OT: 2020 Football Thread: We Still Suck

[Barnaby]

I've made the case here many times that one of the (many) reasons for the Jets ineptitude is their ignoring the WR position in the draft for decades. You can always sign a high end RB but when was the last time a guy like Julio Jones or DeAndre Hopkins hit free agency, Randy Moss? The fact that Hopkins was traded for nothing shows how much of a clown show Bill O'Brien was in Texas.

As usual the Jets are 15-20 years behind the rest of the league and are just figuring out that you need a high octane passing attack to win in this league. That means finding your QB, building a wall around him, and giving him weapons. The last two regimes refused to build an offensive line or secure top level weapons through draft or free agency.

 

[Maximus]

As usual the Jets are 15-20 years behind the rest of the league and are just figuring out that you need a high octane passing attack to win in this league. That means finding your QB, building a wall around him, and giving him weapons. The last two regimes refused to build an offensive line or secure top level weapons through draft or free agency.

What we need first and foremost is a head coach who knows what the F he's doing. An offensive minded coach like a Joe Brady, Brian Daboll...heck I'd go for Lincoln Riley if I wanted to go the "Kliff Kingsbury" route. But we gotta get the coach right. I hope and pray that the Johnson's let Joe D pick who he wants as coach. I don't want it any other way than that.

Than once the coach is picked, than you can decides what route you want to go as far as QB....do we stick with Sam for another year and surround him with better coaching, weapons and and an improved O-line? Do we trade down in the draft and maybe take one of the QB's? Do we maybe take a stab at a Matt Ryan who I believe might be available end of the year.

Lots of things Joe D needs to do and obviously QB and weapons are uber important. But most important thing AINEC is to get the right coach here finally. Do that and everything else will fall in place.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Love what they do over at PFF and it has been very helpful in evaluating non skill position players for me over the past few years, but I just don't see Douglass pulling the trigger at #2 for Wilson or any of the QB's.

I'm 50/50 as to whether Joe D stays at 2 and takes Sewell or he trades down with teams that likely crave Sewell like a Cincy or San Diego(not a misprint...they'll always be San Diego to me) or maybe even Jerry World and picks up some more draft capital.

Heck I think there is a better chance Douglass brings in Wentz than he does drafting a QB that is not named Trevor Lawrence in the 1st round.

IDK who is good at evaluating players to be honest. PFF is entertaining to read yet College PFF has been as inaccurate as these self proclaimed experts as i see it.

Ohio State CB Okudah was proclaimed a Ramsey who never gave up more than 50 yards to a receiver, etc, etc , etc. Since joining the Lions, he was as lost as you can get. Some of these highly graded linemen and linebackers are no better.

Besides Lawrence, i don't trust anybody in the Top 5 with 6-10 still risky IMO. Thinking 11-approx 52 is less risky and safer value.

 

[Maximus]

IDK who is good at evaluating players to be honest. PFF is entertaining to read yet College PFF has been as inaccurate as these self proclaimed experts as i see it.

Ohio State CB Okudah was proclaimed a Ramsey who never gave up more than 50 yards to a receiver, etc, etc , etc. Since joining the Lions, he was as lost as you can get. Some of these highly graded linemen and linebackers are no better.

Besides Lawrence, i don't trust anybody in the Top 5 with 6-10 still risky IMO. Thinking 11-approx 52 is less risky and safer value.

I know you stated you don't trust a player who hasn't played in a year but from everything I've read and seen and heard about Sewell, he is about as sure a thing at OT as Lawrence is at QB. After that, I'm with you as the rest is a crap shoot.

As I said, I think either Joe D says F it...I'm taking Sewell and I'm going to build the Jets O-line into the next Great Wall of Dallas or he trades down a time or two for more draft capital and takes the best CB,WR,Edge rusher or Olineman available.

I'm debating in my head which way I'd go and as of right this minute, I'd probably take Sewell. But that could change tomorrow...lol

 

[NYSPORTS]

I know you stated you don't trust a player who hasn't played in a year but from everything I've read and seen and heard about Sewell, he is about as sure a thing at OT as Lawrence is at QB. After that, I'm with you as the rest is a crap shoot.

As I said, I think either Joe D says F it...I'm taking Sewell and I'm going to build the Jets O-line into the next Great Wall of Dallas or he trades down a time or two for more draft capital and takes the best CB,WR,Edge rusher or Olineman available.

I'm debating in my head which way I'd go and as of right this minute, I'd probably take Sewell. But that could change tomorrow...lol

would be amazing for a long while with the Jets two bookends. All you have read, seen, etc and me too . . . then go look at Okudah.

