2020 Roster and Fantasy GM Thread II

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vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
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Tanner Pearson is a guy I’d explore moving for help on the blue line, I think he had a very fortunate year in terms of production and could hold higher perceived value. His underlying are pretty poor and i don’t see him as a long term fixture here.

It makes sense. Coming off a career season with 1 year left on his deal, it'd be worth seeing what he could get on the market especially as this team likely won't even be able to afford to extend him.
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
27,461
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Agreed with this wholeheartedly.

From a strategic standpoint, whoever is in the GM role here really has to make a key decision, and rather quickly, if this team wants to have a hope of being something beyond middling. Either route has its merits - I tend to agree with you that there is so much junk on the current roster that the sacrifices to get it to a point of efficiency where it can contend with the Tampa Bay, Boston and St. Louis level teams of the league could have disastrous future consequences. And the compounding costs of moving numerous bad contracts would bleed so much value that the GM making these moves would need to be head and shoulders above the rest of the league.

On the other hand, I really cannot stress enough how much it seems, both from the transaction data, and from incorrect perceptions pushed in this market over the last 6 years, that futures are overvalued. The playoff frequency and luck strategy was Mike Gillis' downfall IMO - not trading futures and ending up with no prospects, as is the common misconception. Let's not forget that. Gillis might still be the GM today if he had traded Cody Hodgson and a 1st (used to pick Brendan Gaunce) in 2012 for Jeff Carter. Two assets that contribute absolutely zero value to this organization 8 years later (and with Kassian being moved with a pick for a negative value asset in Prust... it was actually negative value just 3 years later in 2015) may have been the difference between a Cup and a first round exit in 2012.

Now, we cannot even pretend for a second that the current roster is anywhere close to that tipping point, so the point really is moot for now. But for the purposes of this discussion, I'd be cautious about the "playoff frequency" strategy. Look at a team like Philly which is always in the running, but have never been able to surround Giroux (and Voracek) with the supporting cast needed, despite some home run prospects (Provorov/Konecny in the same draft...) over the years and no massive Eriksson/Okposo/Ladd/Lucic level cap blunders. The issue is that unless you can extract incredible value in free agency (nearly impossible), trades (takes a lot of skill and terrific pro scouting), or late round picks (throwing darts)... it is hard to improve the organization other than by just hoping for organic growth in your established core. That becomes nearly impossible once that core is starting to age. San Jose and Nashville are two more examples in the West. All of these teams made the Cup finals once and were beat by clearly better teams. None were repeat favorites to make it back the next year, or ever again. Is that really the goal?

It's certainly much easier at that point vs where the Canucks are now to take the next step like St. Louis/Washington eventually did, but I guess I think it is more likely that we can only ever get to that Philly level vs the Washington level, especially if the timing is around when Pettersson/Hughes are above age 25. Would anyone bet on Claude Giroux pulling off a Cup now at age 32, even with a decent supporting cast? Even if they added another superstar added by cashing in prospects via a deadline trade? That's already with further supporting role players added (Hayes/JVR) to bolster the depth. What if a player like Sanheim or Hart takes a massive leap forward in development? Could it happen for Philly? Sure. Is it likely?

And even that is kind of optimistic. Many teams led by superstars are only as good as the current Winnipeg Jets or maybe even the Calgary Flames. The latter just last season had 4 players hovering around a PPG, a Norris winner and lost in 5 games in the first round. Now they're hovering at mediocrity again. Would anyone bet on Mark Giordano winning a Cup as a Flame?

Instead, it seems like "going for it" on a consistent basis, while you have the core to do so - ie. Chicago, LA, Boston, Washington, Pittsburgh - is worth it, even at the potential cost of a very painful downward slide eventually. By having not picked in the first round 5 of 6 years between 2013 and 2018 (and trading that one 1st round pick in Kapanen), Pittsburgh is going to be f***ed once Crosby/Malkin/Letang retire, which might all happen at once. But maybe not, because by having those players they've had tremendous development success with players like Guentzel and Dumoulin that they may not have otherwise had. And they won two Cups during that stretch, so who gives a shit. Chicago still has Toews and Kane at age 32 to transition Dach and Debrincat. Would anyone be surprised if they pulled off another Cup in three years?


