2020 Roster and Fantasy GM Thread II

[MS]

Me not being outraged isn’t because I don’t have a clue. I’m not outraged because I find nothing more pathetic than the sight of a grown man that is constantly outraged. I’m supposed to whip myself up in rage because the Canucks MIGHT be forced to walk away from a couple middling players? Not gonna happen.

What a pathetic response. My reactions to the bad management of this team have absolutely nothing to do with how I go about my life outside of the distraction of an NHL message board.

If this is your response, you have no argument.

No, I’m not going to equate losing Stecher and Virtanen to losing Byfuglien, Versteeg, Ladd etc. You’re on your own with that one.

If you can explain why a 2020 24 y/o Virtanen scoring 45 points as a middle-6 forward on a young team is such a terrible comparison to 2010 24 y/o Byfuglien and Versteeg scoring 35-45 points as middle-6 forwards on a young team, I'm all ears. And I'm pretty sure I'm not 'all on my own' thinking that's a reasonable comparison.

 

[sting101]

If your point is Ferland won’t throw any hits if he’s not dressed, I agree.

If he’s playing, he’s easily the teams biggest, most physical player.

Sure but you don't actually punish anyone by not playing? So how or why should Ferland effect how you look at your personnel that actually play and influence games?

At this point he's a non entity because as we saw early on Travis had to spoon feed him because he couldn't keep up enough to play.

 

[Hoghandler]

What a pathetic response. My reactions to the bad management of this team have absolutely nothing to do with how I go about my life outside of the distraction of an NHL message board.

If this is your response, you have no argument.



If you can explain why a 2020 24 y/o Virtanen scoring 45 points as a middle-6 forward on a young team is such a terrible comparison to 2010 24 y/o Byfuglien and Versteeg scoring 35-45 points as middle-6 forwards on a young team, I'm all ears. And I'm pretty sure I'm not 'all on my own' thinking that's a reasonable comparison.

You’re free to continue to be perpetually outraged, nobody is stopping you. Just don’t tell me if I’m not going to do the same it’s because I don’t have a clue.

I view Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg as orders of magnitude more valuable to a franchise than Troy Stecher and Jake Virtanen.

Agree to disagree.

 

[MS]

You’re free to continue to be perpetually outraged, nobody is stopping you. Just don’t tell me if I’m not going to do the same it’s because I don’t have a clue.

Taking personal shots is the last resort of people with no argument and nothing to contribute who have lost an argument.

I personally want very badly to see this team win a Cup, and have very high standards and expectations for the competence of management. If you're content being a pom-pom waiver for GM who takes 6 years to finish in 16 place and puts the team in cap hell in the process, fill your boots.

I view Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg as orders of magnitude more valuable to a franchise than Troy Stecher and Jake Virtanen.

Agree to disagree.

If 2010 Kris Versteeg is 'orders of magnitude' better than 2020 Jake Virtanen, that should be really easy to prove and provide evidence for.

 

[Peter10]

You’re free to continue to be perpetually outraged, nobody is stopping you. Just don’t tell me if I’m not going to do the same it’s because I don’t have a clue.

I view Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg as orders of magnitude more valuable to a franchise than Troy Stecher and Jake Virtanen.

Agree to disagree.

What a difference a few weeks make. Not too long ago you thought Virtanen is a top 6 player. Wonder what happened.

Virtanen looks to have turned a corner and ready for a top 6 role. That production from the previous 3 years was with limited minutes, and little opportunity on the PP.

...

 

[MS]

What a difference a few weeks make. Not too long ago you thought Virtanen is a top 6 player. Wonder what happened.

LOL, that's gold. You can't make this stuff up.

 

[sting101]

Michael Ferland was a solid 25-point 3rd liner a couple years ago who had his production laughably inflated by his linemates in Calgary/Carolina. Then his body started breaking down and he had 1 goal in his last 35 games before he was injured.

Loui Eriksson used to be a good player, too. Brandon Sutter was really solid for us in 17-18. Both players suck now, and so does Ferland.

Don't think i would go that far yet.

Ferland is a pretty unique player. Saw him live a bunch during the 3 seasons when he was getting playing time with Carolina and Calgary's top units and i came away really impressed. I remember thinking how much i hate this punk after 2015 and what a joke he was on the top line at first but by the end of almost all of those games i was impressed by his step and his hands. Kid could really have an impact down low, turning pucks over and creating space and he could keep up and create havoc around the net.