 

[Maximus]

would be amazing for a long while with the Jets two bookends. All you have read, seen, etc and me too . . . then go look at Okudah.

OK duly noted about Okudah. But for every Okudah there is a Quentin Nelson who is as good as it gets.

I'm thinking Douglass will obviously do his due diligence and whatever he decides whether it be to take Sewell or trade down, I have a hunch most Jet fans will approve.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

OK duly noted about Okudah. But for every Okudah there is a Quentin Nelson who is as good as it gets.

I'm thinking Douglass will obviously do his due diligence and whatever he decides whether it be to take Sewell or trade down, I have a hunch most Jet fans will approve.

Isn't Okudah a rookie in a difficult year for rookies? The case isn't closed on him yet.

 

[NYSPORTS]

OK duly noted about Okudah. But for every Okudah there is a Quentin Nelson who is as good as it gets.

I'm thinking Douglass will obviously do his due diligence and whatever he decides whether it be to take Sewell or trade down, I have a hunch most Jet fans will approve.

Greg Robinson was supposed to be great too. brandon scherff was the best in a decade. Very good but not the best in a decade

There is about 44% hit rate for OL in Round 1. Everybody is doing their research yet it's tough when the college game better reflects high school than the NFL. Sewell is a guy who didn't even play this year. He's very enticing but i try to ignore these writeups as if yet another guy is the best in a decade. We read about generational players on a yearly basis these days.

My team has had so many top 10 picks and my gosh. Barkley? Jones? Thomas ok?, Flowers? Apple? Then OBJ around 14 and was a headcase. Tough to trust after all that.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Isn't Okudah a rookie in a difficult year for rookies? The case isn't closed on him yet.

who said it was?

 

[TheTimTamSlammerMan]

If the Jets pick Sewell, you’re really gonna be screwing over the Bengals lol. They need an o-line so bad. Imagine Sewell and Becton. You guys would be ridiculous.

 

[Maximus]

If the Jets pick Sewell, you’re really gonna be screwing over the Bengals lol. They need an o-line so bad. Imagine Sewell and Becton. You guys would be ridiculous.

And that's why if I were Douglass as I suggested yesterday in one of my comments, I would use all my faking, deking and what have you to play the Bengals and Chargers, two teams who are desperate for a Sewell and I do mean desperate, off of one another and make them think he was taking Sewell, to see if one of those two teams will trade up with the Jets and give Joe D a few more high draft picks.

That would be the route I would go if Douglass wasn't going to take Sewell cause there is nobody else who I think is worth it at that spot.

So yeah, lets get Cincy and San Diego bidding against one another to move up and Joe simply takes the best offer he gets. Not a bad position to be in actually.

 

[smoneil]

I've made the case here many times that one of the (many) reasons for the Jets ineptitude is their ignoring the WR position in the draft for decades. You can always sign a high end RB but when was the last time a guy like Julio Jones or DeAndre Hopkins hit free agency, Randy Moss? The fact that Hopkins was traded for nothing shows how much of a clown show Bill O'Brien was in Texas.

They haven't ignored WR at the draft. In the last 10 years alone, they've drafted 12 or 13 receivers, including about a third of that group in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. Where they've failed is in drafting the RIGHT wide receivers. Even when they get a good one (Enunwa, Kerley) is seems like they luck into them in the late rounds after taking bust WRs earlier. Even last year, while it ended up working out, they gambled on the trade down and risked losing Mims.

Frankly, the receivers weren't really the problem this year--consistency was. The starting trio never consistently saw the field together because of injury. The RB (meant to be part of the passing attack) kept changing from Bell to Perine to Gore to Johnson/Adams. Tight End was supposed to be part of the passing attack, but Herndon forgot how to catch a ball, and Gase seemingly forgot that Ryan Griffin is on the team (only targeted ~25% as much as the last two seasons, despite playing very well in those previous two seasons w/the Jets). There's talent in this group (not top-end talent, but talent enough to not be an embarrassment).

 

[sbjnyc]

They haven't ignored WR at the draft. In the last 10 years alone, they've drafted 12 or 13 receivers, including about a third of that group in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. Where they've failed is in drafting the RIGHT wide receivers. Even when they get a good one (Enunwa, Kerley) is seems like they luck into them in the late rounds after taking bust WRs earlier. Even last year, while it ended up working out, they gambled on the trade down and risked losing Mims.

