Draft 2020 Draft & Undrafted Free Agent Thread: Part VI

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Kakko is probably the exception.

But when we start getting outside of that "clearly he's at the top of this class" range, I think people think of names like Sundstrom, or Korpikoski when they think of a prospect from Sweden or Finland. I think Andersson also fit that mindset at the time.

Lias was also a late riser due to his performance in the SHL play offs, winning the championship with HV71 and he wasn't a passenger on that team either.

I think that's often forgotten after his disappointing tenure so far, how good Lias was in junior hockey and later in the SHL as a draft eligible
 
Not really through.

Andersson was more of an energy guy who went into the hard areas, scored from weird angles, never gave up on the play and jumpstarted his linemates --- including one Elias Pettersson. His game was based around reaction, and effort, and a bit of grittiness.

Lundell is more cerebral. He's more of a playmaker, he's more comfortable passing than shooting at this point, he's bigger and has a larger frame than Andersson at this stage, and he's more efficient of a player on the ice.

Truthfully, he's more similar to Pettersson at the same age than Andersson. Not saying he's going to become Pettersson, but no one is mentioning names like ROR or Horvat when they talk about Lundell.

There are two main challenges we face.

The first is that we get a certain vision in our head and everyone is suddenly compared to that player. Just look at how often Derek Stepan is cited as an example for almost every type of forward who isn't a speed demon.

It's like like wine tasting. When people start they compare wines to discripters they are comfortable with - it tastes sour, it tastes sweet, it tastes acidic, etc. As they experience more, you start hearing notes about plums, or vanilla, or dark berries, or stone, or spice, etc.

The second challenge is that many of the scouting reports out there are as generic as can be. If you read half the stuff out there, you'd think everyone is a good skater, with a good shot, decent size, and good hockey sense. Literally they are copy and paste reports with little to no differential. I won't get into why that is, but we all know it's true.

One of the benefits we have on here, is that people can go a little deeper. We have people who can talk about the nuances, or how someone skates, or what they don't do. And sometimes that's not popular. People pick favorite prospects based on stat lines, or leagues, or a highlight video. And those things, while useful, can be misleading as well. But people form strong opinions from that, and sometimes moving that needle can be very difficult.
Thanks for expanding. Yeah I was just having little fun as there were a a few general things you said in original post that echoed what people like AK posted back then.
 
Thanks for expanding. Yeah I was just having little fun as there were a a few general things you said in original post that echoed what people like AK posted back then.

It's interesting becuse you'd almost think Lundell was a Swedish player by how many comparisons to players from that country we see.

I almost can't help but think if he was a North American kid, you might be hearing about more similarities to someone like Toews. He was another kid who wouldn't have lept off the screen if you looked at highlight footage in 2006.
 
I'm hesitant to be too assertive about my opinions on prospects. It's tough to tell what an 18 year old is going to turn into by the time he's 24 and it's too easy to end up looking stupid when you make brash statements. With that caveat, I would count myself among the people who don't see Lundell's offensive upside.

If you look at the top scorers in the league, at a really high level, I think you can break them into basically three categories.

You've got superior athletes like McDavid and MacKinnon who excel at beating defenders one-on-one.

You've got playmakers like Panarin, Kucherov, or Kane who excel at controlling the puck, buying time, deceiving defenders, and making unexpected passes to open teammates in scoring positions, typically across the ice through opposing defenders.

You've got snipers like Ovechkin, Pastrnak, or Matthews. In general, they excel at taking hard, accurate shots off passes while the goalie is still out of position or shooting through screens where the goalie is unable to pick up the puck. Generally, they do it with defenders in their face or closing in on them quickly. They don't rack up goals by blowing shots past unobstructed, square goalies while defenders give them time and space.

A lot of the best players combine multiple of those skills together.

I don't see Lundell exhibit those skills with much frequency. I think I've watched every point he scored over the past year and the majority of them are either unobstructed passes to open teammates who then made a play or point blank shots where the defense gave him time and space. In general, the kind of things that do not translate well to scoring in the NHL.

There are other red flags too. His progression from 0.5 PPG in Liiga a year ago to 0.64 PPG this year was pretty modest even with an increase in ice time, and I wonder if that doesn't speak to a ceiling in terms of his offensive abilities. Despite being 2nd in his league in Corsi, he was only 77th in points, so while he was great at generating chances, he was pretty mediocre in terms of converting the chances he got into points. Half his goals came on the power play when the defense gave him extra time and space.

I don't mean to come across like I'm really down on Lundell. I'm not. I think the other things everyone is saying about him are true. He's great defensively. He's great at driving play. He's got a good shot. Posting the 2nd highest corsi in a pro league as a pre-draft player is really impressive. I wouldn't be upset at all if the Rangers drafted him (although I wouldn't be in favor of selling off the farm to take him in the top 10). I also could be totally wrong about him and it wouldn't be the first time. But, personally, I just don't see the offensive upside that other people do and it's not because of his nationality or because he's good defensively, it's because I don't think he exhibits the skills that it takes to be a high-scoring player in the NHL.

If you @Joey Bones and @Edge did a podcast, I'd put my life on hold to listen to every episode.

Always on point and always coming with the knowledge.
 
Agree about Buchnevich yet i wonder if moving him is premature.

We kinda know what he is. Buy low, sell high? I wonder what his stats might look like with a Laf on the wing. Buch’s points could really take off making his trade value higher so wondering if keeping him until maybe the deadline is better.