He definitely is a complementary guy in the top6 that is there to do heavy lifting and have a net and fore checking presence. But even as a 3rd liner if he can get back healthy he will be a force to be reckoned with in a 7 game series. It's kinda like how the Wild fans are already preparing us for hating Foligno by the time it's done. Ferland can have that effect. He has been a pretty impressive skater and at 28 he still should have some wheels left to get in and be a pain.

He has a lot to prove and this season has been a disaster

 

[MS]

Don't think i would go that far yet.

Ferland is a pretty unique player. Saw him live a bunch during the 3 seasons when he was getting playing time with Carolina and Calgary's top units and i came away really impressed. I remember thinking how much i hate this punk after 2015 and what a joke he was on the top line at first but by the end of almost all of those games i was impressed by his step and his hands. Kid could really have an impact down low and with turning pucks over and creating space and he could keep up and create havoc around the net.

He definitely is a complementary guy in the top6 that is there to do heavy lifting and have a net and fore checking presence. But even as a 3rd liner if he can get back healthy he will be a force to be reckoned with in a 7 game series. It's kinda like how the Wild fans are already preparing us for hating Foligno by the time it's done. Ferland can have that effect. He has been a pretty impressive skater and at 28 he still should have some wheels left to get in and be a pain.

He has a lot to prove and this season has been a disaster

I have nothing bad to say about the Ferland of a couple years ago, and would be stoked to have that player on our team for this play-in series. He was one of the better physical bottom-6 forwards in the league (although never as physical again as in the 2015 playoffs - that was an outlier) and a solid player I would have been glad to have on my team.

And then his body started to fall apart, and he was useless in the back half of 18-19 with Carolina and picked up right where he left off here. I'd love to be wrong ... but his motor and skating looks extremely broken, and will he ever be useful physically again after his concussion issues?

Like, I actually thought Sutter did a really solid job in 17-18 for us. But then after his abdominal injuries his skating has gone into the toilet. And he just isn't the same player he was before despite not being that old. Same thing with Ferland. Injuries can wreck players, and you need to be very careful signing guys with red flags to term as UFAs.

 

[m9]

What a difference a few weeks make. Not too long ago you thought Virtanen is a top 6 player. Wonder what happened.

I don't know the context, but I'll guess:

When defending Benning's drafting - Virtanen looks like a top 6 guy

When defending Benning's cap management causing him to be traded - Virtanen looks like a 4th liner

 

[Hoghandler]

What a difference a few weeks make. Not too long ago you thought Virtanen is a top 6 player. Wonder what happened.

Nothing happened. He produced like one this season. He’s still below Toffoli and Boeser on the depth chart, Leivo too based on what Green thinks.

If Toffoli isn’t retained, I have no problem keeping Virtanen to fight for the 2nd line RW position. If Toffoli is retained, it makes Jake expendable.

If Virtanen is dealt, it’s not because he is a poor player. It’s because RW is the organizations deepest position. Look at the assets they’ve used to build this area up.

6th pick - Virtanen
10th overall pick - Podkolzin
23rd overall pick - Boeser
Madden, 2nd rd pick - Toffoli
33rd overall pick - Lind

If you’re going to draft best player available, you need to realize it will likely lead to deals down the road to balance your roster. That’s where the Canucks are at.

I also think they should be exploring a Boeser trade. Doesn’t mean I don’t think he’s a good player. It’s because of the depth chart.

 

[Hoghandler]

If 2010 Kris Versteeg is 'orders of magnitude' better than 2020 Jake Virtanen, that should be really easy to prove and provide evidence for.

You want me to provide evidence for why 10 years from now when we look back at the loss of Troy Stecher and Jake Virtanen we’re not going to equate it to when the Hawks lost Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg?

You win. It’s the same thing.

 

[MS]

Nothing happened. He produced like one this season. He’s still below Toffoli and Boeser on the depth chart, Leivo too based on what Green thinks.

If Toffoli isn’t retained, I have no problem keeping Virtanen to fight for the 2nd line RW position. If Toffoli is retained, it makes Jake expendable.

If Virtanen is dealt, it’s not because he is a poor player. It’s because RW is the organizations deepest position. Look at the assets they’ve used to build this area up.