Frankly, the receivers weren't really the problem this year--consistency was. The starting trio never consistently saw the field together because of injury. The RB (meant to be part of the passing attack) kept changing from Bell to Perine to Gore to Johnson/Adams. Tight End was supposed to be part of the passing attack, but Herndon forgot how to catch a ball, and Gase seemingly forgot that Ryan Griffin is on the team (only targeted ~25% as much as the last two seasons, despite playing very well in those previous two seasons w/the Jets). There's talent in this group (not top-end talent, but talent enough to not be an embarrassment).

In the last 20 years, the Jets drafted 1 wr in the first round (Moss in 2001). They traded him after 4 years for a wr they previously drafted but let go into free agency (Coles). They drafted 3 WRs in the second round (Stephen Hill Devin Smith and Mims). They drafted 1 WR in the third round (ardarius Stewart).

I stand by what I said.

 

[nyr2k2]

If they could get Robinson that would be great. Robinson, Mims, and Crowder is a pretty good nucleus. Then try for someone like Agholor, or someone else you can find for relatively cheap and add another guy in the top couple rounds of the draft. Then you actually have talent and depth.

I wouldn't be opposed to bringing Perriman back but it would have to be on a really cheap deal.

 

[Barnaby]

What we need first and foremost is a head coach who knows what the F he's doing. An offensive minded coach like a Joe Brady, Brian Daboll...heck I'd go for Lincoln Riley if I wanted to go the "Kliff Kingsbury" route. But we gotta get the coach right. I hope and pray that the Johnson's let Joe D pick who he wants as coach. I don't want it any other way than that.

Than once the coach is picked, than you can decides what route you want to go as far as QB....do we stick with Sam for another year and surround him with better coaching, weapons and and an improved O-line? Do we trade down in the draft and maybe take one of the QB's? Do we maybe take a stab at a Matt Ryan who I believe might be available end of the year.

Lots of things Joe D needs to do and obviously QB and weapons are uber important. But most important thing AINEC is to get the right coach here finally. Do that and everything else will fall in place.

Im obviously in agreement on the coaching. I thought Bowles was lousy, but Gase makes him look like Vince Lombardi. I’d love to get one of the young and innovative offensive minded coaches, but we’ll see how that goes. Losing Lawrence absent a miracle may very well have also cost the Jets the cream of the crop of the coaching world. Coming into Trevor Lawrence is a lot more enticing than Wilson, Fields, or rolling with Sam in year 4.

I have zero interest in Ryan or Wentz. I would consider Stafford depending on the cost, but I doubt he’s the long term answer either.

 

[Barnaby]

Greg Robinson was supposed to be great too. brandon scherff was the best in a decade. Very good but not the best in a decade

There is about 44% hit rate for OL in Round 1. Everybody is doing their research yet it's tough when the college game better reflects high school than the NFL. Sewell is a guy who didn't even play this year. He's very enticing but i try to ignore these writeups as if yet another guy is the best in a decade. We read about generational players on a yearly basis these days.

My team has had so many top 10 picks and my gosh. Barkley? Jones? Thomas ok?, Flowers? Apple? Then OBJ around 14 and was a headcase. Tough to trust after all that.

Not too many picks are guaranteed home runs, but you still have to shoot your best shot. We can all name the failed QB’s, pass rushers, OL... etc... that doesn’t mean you don’t listen to your scouts and try to make your best pick. I wouldn’t have an issue with Sewell at 2 if they decide to hang onto the pick. I certainly get being a little wary of a guy who sat out but I get it. Coming off a big year and not wanting to risk injury makes sense. CoVid gave guys that choice.

 

[Barnaby]

In the last 20 years, the Jets drafted 1 wr in the first round (Moss in 2001). They traded him after 4 years for a wr they previously drafted but let go into free agency (Coles). They drafted 3 WRs in the second round (Stephen Hill Devin Smith and Mims). They drafted 1 WR in the third round (ardarius Stewart).

I stand by what I said.

Devin Smith. Gross. Even Stephen Hill was better as the blocking WR whose ‘only’ knock was that he had poor hands. You might as well draft a QB who can’t throw or a kicker who can’t kick.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

The only guys that would be an apples to apples to comparison to Etienne(who would be drafted 27 thru 32) would be Jacobs, Edwards-Hellaire, Michel and Penny.

The only reason you could logically argue that the other early first round RBs arent apples to apples would be in this context:

"They're way better than the later 1st round RBs so it isn't a fair comparison."

