2020 Roster and Fantasy GM Thread II

[sting101]

& it seems you are letting your fantasy get to you.

Wild Legit have no c & it a fact. That aren't trading a good young shut down c & lottery c in Ek. You can say it a million times I don't speak for wild organization , but it's a fact

Go away.

Your proposals are bad on a neutral thread let alone as an outsider

 

[sting101]

Werenski wasn't in the 2013 draft

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I'm a big fan of Morrisey, I'm just a bigger fan of Horvat. I think a Cup winning team needs Horvat more than either of those dmen and far far more than monahan.

Edit. I probably have the that draft class top 10 like so
1. MacKinnon
2. Barkov
3. Seth Jones
4. Werenski
5. Guentzel
6. Horvat
7. Morrisey
8. Elias Lindholm
9. Mantha
10. Nurse/Pulock/Theodore

Werenski? He wasn't drafted that year.
Saros, Kubalik and Bertuzzi deserves some honourable mentions. In a couple years once Saros take over the starter position from Rinne, he will rocket up the re-draft list, I bet.

 

[VanillaCoke]

My memory wasn't quite accurate, seems like werenski has been around longer.
Bertuzzi, burakovsky, buchnevic all get Honorable mentions but not in the top 10.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Horvat is not good defensively, is the beneficiary of being on a great pp and has little physical affect on a game. He is a good role model and good on the rush. The arrival of Miller really exposed Horvat's level as a good player but not a difference maker on a good team. He is now team's 5 best positional player behind Boeser, Miller, Petterson and Hughes. Still a good asset.

I just completely disagree, Horvat is basically everything you want in a player, center, and captain! The notion he's bad defensively is a joke, he constantly produces at an excellent rate while being matched up with the oppositions best players! So much so that the team tried to force him into a shutdown role and he kept producing too well to be put down. He's definitely a contender for the selke or will be before long, and scores more than enough for the linemates he gets.

Boeser or Miller are nowhere near better than Horvat, Horvat oozes leadership and even of you want to give him the PP excuse, he STILL produces. So hes clearly justifiably a top pp guy. JT is a winger who also would be benefitting from that same PP and a top tier 1C in EP. It's not coincidence theyre both having career years beside EP.
Horvat is approaching toews calibre and is the type of lead by example captain that championships are earned with.

That's one way of seeing it, sure. Here's another:

- Boeser was actually treated as this team's 5th best option. Horvat's assignments and QoC lend credence to this.
- Miller performed at a 1st liner. Horvat has always been a high end 2C or frinnge 1C.
- Horvat's usage works against his numbers.
- How easy is it to produce at a 63 point pace from the 2C position? Deserves some study.

(Players that finished with his P/GP~ this year: Giroux, Hertl, Couture, Larkin, Seguin)

I don't think you are properly weighting Horvat's performance performance relative to his team, or against the baseline of the league.





I like you list.

Mantha vs. Lindholm is a good debate. Werenski and Guentzel ahead of Horvat makes sense.

And agreed on all of this, Horvat is definitely a 1C, not a franchise eichel crosby type but certainly approaching the O'rielly calibre.


With total hindsight I take Lindholm as a versatile two way 1C, or 1RW. Who has proven to be able to put up points with good players. He's definitely the 2nd best fwd on CGY.
But largely because of Mantha's injuries, a totally healthy 82 game Mantha is definitely a ppg + winger. Certainly better than boeser and if he used his size more could be a force.
I think mantha with EP or McDavid tier C is a 90+ pt player.

My mistake on Werenski I didn't quite remember that draft perfectly but Guentzel is unreal tbh and is probably top 3-5 calibre player. I doubt any wingers save Laf out produce Guentzel in this years crop. He definitely benefits from crosby but he produces.

 

[BB06]

Horvat is not good defensively, is the beneficiary of being on a great pp and has little physical affect on a game. He is a good role model and good on the rush. The arrival of Miller really exposed Horvat's level as a good player but not a difference maker on a good team. He is now team's 5 best positional player behind Boeser, Miller, Petterson and Hughes. Still a good asset.

So are we just ignoring last year? Where put up 61 points on a bottom top power play and a revolving door line mates that included Roussel/Sven/Virtanen/Eriksson? Not even factoring he had the some of the toughest usage rate in the NHL.

