2020 Roster and Fantasy GM Thread II

[Bettman Returnz]

How nice would’ve been to include baertschi into the deal for toffoli (instead of schaller)... even if we ate 50% of his contract.

 

[Hoghandler]

All the calculations are there, it's under the cap. Not sure it's a smart roster long-term, but for next season it looks good.

So you’re saying all this team needs to do to fit their 3 big UFA’s under the cap is deal Sutter, Baertschi and Virtanen?

That shouldn’t be very difficult at all. If that’s true, why all the hand wringing about the cap?

 

[m9]

So you’re saying all this team needs to do to fit their 3 big UFA’s under the cap is deal Sutter, Baertschi and Virtanen?

That shouldn’t be very difficult at all. If that’s true, why all the hand wringing about the cap?

I just don't think people have confidence in this management group to make it happen. There are definitely ways for them to have a successful off-season, we'll see if they can pull it off.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Loui Eriksson and Adam Gaudette
for
Andrew Cogliano, Stephen Johns, Radek Faksa

Canucks buyout Cogs and Johns as soon as they can.

Cogliano's buyout costs $2,166,667 cash, Johns buyout costs $1,366,667.

So Dallas gets Loui for $1,466,666 cash or $733,333 a year which is basically league min

Canucks save $3,933,334 this year and $4,233,334 next year

Both Gaudette and Faksa are RFA likely to get around 2-2.5, Canucks get the defensive checking center, Dallas gets a potential 2nd line center.

Gaudette, Virtanen, Demko and even Rafferty are what it will take to move these bad deals. In that sense, your premise is sound. The optics of doing so will be eye opening though, I think.

People can talk about it not meaning much in the end. Much like how they probably said cap space didn’t matter until now, but this avenue will gut quality depth now and in the future. That’s markedly different from just dealing futures.

If it comes to Toffoli or Markstrom walking off they don’t do this, then they should just allow them to walk. Don’t compound the problem.

 

[Hoghandler]

I just don't think people have confidence in this management group to make it happen. There are definitely ways for them to have a successful off-season, we'll see if they can pull it off.

Management hasn’t earned the benefit of the doubt in sound cap practices, but it sure doesn’t look like cap Armageddon when All you need to do to sign the big 3 is move a Baertschi and Sutter, a pair of pending UFA’s.

No reason to believe that would be all that difficult if you’re dangling Virtanen and Demko. If the Canucks re-sign Markstrom, Demko should be dealt regardless of the cap situation. Virtanen as well is a guy I would be looking to deal, regardless of the cap.

 

[MS]

This thing where it’s no big deal that we gut all our mid-level depth (Virtanen, Stecher, Demko, Tanev, Tryamkin return) to get under the cap and replace it with rookies sounds eerily familiar to when it was no big deal that we gutted Richardson/Matthias/Kassian/Bieksa in 2015 and shuffled unready kids into the roster in their place.

 

[sting101]

Yes anytime you lose a value asset that should net you a pick in the top 100 of a draft that is and could be a very big deal.

 

[MS]

Yes anytime you lose a value asset that should net you a pick in the top 100 of a draft that is and could be a very big deal.

I think people are woefully underrating their level of value (performance to salary) we received last year from Virtanen and Stecher in particular.

Outside of Pettersson/Hughes/Horvat, these sort of younger mid-level assets out-performing their contracts are the absolute last assets we should be moving.

 

[m9]

I think people are woefully underrating their level of value (performance to salary) we received last year from Virtanen and Stecher in particular.

Outside of Pettersson/Hughes/Horvat, these sort of younger mid-level assets out-performing their contracts are the absolute last assets we should be moving.

Well for those two players in particular, those contracts are over which changes the situation a bit as they will likely get paid closer to their actual performance. Virtanen in particular is a guy who could easily under-perform his next contract if it's in the 3 million range and he stays in a 3rd line role.

Stecher is a bit different case to me. Having at least 5 defensemen capable of playing those heavy top-four minutes is very important to a team trying to be a contender. Going cheap on the 3rd pairing and then having Hughes, Tanev, or Edler go down early in the season would likely be a disaster. Keeping 3rd/4th line depth players instead of capable defensemen like Stecher will likely end up a mistake.

 

[MS]

Well for those two players in particular, those contracts are over which changes the situation a bit as they will likely get paid closer to their actual performance. Virtanen in particular is a guy who could easily under-perform his next contract if it's in the 3 million range and he stays in a 3rd line role.