The comparison made here ABSOLUTELY not only makes this an apples to apples comparison it ALSO makes it a golden apples to apple comparison. He showed how even GOLDEN apples simply are not worth the 1st round investment.

You dismissed his entire well argued stance using logic that is the literal opposite of reality.

You could def say this response is a bit aggressive. You'd be right. Bc you did the same thing where you blew off well argued points/stances using reasoning that makes the opposite of sense. Etienne is good. He plays a position that has drastically reduced value unless you're already a good team.

 

[Barnaby]

The only reason you could logically argue that the other early first round RBs arent apples to apples would be in this context:

"They're way better than the later 1st round RBs so it isn't a fair comparison."

The comparison made here ABSOLUTELY not only makes this an apples to apples comparison it ALSO makes it a golden apples to apple comparison. He showed how even GOLDEN apples simply are not worth the 1st round investment.

You dismissed his entire well argued stance using logic that is the literal opposite of reality.

You could def say this response is a bit aggressive. You'd be right. Bc you did the same thing where you blew off well argued points/stances using reasoning that makes the opposite of sense. Etienne is good. He plays a position that has drastically reduced value unless you're already a good team.

The only way a first round RB makes sense to me is if you’re an upper echelon team who thinks your adding one of the final pieces. I wouldn’t have a major issue if the Jets swung at him with an early 2nd rounder, but I still wouldn’t love it. The shelf life of RB’s and their value in trades make it a relatively poor investment. Even a guy like Barkley, as good as he can be, looks like a poor pick just based on his workload and his best years likely being behind him before the Giants are competing. Then you are forced having to decide whether to pay him big money and a lot of those big RB contracts don’t age well. I’m looking at you Bell and Gurley. The tandem back approach with guys taken in the 2nd-4th or 5th round seems like the best bang for your buck.

 

[sbjnyc]

The only way a first round RB makes sense to me is if you’re an upper echelon team who thinks your adding one of the final pieces. I wouldn’t have a major issue if the Jets swung at him with an early 2nd rounder, but I still wouldn’t love it. The shelf life of RB’s and their value in trades make it a relatively poor investment. Even a guy like Barkley, as good as he can be, looks like a poor pick just based on his workload and his best years likely being behind him before the Giants are competing. Then you are forced having to decide whether to pay him big money and a lot of those big RB contracts don’t age well. I’m looking at you Bell and Gurley. The tandem back approach with guys taken in the 2nd-4th or 5th round seems like the best bang for your buck.

It's almost like drafting a safety at 6 when you need a quarterback.

 

[smoneil]

In the last 20 years, the Jets drafted 1 wr in the first round (Moss in 2001). They traded him after 4 years for a wr they previously drafted but let go into free agency (Coles). They drafted 3 WRs in the second round (Stephen Hill Devin Smith and Mims). They drafted 1 WR in the third round (ardarius Stewart).

I stand by what I said.

I would agree that they haven't "prioritized" the WR position, but they certainly haven't ignored it. A lot happens outside of the first round of the draft. Hell, more than 10 other WRs went ahead of Demarcus Robinson (4th rounder). The team has picked up some solid WRs in the lower rounds, including Coles, Cotchery, Kerley, and Enunwa. The issue isn't that they are ignoring WRs; it's that they aren't picking the right ones. I don't know if that's on the scouting team, the GM, or just Jets "luck," but most of the WRs they HAVE picked in the top half of the draft...haven't been good. As far as the previous regime, that was the case for just about ALL of their draft picks. I mean, out of the last 5 drafts, the team has picked 40+ players. How many are still with the team? MAYBE a third? Putting aside the last 3 drafts (where players would still be on cheap rookie deals--and even then, some are no longer with the team), we only have TWO players on the roster from the 2015, 2016, and 2017 drafts combined: Maye and Jenkins. Four wide receivers are among those draft failures. The TL/DR is that the team isn't failing at just ONE position at the draft. They have been drafting horribly for years, forcing the team to fill itself out via FA.

 

[Maximus]

The only reason you could logically argue that the other early first round RBs arent apples to apples would be in this context:

"They're way better than the later 1st round RBs so it isn't a fair comparison."

The comparison made here ABSOLUTELY not only makes this an apples to apples comparison it ALSO makes it a golden apples to apple comparison. He showed how even GOLDEN apples simply are not worth the 1st round investment.

You dismissed his entire well argued stance using logic that is the literal opposite of reality.

You could def say this response is a bit aggressive. You'd be right. Bc you did the same thing where you blew off well argued points/stances using reasoning that makes the opposite of sense. Etienne is good. He plays a position that has drastically reduced value unless you're already a good team.