 

[Diamonddog01]

So are we just ignoring last year? Where put up 61 points on a bottom top power play and a revolving door line mates that included Roussel/Sven/Virtanen/Eriksson? Not even factoring he had the some of the toughest usage rate in the NHL.

Are you making the case that he was good defensively last year? He played far the most minutes with Pearson, who performed as a legitimate 2nd line winger.

I just completely disagree, Horvat is basically everything you want in a player, center, and captain! The notion he's bad defensively is a joke, he constantly produces at an excellent rate while being matched up with the oppositions best players! So much so that the team tried to force him into a shutdown role and he kept producing too well to be put down. He's definitely a contender for the selke or will be before long, and scores more than enough for the linemates he gets.

Boeser or Miller are nowhere near better than Horvat, Horvat oozes leadership and even of you want to give him the PP excuse, he STILL produces. So hes clearly justifiably a top pp guy. JT is a winger who also would be benefitting from that same PP and a top tier 1C in EP. It's not coincidence theyre both having career years beside EP.
Horvat is approaching toews calibre and is the type of lead by example captain that championships are earned with.

And agreed on all of this, Horvat is definitely a 1C, not a franchise eichel crosby type but certainly approaching the O'rielly calibre.

Uh what? This is homerish fanboy nonsense. The statistics, and even eye test, indicate that thinking he's a Selke caliber forward, better than Miller and approaching Toews / O'Rielly's level is ludicrous. He's far, far closer to David Legwand than Toews or O'Rielly.

I know not everyone likes Canucks Army but here's an article on Horvat

Year (So Far) In Review: Bo Horvat’s First Season as Captain

"Below league average when it came to controlling xGA/60 (expected goals against) and CA/60 (Corsi against)"

"More concerning is the 4.3% more xG/60 than league average allowed in his own end. This data from HockeyViz along with the previously RAPM chart clearly shows that Horvat had one of his worst defensive seasons."

So yeah, he had a hard usage rate but he performed poorly in that role (defensively). He is not the two-way player many on here pretend. In terms of leadership we must have been watching completely different games, I saw a guy what was largely silent and invisible half the time when the team needed it most. Meanwhile Miller would be engaged, vocal and leading by example by busting his ass. Thinking that giving guys high-fives at the end of the game is good leadership is laughable.

This player is mindblowingly overrated and was not a great choice for captain imo.

 

[BB06]

Are you making the case that he was good defensively last year? He played far the most minutes with Pearson, who performed as a legitimate 2nd line winger.

Tanner Pearson played 19 games with the Canucks last year. Not even 1/5 of the season ........

 

[Diamonddog01]

Tanner Pearson played 19 games with the Canucks last year. Not even 1/5 of the season ........

Sorry, I think there is some confusion over this year / last year. I'm referring to the 19/20 season.

 

[BB06]

Sorry, I think there is some confusion over this year / last year. I'm referring to the 19/20 season.

Yes I was referring to 18/19 season. Horvat had a slightly down year but was still on pace for 63 points. I'm looking at body of work over the past 2 years. last year he was certainly good defensively and had the hardest assignments of any centre in the NHL while still posting positive results. Not sure if you have a sub to The Athletic but this articles goes into an in depth analytic analysis. Deployed like a defensive dynamo, does Bo Horvat have a...


I'm looking at body of work and not a slightly down season he had this year even though he still produced. Let's not act like he was anchored to Loui either. I personally think he struggled because the workload is far too much and he can't be doing it season after season. Canucks need a 3C just like kesler needed Manny Horvat needs someone to take off some of the load for him too. Sutter and Beagle are way too old and slow.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Yes I was referring to 18/19 season. Horvat had a slightly down year but was still on pace for 63 points. I'm looking at body of work over the past 2 years. last year he was certainly good defensively and had the hardest assignments of any centre in the NHL while still posting positive results. Not sure if you have a sub to The Athletic but this articles goes into an in depth analytic analysis. Deployed like a defensive dynamo, does Bo Horvat have a...

I'm looking at body of work and not a slightly down season he had this year even though he still produced. Let's not act like he was anchored to Loui either. I personally think he struggled because the workload is far too much and he can't be doing it season after season. Canucks need a 3C just like kesler needed Manny Horvat needs someone to take off some of the load for him too. Sutter and Beagle are way too old and slow.

"Slightly down season" is a euphemism, he produces points - no argument there. He's just not the two-way beast many think he is.