Stecher is a bit different case to me. Having at least 5 defensemen capable of playing those heavy top-four minutes is very important to a team trying to be a contender. Going cheap on the 3rd pairing and then having Hughes, Tanev, or Edler go down early in the season would likely be a disaster. Keeping 3rd/4th line depth players instead of capable defensemen like Stecher will likely end up a mistake.

I'd think you could probably use some of Virtanen's indiscretions/inconsistency to leverage him into the $2.5 million range which is still an absolute bargain for a young guy who was scoring at a 45 point pace from 13 minutes/game last year.

Stecher ... yeah. Somehow paying $2 million for Jordie Benn to be junk is OK but $2.3 million is way too much for a guy like Stecher who kills it in #5 minutes. If you can resign him in the $2.5 range that's an absolute, slam-dunk, no brainer. Plus if Tanev is gone we're going to need a RHS defender who can kill penalties.

Also, these are the only two local players on the team ... which kind of matters.

 

[tradervik]

Loui Eriksson and Adam Gaudette
for
Andrew Cogliano, Stephen Johns, Radek Faksa

Canucks buyout Cogs and Johns as soon as they can.

Cogliano's buyout costs $2,166,667 cash, Johns buyout costs $1,366,667.

So Dallas gets Loui for $1,466,666 cash or $733,333 a year which is basically league min

Canucks save $3,933,334 this year and $4,233,334 next year

Both Gaudette and Faksa are RFA likely to get around 2-2.5, Canucks get the defensive checking center, Dallas gets a potential 2nd line center.

Interesting idea but I don't think Dallas would go for it. They have cap issues of their own and this trade makes their situation worse (assuming you're correct about the nearly equivalent cap hits for the Gaudette and Faksa extensions).

From a Canucks perspective, the thing I don't like is using buyouts. Sure you get some cap space for the 20/21 season but you reduce cap space for 21/22 when Hughes and Pettersson will need new contracts.

I don't have much of an opinion on Faksa but he seems like the type of player who would be a better fit as a third line centre than Gaudette. Although they're the same age, Gaudette has a lot less NHL experience and seems to have more upside. Another factor is that Gaudette doesn't have arbitration rights and cannot be offer-sheeted. I believe the Canucks can extend him for less than you think.

 

[VanJack]

Eklund is reporting that at least four teams have expressed serious interest in Canucks backup goalie Thatcher Demko.

I wonder if it's something the Canucks would consider, particularly if they could package him with a bad contract and acquire draft picks back?. If the Canucks re-sign Markstrom, it'll be a minimum of a five-year deal. Demko would wither on the vine as a 'back-up' goalie.

Eklund's piece says that four teams--the Oilers, Leafs, Sabres and Wings--are in on Demko. Can't see a real fit with TO, and doubt they'd ever trade Demko to a division rival. So that leaves the Sabres and Wings.

Detroit is my bet. Lots of draft picks stockpiled and oodles to cap space to take on a bad contract like Eriksson's.

I realize it's only 'Eklund'....but when you step back and really analyze it, there's a kernel of sense in it.

 

[Hoghandler]

Well for those two players in particular, those contracts are over which changes the situation a bit as they will likely get paid closer to their actual performance. Virtanen in particular is a guy who could easily under-perform his next contract if it's in the 3 million range and he stays in a 3rd line role.

Stecher is a bit different case to me. Having at least 5 defensemen capable of playing those heavy top-four minutes is very important to a team trying to be a contender. Going cheap on the 3rd pairing and then having Hughes, Tanev, or Edler go down early in the season would likely be a disaster. Keeping 3rd/4th line depth players instead of capable defensemen like Stecher will likely end up a mistake.

Bingo.

Regardless of the cap, I wouldn’t have been looking to bring Stecher or Virtanen back next season. IMO Leivo is a better fit at 3 RW alongside Gaudette, and should provide better value as well.

Also no interest in penciling in 3, 5’10 dmen in the roster for next year.

If the flat cap cost the Canucks a Markstrom, Toffoli or Tanev, that’s a different story. That would be impactful. If we are talking about shuffling fungible, bottom of the roster players, not concerned in the least.

 

[sting101]

I'm not sure why everyone keeps making all these proposals that involve giving up an asset to acquire cap space like it's the only option

Basically we have the capability of bringing back 2 out of 3 in Markstrom Toffoli and Tanev without doing anything other than maybe having to buy out Sutter if no one takes him or Baertschi off our hands. Or there is also the distinct possibility if these playoffs or camp goes poorly for Ferland that he may have to retire and go on permanent LTIR although that one is highly questionable currently.