Once again hoss and not sure you read my most recent comments, thru all your bizarro world vitirol you got going on for no reason. After reading a few comments, I did become convinced that spending a late 1st round pick on a guy I love and who I think would help the Jets enormously Etienne, might not be the savvy move.

So I suggested that if the Jets did acquire another early 2nd round pick if for example they moved down in the draft from 2, than taking an Etienne around the 33-37 area would be a good use of draft capital. A few peeps agreed with me.

So not sure what your issue is bro...I don't even know who you are nor did I address you and we are only talking hypotheticals anyways...my lord...ugh....

 

[Barnaby]

And that's why if I were Douglass as I suggested yesterday in one of my comments, I would use all my faking, deking and what have you to play the Bengals and Chargers, two teams who are desperate for a Sewell and I do mean desperate, off of one another and make them think he was taking Sewell, to see if one of those two teams will trade up with the Jets and give Joe D a few more high draft picks.

That would be the route I would go if Douglass wasn't going to take Sewell cause there is nobody else who I think is worth it at that spot.

So yeah, lets get Cincy and San Diego bidding against one another to move up and Joe simply takes the best offer he gets. Not a bad position to be in actually.

If I'm staying at #2 then I'm taking Sewell anyway. If Cincy and SD don't want to pony up, then I just make the pick. Call their bluff. Then, Give them the opportunity to make a deal before they make their picks such as when SD called out Eli's name knowing they were dealing him.

I'm almost hoping they don't overpay, because I want that beast offensive line. However, if a team like Cincy offers #3, a 2nd in 2021, and a 1st in 2022 then you pull the trigger.

The last time the Jets had success it was a strong offensive line with a very good defense. Dallas made themselves a playoff team with a mediocre defense and a good but overrated QB in Dak thanks mostly to that big OL. There are much worse things then adding a pro bowl tackle.

 

[Barnaby]

I would agree that they haven't "prioritized" the WR position, but they certainly haven't ignored it. A lot happens outside of the first round of the draft. Hell, more than 10 other WRs went ahead of Demarcus Robinson (4th rounder). The team has picked up some solid WRs in the lower rounds, including Coles, Cotchery, Kerley, and Enunwa. The issue isn't that they are ignoring WRs; it's that they aren't picking the right ones. I don't know if that's on the scouting team, the GM, or just Jets "luck," but most of the WRs they HAVE picked in the top half of the draft...haven't been good. As far as the previous regime, that was the case for just about ALL of their draft picks. I mean, out of the last 5 drafts, the team has picked 40+ players. How many are still with the team? MAYBE a third? Putting aside the last 3 drafts (where players would still be on cheap rookie deals--and even then, some are no longer with the team), we only have TWO players on the roster from the 2015, 2016, and 2017 drafts combined: Maye and Jenkins. Four wide receivers are among those draft failures. The TL/DR is that the team isn't failing at just ONE position at the draft. They have been drafting horribly for years, forcing the team to fill itself out via FA.

They've done so little that I almost feel like they did ignore it. I don't think taking a Jalen Saunders is really taking a legitimate shot at adding high end playmakers. The only time they spent money in recent years was an old Brandon Marshall and a quality slot WR in Crowder who we all knew coming in wasn't a game breaker. I guess we are talking semantics at this point, but I haven't felt that they've really moved hard on that position in YEARS. As far as the draft - they've taken a few, but no one that really got my nipples hard. Shaq Evans, Devin Smith, Stephen Hill - all busts who came in with questions before they took 1 snap and were not considered near the top of their draft classes. At some point you need to go hard at getting a real difference maker which they haven't done.

 

[SA16]

If I'm staying at #2 then I'm taking Sewell anyway. If Cincy and SD don't want to pony up, then I just make the pick. Call their bluff. Then, Give them the opportunity to make a deal before they make their picks such as when SD called out Eli's name knowing they were dealing him.

I'm almost hoping they don't overpay, because I want that beast offensive line. However, if a team like Cincy offers #3, a 2nd in 2021, and a 1st in 2022 then you pull the trigger.

The last time the Jets had success it was a strong offensive line with a very good defense. Dallas made themselves a playoff team with a mediocre defense and a good but overrated QB in Dak thanks mostly to that big OL. There are much worse things then adding a pro bowl tackle.

Dak isn't overrated. He's a top QB. I'd say he's underrated because people wrongly attribute his success to Zeke and the o-line. Even this year the Cowboys offense was good when he played.