.

That would be one of my top priorities. Then they need to surround some of the young guys with stable vets and guys who play with an edge. Doesnt have to be scrub enforcers but think more like a Lucic type player, Tkachuk, Jeannot, Foligno, hell even a Tom Wilson. They put up points but they play rough.

Outside of that, Monahan maybe depending how he recovers from hip surgery. Kes didnt do so hot and Silfver didnt exactly bounce back.

Look at maybe a DeBrusk, maybe Kubalik could trun it around with a new team.

There is plenty to target, but those would be thing main assets I think beeker should be looking at. if you can pull off a pure goal scorer trade, great, but outside of a couple of bridge vets, need to be looking at guys 26 or younger to fit into this core.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I wouldnt go after Chychrun and I dont think Arizona should trade him either. They have a ton of picks, trade those and build around the guy.

Lindholm was good, never great. He and Fowler are very similar, neither is a #1 guy and always excelled when playing a supporting role. You arent looking to replace Lindholm, you are looking to get a #1 dman, something we havent had since... since... shoot, 2012 and Lubo? Some guys have had good seasons since then but 2011 Lubo had 68 points. Lindholms career high is 34 points, Fowlers is 40.

Beeker should be looking to use some of our assets to either trade up into a position to get a #1 or finding a guy still early in his career that they believe will become a #1, like how NYR got Adam Fox.

That would be one of my top priorities. Then they need to surround some of the young guys with stable vets and guys who play with an edge. Doesnt have to be scrub enforcers but think more like a Lucic type player, Tkachuk, Jeannot, Foligno, hell even a Tom Wilson. They put up points but they play rough.

Outside of that, Monahan maybe depending how he recovers from hip surgery. Kes didnt do so hot and Silfver didnt exactly bounce back.

Look at maybe a DeBrusk, maybe Kubalik could trun it around with a new team.

There is plenty to target, but those would be thing main assets I think beeker should be looking at. if you can pull off a pure goal scorer trade, great, but outside of a couple of bridge vets, need to be looking at guys 26 or younger to fit into this core.

Didn’t fox more or less choose the rangers,

Obviously if tkachuk is made available we should be all over him, fiala and tkachuk are my dream options(1 of them) I like the debrusk idea still, but it seems he might stay in Boston now.

Dmen I really haven’t looked at too much but manson, gudbranson or player like that would be good addition…. Not sure we’re going to find a top pairing guy this year… unless it’s through draft which will be a year or 2 away.

Resign carrick, bring in a guy like des…. Hell if Calgary will pay us to take lucic (or kassian from oilers ) for our 4th line I’d consider that

 

[Duck Off]

I wouldnt go after Chychrun and I dont think Arizona should trade him either. They have a ton of picks, trade those and build around the guy.

Lindholm was good, never great. He and Fowler are very similar, neither is a #1 guy and always excelled when playing a supporting role. You arent looking to replace Lindholm, you are looking to get a #1 dman, something we havent had since... since... shoot, 2012 and Lubo? Some guys have had good seasons since then but 2011 Lubo had 68 points. Lindholms career high is 34 points, Fowlers is 40.

Beeker should be looking to use some of our assets to either trade up into a position to get a #1 or finding a guy still early in his career that they believe will become a #1, like how NYR got Adam Fox.

That would be one of my top priorities. Then they need to surround some of the young guys with stable vets and guys who play with an edge. Doesnt have to be scrub enforcers but think more like a Lucic type player, Tkachuk, Jeannot, Foligno, hell even a Tom Wilson. They put up points but they play rough.

Outside of that, Monahan maybe depending how he recovers from hip surgery. Kes didnt do so hot and Silfver didnt exactly bounce back.

Look at maybe a DeBrusk, maybe Kubalik could trun it around with a new team.

There is plenty to target, but those would be thing main assets I think beeker should be looking at. if you can pull off a pure goal scorer trade, great, but outside of a couple of bridge vets, need to be looking at guys 26 or younger to fit into this core.

I agree with most of this. The part that confuses me is you say we shouldn't trade for Chychrun, but that we should try and trade for someone who can become a top defenseman. Chychrun turned 24 a week ago and he's somewhere around Lindholm's level right now. How does that guy not fit the criteria you mention in the rest of the post?

Other than that, I agree with essentially everything you're saying here. I was hoping Debrusk would have been part of the Lindholm trade. Depending on cost, I'd like him as well.

My wish list for this offseason definitely starts with Chychrun. To me he's exactly what we need. I think Arizona is stupid to trade him, but I get why they are.

Other than Chychrun, i'm hoping Manson and Gudbranson are added. Yes, I'd like both. I'd also like to see Shattenkirk moved for an asset. I think there's value for him somewhere at 1.9 million. I'd be more on board with keeping him to shield the kids, but that's not happening with him right now so I'd rather ship him off.

For forwards, Trocheck is my main FA target. I'd like Deslauriers back but I don't see that happening. Based on Verbeek's comments, he seems more interested in physical defenseman than forwards. Hopefully we'll add one more top 9 forward through trade or free agency (in addition to Trocheck).

Milano - Zegras - Terry
Henrique - Trocheck - Trade/UFA
Jones - Lundestrom - McTavish
Carrick - Grant - Silfverberg

Fowler - Manson
Chychrun - Drysdale
Benoit - Gudbranson
Mahura

Assuming a bit more growth from Z and Lundy, i think that lineup is as good as the one that started this season. I omitted Comtois because I expect him to get traded.

 

[Rybread86]

I agree with most of this. The part that confuses me is you say we shouldn't trade for Chychrun, but that we should try and trade for someone who can become a top defenseman. Chychrun turned 24 a week ago and he's somewhere around Lindholm's level right now. How does that guy not fit the criteria you mention in the rest of the post?

IM not sold on Chychrun becoming a legit #1. I think he will be good, but what scares me or makes me apprehensive is I see him turning into another REALLY good #2 and we've had a slew of those.

If Beeker and crew do their homework and determine he will be that legit #1, then I'm on board. I just dont personally see it.

And again, I think Arizona would be making a mistake but that pretty much sums up their organization so it would make sense.

 

[Rybread86]

Assuming a bit more growth from Z and Lundy, i think that lineup is as good as the one that started this season. I omitted Comtois because I expect him to get traded.

At this point I hope he is traded. They could maybe work out a Comtois for Kubalik trade or something similar.