Toffoli was a rental and we don't even know if he has any interest in being a Canuck or having reasonable negotiations before going to free agency.

Personally would love him to round out what would be a formidable top 6 but we do have Podkolzin coming and Josh Leivo if he can recover fully gives us a nice stop gap who was on pace for 16 goals and 43 pts prior to his injury with MacEwen and Virtanen also able to fill in for stretches. Cannot be ignorant to the fact that 2nd line wingers who are below average skaters like Toffoli with some hard playoff miles tend to drop at around 28 which could easily see him as a drain and block on cheaper hungry fast young players in short order. This is not the time to inject about the other poor contracts done. You have to look at moves in fluidity and does Toffoli really make sense in that it costs you Tanev and/or a FA trade acquisition that can help the defense.

Tanev is also a concern if he wants term. Would be dumb to lock up 4.5 to 5 million on a one dimensional (yes a very good one dimensional) but still about to be 31yr old with a history of missing 30-40% of the games due to fragility. Haven't heard much yet on what his demands look like so will reserve judgement on what to do there.

Markstrom is a no brainer. Hopefully he keeps his term and AAV below 6 million and 6yrs

 

[MS]

I'm not sure why everyone keeps making all these proposals that involve giving up an asset to acquire cap space like it's the only option

Basically we have the capability of bringing back 2 out of 3 in Markstrom Toffoli and Tanev without doing anything other than maybe having to buy out Sutter if no one takes him or Baertschi off our hands. Or there is also the distinct possibility if these playoffs or camp goes poorly for Ferland that he may have to retire and go on permanent LTIR although that one is highly questionable currently.

Toffoli was a rental and we don't even know if he has any interest in being a Canuck or having reasonable negotiations before going to free agency.

Personally would love him to round out what would be a formidable top 6 but we do have Podkolzin coming and Josh Leivo if he can recover fully gives us a nice stop gap who was on pace for 16 goals and 43 pts prior to his injury with MacEwen and Virtanen also able to fill in for stretches. Cannot be ignorant to the fact that 2nd line wingers who are below average skaters like Toffoli with some hard playoff miles tend to drop at around 28 which could easily see him as a drain and block on cheaper hungry fast young players in short order. This is not the time to inject about the other poor contracts done. You have to look at moves in fluidity and does Toffoli really make sense in that it costs you Tanev and/or a FA trade acquisition that can help the defense.

Tanev is also a concern if he wants term. Would be dumb to lock up 4.5 to 5 million on a one dimensional (yes a very good one dimensional) but still about to be 31yr old with a history of missing 30-40% of the games due to fragility. Haven't heard much yet on what his demands look like so will reserve judgement on what to do there.

Markstrom is a no brainer. Hopefully he keeps his term and AAV below 6 million and 6yrs

I agree completely.

Toffoli is a nice enough player, but shouldn't be a high priority and definitely shouldn't be someone we're giving a retirement contract to. Shift Adam Gaudette to wing and throw him in that roster spot and he'll probably score 50 points and we're just fine. This team can score goals - the priority should be shoring up what was already a porous defense last year, not gutting quality defensive players to save Toffoli.

 

[MS]

Bingo.

Regardless of the cap, I wouldn’t have been looking to bring Stecher or Virtanen back next season. IMO Leivo is a better fit at 3 RW alongside Gaudette, and should provide better value as well.

Also no interest in penciling in 3, 5’10 dmen in the roster for next year.

If the flat cap cost the Canucks a Markstrom, Toffoli or Tanev, that’s a different story. That would be impactful. If we are talking about shuffling fungible, bottom of the roster players, not concerned in the least.

Fungible, bottom-roster players are guys like Beagle, Motte, Roussel, Fantenberg, Benn. Not a young winger who just had a breakout season and scored at a 45-point pace.

Again, imagine if the 2009 Blackhawks instead of signing Marian Hossa, not only didn't sign Hossa but were forced to gut a pile of Versteeg/Byfuglien/Hjalmarsson-level assets because the GM had signed $30 million in bad contracts. How do you think that team turns out? What kind of management is that? How would that GM be judged?

This team, had it been managed well, should be in a position to be chasing a Pietrangelo or Hall this summer to try and move toward being a contender. Instead we're going to be gutting assets and taking a step back. It's indefensible.