I think the crux of this discussion lies within your assessment of the transaction data, and the false perceptions regarding futures. What do you refer to here? Is it that the odds are stacked against producing players from the draft?

The premise doesn't so much rely on the player as it does the player's performance. Giroux is fine as the core piece so long as he performs like a core piece. He had his best year at age 30, lest we forget. He also followed up that year with an above PPG performance last year. That's good enough, much like Krejci was good enough, so long as Bergeron (Couturier) and Chara (not Provorov) are in tow.

To put another way: I'm not banking on any core that doesn't include a generational talent to continually compete. Nor am I banking on any one core group should the GM decide to go all in every year. What I see in the Canucks is a team with a relative disadvantage in terms of core pieces (quality and number), that will have to be made up by increasing the quality of their support pieces. That will be difficult to do quickly based upon their cap structure. So there’s really only the long frequency route available, unless they luck into another core player.

On Gillis' downfall: Probably, but it's because he didn't produce at the draft that we can surmise that a trade would have been better. The alternative is getting a core piece on an ELC, the holy grail, or a support piece that helps push them over the top. List is below on the possibilities.

(Kuznetsov*, Karlsson, Carlson, Josi, Spurgeon, O'Reilly, Stone, Gibson, Kucherov*, Gaudreau, Slavin, Theodore)

(Henrique, Nyquist, Demers, Johansson, Silfverberg, Dumoulin, Tatar, Barrie, R. Smith, Eakin, Savard, Ekholm, C. Smith, Foligno, Vatanen, Hoffman, A. Lee, Faulk, Toffoli, Jarnkrok, Zucker, Gudas, Rust, Donskoi, Hyman, Klingberg, Ferland, Andersen, Rakell, Jenner, Saad, W. Karlsson, Trochek, JG Pageau, A. Shaw, Palat, Pearson, A. Shaw, Skjei, Tierney, Severson, Lindell, Ghostisbehere, E. Gustafsson, Paquette, Athanasiou, Hellebuyck, Kerfoot, Hartman, Lekhonen, Bertuzzi, Pesce, Buchnevich, Guentzel, Bjorkstrand, Butcher, Weegar)
 
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sandwichbird2023

Registered User
Aug 4, 2004
4,046
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If Tanev leaves they have to look at signing someone else such as Dylan Demelo would likely come at less of a commitment and can provide a steady, defensive presence on the right side.
It all depends on how much Demelo would commend on the open market. He is a good target that comes with a couple seasons of solid defensive play, but so was Benn. I'm hoping Demelo will work out better of course, but signing UFA is such a gamble. To do it with probably the toughest position is very risky. Hate to be in this situation but what options do we have?

I think you give Myers the bigger defensive role and hope he grows into it. What choice do you really have?
Myers would get destroyed in that role. After 10 years in the league, he is who he is, I don't think he is capable of "growing" into anything. But we might get to find out as we really lack options.
 

supercanuck

Registered User
Mar 2, 2016
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Tanner Pearson is a guy I’d explore moving for help on the blue line, I think he had a very fortunate year in terms of production and could hold higher perceived value. His underlying are pretty poor and i don’t see him as a long term fixture here.

I think this would be a good idea...if only just to free up some space to resign Marky/Tanev/Tiffoli. Hopefully one of Virtanen/Gaudette can step up and fill his space on the 2nd line.

I also feel like there is still an old fashioned GM or two out there who would take a chance on Sutter with one more season left for like a 7th round draft pick. Could be just wishful thinking though. Benning wouldn't trade him anyways.
 

m9

m9
Jan 23, 2010
25,107
15,230
The thing about trading Pearson is that his relationship with Toffoli is considered the main reason Toffoli would sign here. So, you're probably not trading him to sign Toffoli.

But I agree with the idea of moving Pearson.
 
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timw33

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Nov 18, 2007
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I think this would be a good idea...if only just to free up some space to resign Marky/Tanev/Tiffoli. Hopefully one of Virtanen/Gaudette can step up and fill his space on the 2nd line.