6th pick - Virtanen
10th overall pick - Podkolzin
23rd overall pick - Boeser
Madden, 2nd rd pick - Toffoli
33rd overall pick - Lind

If you’re going to draft best player available, you need to realize it will likely lead to deals down the road to balance your roster. That’s where the Canucks are at.

I also think they should be exploring a Boeser trade. Doesn’t mean I don’t think he’s a good player. It’s because of the depth chart.

No matter how hard you try to deny it, going from trying to sell Jake Virtanen as a top-6 forward whose production you expect to increase from the 45 point pace he scored at this season with more icetime to a 'fungible bottom-roster asset' who is 'orders of magnitude worse' than Kris Versteeg when Versteeg was scoring 45 points with more PP time at the same age ... is an absolute epic flip-flop. Embarrassing.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Ferland is trash, was trash in Carolina and performed exactly as expected here, trash. Then got a predictable concussion, so basically everything that many were saying before our genius GM signed him to a bigger deal than any other gm was willing.


Yeah he was a monster against us in Calgary, that was a long time ago.
Since then its been obvious that he's dragging down top lines, not contributing to them.

 

[Hoghandler]

No matter how hard you try to deny it, going from trying to sell Jake Virtanen as a top-6 forward whose production you expect to increase from the 45 point pace he scored at this season with more icetime to a 'fungible bottom-roster asset' who is 'orders of magnitude worse' than Kris Versteeg when Versteeg was scoring 45 points with more PP time at the same age ... is an absolute epic flip-flop. Embarrassing.

Another straw-man?

Tell me with a straight face 10 years from now the loss of Stecher and Virtanen will equate to the Hawks losing Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg.

Say it and you win.

 

[Peter10]

Another straw-man?

Tell me with a straight face 10 years from now the loss of Stecher and Virtanen will equate to the Hawks losing Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg.

Say it and you win.

You dont want to get it, do you?

The Virtanen you described in that trade offer topic is just as good or likely better than Ladd and Versteeg were back in the time but here you say that both are heads and shoulder above Virtanen.

 

[sting101]

I have nothing bad to say about the Ferland of a couple years ago, and would be stoked to have that player on our team for this play-in series. He was one of the better physical bottom-6 forwards in the league (although never as physical again as in the 2015 playoffs - that was an outlier) and a solid player I would have been glad to have on my team.

And then his body started to fall apart, and he was useless in the back half of 18-19 with Carolina and picked up right where he left off here. I'd love to be wrong ... but his motor and skating looks extremely broken, and will he ever be useful physically again after his concussion issues?

Like, I actually thought Sutter did a really solid job in 17-18 for us. But then after his abdominal injuries his skating has gone into the toilet. And he just isn't the same player he was before despite not being that old. Same thing with Ferland. Injuries can wreck players, and you need to be very careful signing guys with red flags to term as UFAs.

Agree on Sutter. His groin is done over any kind of stretch and is 31 now. Has no push which used to be an asset for him

I didn't see Ferland enough in Carolina to have a good read on his downward spiral. His skating still looks like it can get there and Carolina fans seemed to like him a lot but acknowledged his struggles once off the TT Aho line and the concussions took effect.

I think he could still play if it came together soon. I'm beyond counting on it though

 

[Hoghandler]

You dont want to get it, do you?

The Virtanen you described in that trade offer topic is just as good or likely better than Ladd and Versteeg were back in the time but here you say that both are heads and shoulder above Virtanen.

No, I never compared Virtanen to Versteeg. Not once.

I explicitly stated Stecher and Virtanen does not equate to Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg. Not even in the same stratosphere to be frank.

If you disagree with that, speak up.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Baertschi is a better NHL player than Ferland.

 

[MS]

Another straw-man?

You don't seem to understand what a strawman is.

When it fit your Benning agenda to have Virtanen be an exciting young top-6 forward, that's what he was. But when suddenly bad things are happening and it fits your Benning agenda to have the players we could be losing as a result of Benning's mismanagement be unimportant and crap, Virtanen is a bottom-roster player! Fungible! Might not even be in the lineup!

We get it. You aren't a Canucks fan. You're a Benning fan. You aren't here to have honest discussion, you're here to shill for Benning. And it's entertaining as hell watching the mental gymnastics as you contradict yourself based on what the best pro-Benning argument might be today.

Tell me with a straight face 10 years from now the loss of Stecher and Virtanen will equate to the Hawks losing Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg.