 

[Hoghandler]

It’s good to see what the absolute toughest cap situation could look like though. I was assuming it was much worse if the big 3 were all signed. Even before Toffoli was traded for and the cap was expected to go up by a few million dollars many were saying the Canucks weren’t going to be able to retain Markstrom and Tanev without major moves having to occur.

You are right though, there is a chance Toffoli isn’t interested in signing. If that happens, so much for ‘cap hell’.

I still maintain we also could be pencilling in Markstrom, Tanev and Toffoli at the top of the ranges they will sign at, if not higher. This could be a devastating year for agents and UFA’s. Not sure there are going to be many bidding wars going on, save a Pietrangelo/Hall.

 

[m9]

I'd think you could probably use some of Virtanen's indiscretions/inconsistency to leverage him into the $2.5 million range which is still an absolute bargain for a young guy who was scoring at a 45 point pace from 13 minutes/game last year.

Stecher ... yeah. Somehow paying $2 million for Jordie Benn to be junk is OK but $2.3 million is way too much for a guy like Stecher who kills it in #5 minutes. If you can resign him in the $2.5 range that's an absolute, slam-dunk, no brainer. Plus if Tanev is gone we're going to need a RHS defender who can kill penalties.

Also, these are the only two local players on the team ... which kind of matters.

I am probably just lower on Virtanen than most. I see him as a pretty replaceable guy in the bottom six and therefore he would be a good target to gain some value from in a deal.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Loui Eriksson and Adam Gaudette
for
Andrew Cogliano, Stephen Johns, Radek Faksa

Canucks buyout Cogs and Johns as soon as they can.

Cogliano's buyout costs $2,166,667 cash, Johns buyout costs $1,366,667.

So Dallas gets Loui for $1,466,666 cash or $733,333 a year which is basically league min

Canucks save $3,933,334 this year and $4,233,334 next year

Both Gaudette and Faksa are RFA likely to get around 2-2.5, Canucks get the defensive checking center, Dallas gets a potential 2nd line center.

This is a great proposal - really like it. Faksa is an excellent target, Stars fans know how good he is defensively however so who knows if the organization would move him.

 

[m9]

I'm not sure why everyone keeps making all these proposals that involve giving up an asset to acquire cap space like it's the only option

Basically we have the capability of bringing back 2 out of 3 in Markstrom Toffoli and Tanev without doing anything other than maybe having to buy out Sutter if no one takes him or Baertschi off our hands. Or there is also the distinct possibility if these playoffs or camp goes poorly for Ferland that he may have to retire and go on permanent LTIR although that one is highly questionable currently.

Toffoli was a rental and we don't even know if he has any interest in being a Canuck or having reasonable negotiations before going to free agency.

Personally would love him to round out what would be a formidable top 6 but we do have Podkolzin coming and Josh Leivo if he can recover fully gives us a nice stop gap who was on pace for 16 goals and 43 pts prior to his injury with MacEwen and Virtanen also able to fill in for stretches. Cannot be ignorant to the fact that 2nd line wingers who are below average skaters like Toffoli with some hard playoff miles tend to drop at around 28 which could easily see him as a drain and block on cheaper hungry fast young players in short order. This is not the time to inject about the other poor contracts done. You have to look at moves in fluidity and does Toffoli really make sense in that it costs you Tanev and/or a FA trade acquisition that can help the defense.

Tanev is also a concern if he wants term. Would be dumb to lock up 4.5 to 5 million on a one dimensional (yes a very good one dimensional) but still about to be 31yr old with a history of missing 30-40% of the games due to fragility. Haven't heard much yet on what his demands look like so will reserve judgement on what to do there.

Markstrom is a no brainer. Hopefully he keeps his term and AAV below 6 million and 6yrs

For myself in particular, I like throwing out a few cap-compliant rosters to see how things look depending what direction management decides to go. Signing Toffoli/Markstrom/Tanev/Stecher while moving Virtanen & Demko to help alleviate cap would be an "all-in" approach where they try to field the best roster next year. Not what I would do, but just looking at options.

 

[Hoghandler]

Fungible, bottom-roster players are guys like Beagle, Motte, Roussel, Fantenberg, Benn. Not a young winger who just had a breakout season and scored at a 45-point pace.

Again, imagine if the 2009 Blackhawks instead of signing Marian Hossa, not only didn't sign Hossa but were forced to gut a pile of Versteeg/Byfuglien/Hjalmarsson-level assets because the GM had signed $30 million in bad contracts. How do you think that team turns out? What kind of management is that? How would that GM be judged?