Don't have a sub to The Athletic, but we agree on the last point. I definitely feel the team needs a shut-down C which is why I proposed Eriksson Ek (or a player like him before some random Wild fan jumps on me).

 

[dbaz]

Horvats faceoff stats help pad the image hes a good defensive player as youd want him in the dzone taking important faceoffs, but positionally its a bit different. By no ways is he horrible defensively, but hes not selke calibre

 

[Cor]

I hope you are all well.

I find your goalie situation interesting. Markstrom is a pending UFA, and obviously has Demko behind him, and eventually DiPietro.


If Markstrom is kept, do you trade Demko? Or keep him for the year and have Seattle just take him? do you let Markstrom walk and give the reigns to Demko?

What seems to be the likely course for ya’ll?

 

[vancityluongo]

A re-tool around Pettersson and Hughes? Very aggressive. I like it if they get a prime asset back for Horvat.

As stated earlier, I would retain young players. Without them, this team isn’t going anywhere. If that means letting Markstrom walk, that’s what I would do. Likewise, I would not trade youth to get rid of Eriksson either.

Beyond that, just wait out the poor contracts. If the youth is not enough to buoy this team moving forward, then trade Miller before his final year. Possibly even more outside of Pettersson and Hughes.

If they can sign Toffoli without suffering down the line too much, I would do that. Leivo too. This opens up a Virtanen trade for a young dman.

I think we're (collectively) severely underestimating just how much value players like Pettersson and Hughes can/will offer in their age 21 - 25 seasons. And how that value may not be there in the same way after that, especially as they start to get into their UFA years + second post-ELC contracts.

The team has like, a four-year window IMO to make a real run at it. You either need to try and find maximum value now, and hope that everything aligns and the overpaid vets can come through in short stretches (no one would be surprised if Loui went on a streak for a few games), or you need to sell current assets for more future value. That's where Horvat/Miller level players would come in.

 

[m9]

The upcoming window is also a good case why the team is may be best served to give up assets for other teams to take on their bad contracts if it means they can keep their current team intact. Any prospect outside of Podkolzin/Hoglander and any future pick outside the first round could be used to get out of the mess.

 

[Fedz]

I hope you are all well.

I find your goalie situation interesting. Markstrom is a pending UFA, and obviously has Demko behind him, and eventually DiPietro.


If Markstrom is kept, do you trade Demko? Or keep him for the year and have Seattle just take him? do you let Markstrom walk and give the reigns to Demko?

What seems to be the likely course for ya’ll?

I've thought long and hard about this and I think it really comes down to how much Markstrom wants and what kind of term..Really I don't think he holds the power in this negotiation.

If we let him walk, there are multiple goalies on the UFA market that *may* give us just as much as Marky or a little less for a substantially smaller price. 1A-1B that goalie with Demko and we have a plan moving forward.

If we re-sign Markstrom, Demko's value immediately plunges significantly. Teams are going to take advantage in the next year because others will not want to lose players for nothing and don't want to get screwed in trades with Seattle like many did with Vegas.

Notable UFA goalies: Braden Holtby, Thomas Greiss, Corey Crawford, Robin Lehner & Anton Khudobin. The goalie market is full of 1A/1B type goalies that would be a perfect 2-3 year stop gap with Demko that we leave unprotected in the expansion draft.

If we are looking long term, the most logical thing to do for the organization with where we are at against the cap, is to let Markstrom walk if he wants too much money or too much term. He doesn't have the power here..

 

[Bleach Clean]

The upcoming window is also a good case why the team is may be best served to give up assets for other teams to take on their bad contracts if it means they can keep their current team intact. Any prospect outside of Podkolzin/Hoglander and any future pick outside the first round could be used to get out of the mess.

I think we're (collectively) severely underestimating just how much value players like Pettersson and Hughes can/will offer in their age 21 - 25 seasons. And how that value may not be there in the same way after that, especially as they start to get into their UFA years + second post-ELC contracts.

The team has like, a four-year window IMO to make a real run at it. You either need to try and find maximum value now, and hope that everything aligns and the overpaid vets can come through in short stretches (no one would be surprised if Loui went on a streak for a few games), or you need to sell current assets for more future value. That's where Horvat/Miller level players would come in.

This is ideology more than it is disagreement. It's weighting what helps the team more over the top level years of Pettersson and Hughes. I say top level because vancityluongo makes a salient point about their prime years. These are different windows.