I also feel like there is still an old fashioned GM or two out there who would take a chance on Sutter with one more season left for like a 7th round draft pick. Could be just wishful thinking though. Benning wouldn't trade him anyways.

The issue that, although I bet there is an old school GM out there that would take Sutter for a later pick and retention, that Jim Benning himself is an old school GM and wouldn't want to give up such a quality character leader who is here to help them win in the playoffs.

Unfortunately the time to do some cap cleaning for the upcoming core extensions was last year and Benning needed to find a way to deal with one or more of Baerstchi/Sutter/Eriksson/Beagle/Roussel. Or could have just refrained from adding $10.5MM/yr for the next 4 years last offseason by not signing Ferland/Myers. Like, if Benning just took ONE year off from singing like $10-15MM/year of awful UFA contracts we'd probably be in fine shape and able to bring back our best players and get the young stars signed to new contracts.
 

ginner classic

Dammit Jim!
Mar 4, 2002
10,653
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Douglas Park
2020 is our year to go for it. 2021 is a write off due to the cap. Given that we will be a lot weaker next year, the plan is to embrace a one year 'cap-health rebuild'. There is no need to pay teams to acquire our assets, as we don't have enough given all the trades Benning has already made. We simply have to choose to not re-sign some fairly important players. That includes Tanev (assuming he won't do a short term, cap friendly deal), Toffoli, Tryamkin, and one of Virtanen or Markstrom (yeah...you read that right). Stecher therefore is on my cap rebuild team.
The plan is to ride out the bad contracts instead of giving up assets to let them leave, and instead make some tough choices with some good players outside the very core of the team. The team should plan to rehabilitate some players with current negative value on 2021 expiring deals to generate some mid-late round picks for the 2021 draft at the deadline.


2020-21 Strategy:

Rebuild financial structure to make room for Hughes and Pettersson contracts. Write off expectations for next year. Try to rebuild the defence for the long term. Rebuild center depth in the organization. Make no trades that require pick/prospects sweeteners.

Assumptions:

1.) Players do not give hometown discounts and sign for whatever term they could get on the open market.
2.) Contracts at or above market value are unmovable
3.) 2020 1st round draft pick is lost/beat Minnesota
4.) Benning is a rational actor, or gone
5.) Ownership is a rational actor


Canucks 2020 RFAs
Tryamkin - Traded - (NJ, OTT, MTL, DET) - 2020 or 2021 pick, a 20-23 year old defensive center, or another reclamation project (Juulsen)
Virtanen - Traded (CAR, BUF, MTL, OTT, DET, NJ, ) - Ideally a younger defender comes back the other way (Fleury, Bean, Brook, Foote, Timmins etc)
Stecher - 3 x 2.5
Motte - 2 x 1.25
Gaudette - 2 x 1.5
Leivo - 1 x 1.5
MacEwen - 2 x 900k (one way)

UFA 2020 Contract Expiry
Markstrom - 4 x 6.5, 20 team NTC
Tanev - gone
Toffoli - gone
Domingue - gone

UFA 2021 Contract Expiry
Pearson - NHL - Deadline trade - 3rd
Sutter - NHL - Deadline trade - 4th
Benn - NHL - Deadline trade - 7th
Baertschi - NHL - Deadline trade - 7th
Edler - NHL - Potential re-sign

UFA 2022 + Expiry
Eriksson - AHL - Bonus if he retires early
Beagle - NHL - Bonus if he retires early
Ferland - NHL - Bonus if he retires early
Roussel - NHL - Bonus if he retires early

Claim off waivers/sign
McKeown

2020-21
Miller - Pettersson - Boeser
Pearson - Horvat - Leivo
Ferland - Gaudette - MacEwen
Roussel - Sutter - Motte
Baertschi, Beagle

Hughes - Myers
Edler - Stecher
Fleury - Rafferty
Juolevi - McKeown

Yeah those forwards are gross. Yes it is a step backwards. But it is pretty much the only way we repair our cap situation so that the following year we can actually add pieces.
 

sting101

Registered User
Feb 8, 2012
16,661
15,905
@ginner classic

*i wouldn't trade Tryamkin and Virtanen.
*Toffoli and Tanev signing will look bad by year 2 unless they take less money and term. Agree on that one. Toffoli would be nice but he will have to sign a Perron type deal for us to be able to fit him in.
*I'm not sure Fleury and McKeown provide any value above Tryamkin and Benn.
* I would just buy out Sutter if we have to but C depth is a good thing so obviously Baertschi and Eriksson should be told they are not coming back to Vancouver and see if they have any options develop first or we have injuries that allow him to stay.
 