This team, had it been managed well, should be in a position to be chasing a Pietrangelo or Hall this summer to try and move toward being a contender. Instead we're going to be gutting assets and taking a step back. It's indefensible.

Fungible, bottom-roster players are guys like Beagle, Motte, Roussel, Fantenberg, Benn. Not a young winger who just had a breakout season and scored at a 45-point pace.

Again, imagine if the 2009 Blackhawks instead of signing Marian Hossa, not only didn't sign Hossa but were forced to gut a pile of Versteeg/Byfuglien/Hjalmarsson-level assets because the GM had signed $30 million in bad contracts. How do you think that team turns out? What kind of management is that? How would that GM be judged?

This team, had it been managed well, should be in a position to be chasing a Pietrangelo or Hall this summer to try and move toward being a contender. Instead we're going to be gutting assets and taking a step back. It's indefensible.

With a fully healthy roster, Jake Virtanen is likely fighting for his life to even get into a post season lineup right now. Productive player this season, but at a position the club is exceptionally deep at.

You’re making the mistake of thinking poor contracts is the only reason this team has a lot of money on the books. The biggest reason the cap is so tight is because Benning has already gone out and acquired his Hossa and co. We brought in Miller, Toffoli, Pearson and Ferland. 4 top 6 wingers in the course of 1 year.

The contract work has been poor. But let’s not lose sight of the fact the forward group is very skilled, very deep and well put together. There is little need to add to that current group - if anything, they should be subtracting a couple good forwards.

 

[MS]

This is a great proposal - really like it. Faksa is an excellent target, Stars fans know how good he is defensively however so who knows if the organization would move him.

Why would Dallas do this?

Gaudette for Faksa is probably a fairly even swap so they’re basically just doing us a favour.

They’re a rich team who wants to compete who would be willing to spend more money up front to create more cap space, and this involves them doing the exact opposite - giving up cap space to save money.

 

[Peter10]

With a fully healthy roster, Jake Virtanen is likely fighting for his life to even get into a post season lineup right now. Productive player this season, but at a position the club is exceptionally deep at.

You’re making the mistake of thinking poor contracts is the only reason this team has a lot of money on the books. The biggest reason the cap is so tight is because Benning has already gone out and acquired his Hossa and co. We brought in Miller, Toffoli, Pearson and Ferland. 4 top 6 wingers in the course of 1 year.

The contract work has been poor. But let’s not lose sight of the fact the forward group is very skilled, very deep and well put together. There is little need to add to that current group - if anything, they should be subtracting a couple good forwards.

Toffoli is a UFA, Pearson will be next year, Ferland is damaged goods.... but yeah plan the parade.

 

[MS]

With a fully healthy roster, Jake Virtanen is likely fighting for his life to even get into a post season lineup right now. Productive player this season, but at a position the club is exceptionally deep at.

LOL. Virtanen is our 5th-best winger behind Miller, Boeser, Toffoli, and Pearson. What, would he be playing behind Ferland who has 1 goal in his last 35 games? Eriksson? Motte?

You’re making the mistake of thinking poor contracts is the only reason this team has a lot of money on the books. The biggest reason the cap is so tight is because Benning has already gone out and acquired his Hossa and co. We brought in Miller, Toffoli, Pearson and Ferland. 4 top 6 wingers in the course of 1 year.

Chicago had already brought in Khabibulin and Campbell, so that argument is rubbish.

Equating Hossa with Pearson and Ferland is ... special.

The contract work has been poor. But let’s not lose sight of the fact the forward group is very skilled, very deep and well put together. There is little need to add to that current group - if anything, they should be subtracting a couple good forwards.

You win by having three lines that can score, not by dismantling one of those lines to get under the cap and account for management incompetence.

 

[Hoghandler]

LOL. Virtanen is our 5th-best winger behind Miller, Boeser, Toffoli, and Pearson. What, would he be playing behind Ferland who has 1 goal in his last 35 games? Eriksson? Motte?

Equating Hossa with Pearson and Ferland is ... special.

Boeser, Toffoli and Leivo were higher on the RW depth chart this season than Jake. A healthy roster likely leaves Jake outside the top 9, which is where he was to finish the year, playing on the 4th line with Jay Beagle - And that’s with Ferland on IR. Then you have Green with an eye on how many penalty killers he has at his disposal, which hurts Virtanen.

As to the 2nd point, is that a straw-man, or are you completely clueless? J.T. Miller is being equated to Marian Hossa. You know, the guy we just traded for that came in and was a two-way beast that was arguably the clubs MVP...