There is no getting around the fact that their 21-25 year old seasons are likely to be their best years. And I do agree that their value is unlikely to be the same after that. At the same time, I think the framework of this team is so bad in the short-term that those years will not be maximized anyway. There will not exist a time when VAN is considered among the most efficient rosters in the league. It's just not going to happen.

If we accept this, we move to playoff frequency and luck, rather than timing for the optimum window. I would like to create a scenario where the surrounding structure is made to be as sound as possible. Which then allows Pettersson and Hughes to shine regardless of their personal peaks. This is similar to what happened with the Sedins, whom had their best seasons beyond their prime aged years. It's because the proper supporting structure was finally put in place to allow them to flourish.

Without retaining their limited young talent coming up on ELCs, this team doesn't have a prayer. On quality, they are beat out by EDM, COL, soon to be LA and perhaps even ANA. And that's just in the West...

 

[Bettman Returnz]

The upcoming window is also a good case why the team is may be best served to give up assets for other teams to take on their bad contracts if it means they can keep their current team intact. Any prospect outside of Podkolzin/Hoglander and any future pick outside the first round could be used to get out of the mess.

Do we really trust JB to get us “out of this mess”? Wasn’t he the one who basically got us into it? He’s like a kid in the candy store... can’t help himself on FA day! So many bad signings!

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

The upcoming window is also a good case why the team is may be best served to give up assets for other teams to take on their bad contracts if it means they can keep their current team intact. Any prospect outside of Podkolzin/Hoglander and any future pick outside the first round could be used to get out of the mess.

There are some problems with this. With a flat cap, the amount of teams looking to take on a bad contract for futures will be limited. Other teams will also be looking to get out of bad contracts, which will bring the price up. Teams would be looking to maximize value for taking on bad contracts. Trading away a 3rd or B prospect won't get it done.

Even if other teams took on our bad contracts we would still be a bubble team. I say let the bad contracts expire. Graduating prospects to fill roles when Hughes and Pettersson are on new contracts.

 

[m9]

Do we really trust JB to get us “out of this mess”? Wasn’t he the one who basically got us into it? He’s like a kid in the candy store... can’t help himself on FA day! So many bad signings!

I agree that the GM is the problem with the plan. However if a new GM came in and stated that he felt the team is ready to win and he is going to trade some picks/prospects to keep Markstrom, Toffoli and Tanev on the roster I would get it.

 

[sting101]

I hope you are all well.

I find your goalie situation interesting. Markstrom is a pending UFA, and obviously has Demko behind him, and eventually DiPietro.

If Markstrom is kept, do you trade Demko? Or keep him for the year and have Seattle just take him? do you let Markstrom walk and give the reigns to Demko?

What seems to be the likely course for ya’ll?

i would sign Markstrom for less term at a higher dollar and not give expansion draft protection. Say 3 or 4yrs @ 5.5-6.

Then at the conclusion of 2021 season protect Demko if he continues to look good and hope for the best.

If Seattle takes Marky so be it. almost 32 yr old on a huge contract gone and they can target a defenseman

 

[rypper]

If taking a gamble on some magic beans (signing a relativel unknown in Tryamkin) leads to a proven commodity like Stecher walking, that would be a hilariously on brand move for Jim Benning.

 

[Kryten]

If taking a gamble on some magic beans (signing a relativel unknown in Tryamkin) leads to a proven commodity like Stecher walking, that would be a hilariously on brand move for Jim Benning.

Without having watched Tryamkin in Russia, I have no problem letting Stecher walk for Nikita. Like Hutton, both should have been paid no more than 1.5 per in the first place

 

[VanJack]

It's almost official.....the salary cap will be flat at $81.5m a team for the next three seasons. That effectively means the Canucks can afford to sign only'one' of Tanev, Markstrom or Tofoli.

So which one?

 

[Bettman Returnz]

It's almost official.....the salary cap will be flat at $81.5m a team for the next three seasons. That effectively means the Canucks can afford to sign only'one' of Tanev, Markstrom or Tofoli.

So which one?

Tend to agree with you. We’d need to send eriksson, Sutter, etc out of town to even have a chance of 2-3 of them.

would say probably markstrom as the resign. But could make a case for any of them. JB has never been able to pull off creative trades so I don’t feel optimistic of anything earth shattering either way.