604

Registered User
Nov 1, 2011
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Can we do a vote on which contracts the Canucks should be working to clear (i.e. in a world of unlimited compliance buyouts who would go first).

I see a lot of people wanting to trade assets with Sutter to get rid of him but in my mind he only has 1 year left and isn't crazy bad value.

1 (worst) - Ericsson
2 - Baerschi
3 - Roussel
4 - Myers (best player of the group but long and high)
5 - Beagle
6 - Sutter

NOTE - I'm fine with Ferland as he's okay value if he's playing or IR if not.

Did I miss anyone?

The top 3 in my mind are the only ones I would trade with assets (I.e. Demko or 2nd to get rid off).
 

VanillaCoke

Registered User
Oct 30, 2013
26,139
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Baertschi is much much better value than ferland.
He's an actual nhl player thats been buried in the ahl undeservedly, with a slightly overpriced contract.
Ferland is a less skilled, less effective bottom sixer who was way overpaid the moment he signed.
As was easily predicted by many including myself, he was garbage without top line minutes and then got injured.
Both of which situations was obvious to Joe Internet, but not to JB and his big money ntc contract he gave him, when nobody else was offering anything close.
 
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dbaz

Registered User
Jan 29, 2010
1,162
501
with the cap staying flat..
1. eriksson
2. myers. if cap raised like it looked hed be lower
3. beagle/roussell
5.ferland. either ltir or stuck
6.sutter one year left/possibly tradeable
7.baer. lowest hit and only 1year. easiest to trade
 

Diablo2020

Registered User
Feb 11, 2020
243
184
Calgary
Virtanen and Baertschi
for
VAN 2020 1st

NJD only have 3 wingers signed for next year and tonnes of capspace. They take a flier on Baertschi and get Virtanen for the #17 pick.

Sutter and Juolevi
for
VAN 2020 2nd, VAN 2021 4th

LAK eat Sutter's contract but get Juolevi for the #48 overall pick and we cancel the conditional for resigning Toffoli.


Canucks get both their picks back, gain 10 million in capspace (once Virtanen signs) and move on from the Jake/Olli drafts once and for all.

Toffoli for Schaller, Sutter, Juolevi, Madden

Miller for Baertschi, Virtanen, 3rd
 

tyhee

Registered User
Feb 5, 2015
2,660
2,804
Virtanen and Baertschi
for
VAN 2020 1st

NJD only have 3 wingers signed for next year and tonnes of capspace. They take a flier on Baertschi and get Virtanen for the #17 pick.

Sven may or may not be NHL quality, but he's available for free and has been all season long. At $3.366 million to play in the AHL has to be valued, for trade purposes, as a negative.

Is Jake worth 1 mid-1st round pick in a deep draft and taking on that negative? Imo clearly he is not. He's very talented and if he gains enough maturity before his physical talent fades could be really good, but there's been no indication of a burning desire to excel and there have been questions about his maturity level and commitment to training. So he could improve, but for trade purposes I think that averages out to assuming he is what he is going to be and that is less than the sum of Baertschi's negative value contract and that 2020-1st rounder.

... Sutter and Juolevi
for
VAN 2020 2nd, VAN 2021 4th

LAK eat Sutter's contract but get Juolevi for the #48 overall pick and we cancel the conditional for resigning Toffoli.

Canucks get both their picks back, gain 10 million in capspace (once Virtanen signs) and move on from the Jake/Olli drafts once and for all.

So the Kings feel guilty and decide to give back the advantage they got in taking Benning to the cleaners on the Toffoli deal?