Say it and you win.

I have absolutely no idea what point you're trying to make here. Losing those players in 2009 would have cost Chicago a Cup, something which is unlikely to happen here. The whole point of the comparison was that I was granting the Benning lovers the best-case scenario for our young core, and showing the potential impact of losing the depth around them.

The fact that we are not as good as Chicago at that point and less likely to win a Cup next year doesn't somehow magically make it a good idea to be dumping roughly equivalent players to bail out management for their incompetence.

 

[MS]

No, I never compared Virtanen to Versteeg. Not once.

I explicitly stated Stecher and Virtanen does not equate to Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg. Not even in the same stratosphere to be frank.

If you disagree with that, speak up.

Speaking of strawmen, I never mentioned Ladd once.

 

[Hoghandler]

When it fit your Benning agenda to have Virtanen be an exciting young top-6 forward, that's what he was. But when suddenly bad things are happening and it fits your Benning agenda to have the players we could be losing as a result of Benning's mismanagement be unimportant and crap, Virtanen is a bottom-roster player! Fungible! Might not even be in the lineup!

We get it. You aren't a Canucks fan. You're a Benning fan. You aren't here to have honest discussion, you're here to shill for Benning. And it's entertaining as hell watching the mental gymnastics as you contradict yourself based on what the best pro-Benning argument might be today.



I have absolutely no idea what point you're trying to make here.

Yeah, downplaying a player Benning used a 6th overall pick on is going to make Benning look good. Think for a moment how stupid that sounds. Downplaying Virtanen makes Benning look worse, not better.

And you know damn well the point I’m making here. Equating the loss of Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg with the Canucks losing Stecher and Virtanen is just an awful comparison.

Looking at moving a RW’er in Virtanen or Boeser is due to the depth chart. A depth chart stacked on the right side. I have made this abundantly clear from the beginning.

 

[Peter10]

Yeah, downplaying a player Benning used a 6th overall pick on is going to make Benning look good. Think for a moment how stupid that sounds. Downplaying Virtanen makes Benning look worse, not better.

And you know damn well the point I’m making here. Equating the loss of Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg with the Canucks losing Stecher and Virtanen is just an awful comparison.

Looking at moving a RW’er in Virtanen or Boeser is due to the depth chart. A depth chart stacked on the right side. I have made this abundantly clear from the beginning.

Is Virtanen a top 6 player or a bottom 6 player?

 

[Bleach Clean]

You want me to provide evidence for why 10 years from now when we look back at the loss of Troy Stecher and Jake Virtanen we’re not going to equate it to when the Hawks lost Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg?

You win. It’s the same thing.

What does the loss of Boeser look like 10 years from now?

Your spurious rationale can justify any non-Pettersson or non-Hughes move. That's the mark of poor logic. Any player can move, for whatever reason, so long as the centre pieces stay intact. Is that the gist of it?

 

[MS]

Yeah, downplaying a player Benning used a 6th overall pick on is going to make Benning look good. Think for a moment how stupid that sounds. Downplaying Virtanen makes Benning look worse, not better.

Downplaying that pick who is already considered kinda disappointing is a lot better than admitting that Benning's bungling is forcing the team to give away young top-6 forwards to get rid of his bad contracts, yes.

Same thing you did with Tyler Madden incidentally. Overnight went from a great prospect to a too-thin longshot who was probably never going to play for us, days after you were saying we should trade Gaudette to make room for Madden.

And you know damn well the point I’m making here. Equating the loss of Byfuglien, Ladd and Versteeg with the Canucks losing Stecher and Virtanen is just an awful comparison.

I have never made any sort of 3-for-2 comparison. I said that losing Stecher and Virtanen would be comparable to Chicago losing players of the ilk of Byfuglien and Versteeg in 2009. And it is.

Looking at moving a RW’er in Virtanen or Boeser is due to the depth chart. A depth chart stacked on the right side. I have made this abundantly clear from the beginning.

And if you consider Jake Virtanen be a top-6 forward, you should be extremely upset to be wasting that asset getting the team out of cap hell caused by stupid contracts.

 

[Hoghandler]

Is Virtanen a top 6 player or a bottom 6 player?

On a team with Boeser and Toffoli? 3rd line. If one of those 2 aren’t here next here he would have a chance to compete for that spot. Could he play in the top 6 on a bunch of NHL teams? I would think so.