Ok, occasionally you run across an incompetent NHL GM who will make silly deals that don't take team needs into account, so you can make teams offers of this nature, with the expectation that the opposing GM will simply chuckle and decline the offer.

Juolevi's development has gone very badly. Health has been a problem and when he's been available to play his defence and physical play have been poor. The only real strength has been his passing vision when he has plenty of time to make a play. He's still young so could turn things around but I'd peg Juolevi's current trade value as about that 2021-4th rounder you've included coming to the Canucks, not the 2020-2nd.

The Kings have cap space but as a rebuilding team near the bottom of the league standings surely they can find a better way of using it than giving up future assets for an overpaid 31 year old. If the Kings need to fill in their roster to ice a team for next season there can do so cheaper and as well in free agency. The players filling in their roster should be decent, which Sutter is, short-term, which Sutter is, and cheap, which Sutter is not. The Kings can get a decent, short-term free agent on a cheap deal this offseason without giving up assets. There's no need for them to give up assets to overpay Sutter.

The Kings aren't a Cup contender willing to overpay to fill a need with the strength to get them to a championship. They are a bad team on a rebuild. They shouldn't give up any asset at all to overpay a 31 year old bottom-six forward.
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,815
4,074
Virtanen and Baertschi
for
VAN 2020 1st

NJD only have 3 wingers signed for next year and tonnes of capspace. They take a flier on Baertschi and get Virtanen for the #17 pick.

Sutter and Juolevi
for
VAN 2020 2nd, VAN 2021 4th

LAK eat Sutter's contract but get Juolevi for the #48 overall pick and we cancel the conditional for resigning Toffoli.


Canucks get both their picks back, gain 10 million in capspace (once Virtanen signs) and move on from the Jake/Olli drafts once and for all.

Toffoli for Schaller, Sutter, Juolevi, Madden

Miller for Baertschi, Virtanen, 3rd

Not sure how realistic this is considering Virtanen is probably worth around a 2nd rounder at this stage - maybe a late 1st if you're lucky or are good at negotiating. But tacking on Baertschi as a cap dump shouldn't net you our 1st, especially when we still don't know what position it'll be. For instance if we lose the play-in against Minny there's a chance it could be the 1st overall...

Likewise with Juolevi whose stock has fallen since his draft. Perhaps you could get a mid round pick for him on the market but add in Sutter and that drops it down to probably a late pick.
 
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Orr4Norris

Registered User
Mar 2, 2018
876
1,041
I feel like everything has changed and yet we are still talking in pre-Covid terms.

Hockey is likely gonna be weird for the next while. Next season may be shortened or may be played in a hub or may be played with no fans... what owner is going to be down with spending money on free agents?

Go with the young guys. Sign a backup and run with Demko (unless Marky is good to sign a one year deal), see what you have in Rafferty or Tryamkin and waive goodbye to Tanev (unless he’s willing to sign a Gardiner type deal) Pick between Brock and Toffoli (I would be inclined to pick Brock unless a team offered a can’t refuse deal).
 
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PavelBure10

The Russian Rocket
Aug 25, 2009
5,661
7,908
Okanagan
With Boeser's and Demko's names being mentioned as tradeable assets, it scares the crap out of me. I don't want to see a Kesler kind of trade all over again.

I don't mind the idea of trading either player to upgrade our roster, I just don't like Benning being the one who is holding the cards.

Benning usually gets bent over everytime.
 

Diablo2020

Registered User
Feb 11, 2020
243
184
Calgary
Brett Connolly gets two seconds after 15 points in 50 games..

But Jake with 36 points in 69 games is only worth a 2nd? After three years of straight inprovement whereas Connolly was stagnant at the time..

People be sleeping on Jake value..

Boeser with 45 points at 5.875 gets a kings ransom but Jake with 36 points for around 3 million gets a 2nd.. hmm...
 

Peen

Rejoicing in a Benning-free world
Oct 6, 2013
31,367
27,604
I wouldn't mind us buying low on Colin Miller.

Problem is we don't have the cap space for him.
 
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