True, but if he is playing on the top line with Zibanejad and this team is in or close to a Playoff spot then I don’t really see him being moved. Also, the teams that would be interested would be playoff teams who aren’t as likely to give up useful roster players and I think there is a strong possibility that this is the last draft where the Rangers are in “draft capital accumulation mode.”
 
Look, I'll put it out there too, I think the board (right, wrong, otherwise) tends to view their Swedish and Finnish players/prospects as "nice two-way types" who pop in 40-50 points and serve in middle six roles.

And, in the board's defense, this team doesn't have a lot of examples to contradict that. So that perception is rooted in multiple generations of exposure and experience. As a result, it can be hard to break from that mindset.

FWIW I saw all of Hedberg and Nilsson and Tomas Sandstrom and they were big deal offensive players for the Rangers though Nilsson didn't last very long. We also had Michael Nylander who had great chemistry with Jaromir Jagr and now we have Zibanejad. That said Jan Erixon and Carl Hagelin were fantastic defensive forwards. Reijo Ruotsolainen was also an excellent offensive defenseman.
 
FWIW I saw all of Hedberg and Nilsson and Tomas Sandstrom and they were big deal offensive players for the Rangers though Nilsson didn't last very long. We also had Michael Nylander who had great chemistry with Jaromir Jagr and now we have Zibanejad. That said Jan Erixon and Carl Hagelin were fantastic defensive forwards. Reijo Ruotsolainen was also an excellent offensive defenseman.

At this point you have to figure anyone under 35 won't really remember the Sandstrom years and beyond.

Nylander was a good playmaker, but he wasn't a popular choice when they first signed him. The board warmed to him eventually, but it wasn't love at first sight.

Zibanejad has earned respect, though maybe a little slower than he should've. I mean you still have people who hedge on him as a first line center and we're not that far removed from people wanting him moved to the RW.

Erixon, Hagelin and Fast are all well-liked, but they fall into that middle six mold that people think of. Many don't mind going down that path with a mid-round pick, but I think if you start drifting into that top-62 range, the comfort level of going with a most Swedish or Finnish playres decreases with each dozen picks you go higher.

Even Pettersson, for as much as we lament not being able to make that pick now, probably would've finished second to Glass in a pre-draft survey around here.
 
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True, but if he is playing on the top line with Zibanejad and this team is in or close to a Playoff spot then I don’t really see him being moved. Also, the teams that would be interested would be playoff teams who aren’t as likely to give up useful roster players and I think there is a strong possibility that this is the last draft where the Rangers are in “draft capital accumulation mode.”

i hear ya. Would it surprise any of us if Buch has a statistically great regular season and puts up a zero in the playoff?
 
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At this point you have to figure anyone under 35 won't really remember the Sandstrom. Nylander was a good playmaker, but he wasn't a popular choice when they first signed him. The board warmed to him eventually, but it wasn't love at first sight.

Zibanejad has earned respect, though maybe a little slower than he should've. I mean you still have people who hedge on him as a first line center and we're not that far removed from people wanting him moved to the RW.

Erixon, Hagelin and Fast are all well-liked, but they fall into that middle six mold that people think of. Many don't mind going down that path with a mid-round pick, but I think if you start drifting into that top-62 range, the comfort level of going with a most Swedish or Finnish playres decreases with each dozen picks you go higher.

Even Pettersson, for as much as we lament not being able to make that pick now, probably would've finished second to Glass in a pre-draft survey around here.

Nilsson and Hedberg of course were linemates along with Bobby Hull with the WHA's Winnipeg Jets. They were arguably the best line in that league for three or four years running. If I remember correctly they were like front page on some of the New York daily's the day Rangers signed them and Nilsson is the reason for the 'Potvin sucks' chant--so it's important New York Rangers lore. Hedberg had to get use to other Rangers centers and he never really found the chemistry he had with Nilsson. I kind of remember there even was talk the Rangers would end up with Hull himself.

As far as Nylander I loved watching him play--he was unusually strong on the puck and evasive and patient with it too even if he wasn't the fastest guy. Between him and Jagr it was almost impossible to get the puck away from them.
 
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For those more familiar than I am with the players, how does Lafreniere compare to a guy like Elias Pettersson?

I don't think you can compare the two. Pettersson is a playmaker with silky smooth hands and great vision. Although Lafreniere also has great vision, he's more of a grind, high tempo, player's player. Think the player to compare him best to is Lecavalier (a better version, IMO).
 
A question I'd have is, if (big IF) the Rangers are as hot for someone like Lundell as been said, would they consider moving a roster player to get him?

He's not gonna play in the NHL next season you assume, but if they think he's close to making an impact at the NHL level, do they trade a roster player for the pick to select him?

I could see it, but I think it depends on that scale of likeness. If they really like him they would do the necessary means to get him.
 
Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida, or Minnesota are teams I could see entertaining a trade down.

I don't think Buffalo will unless they want to start acclimating to Eichel's needs/wants. They're going through a massive management turnover. Florida, also, is going to get a new GM.

Minnesota and Edmonton are good options. Both need a long term, high caliber goalie prospect (EDM more so than MIN). I doubt Minnesota trades out of the top 10.
 
I don't think you can compare the two. Pettersson is a playmaker with silky smooth hands and great vision. Although Lafreniere also has great vision, he's more of a grind, high tempo, player's player. Think the player to compare him best to is Lecavalier (a better version, IMO).
I like this comparison far more than any of the other ones I’ve seen. Lecavalier was awesome. Plus they both came from Rimouski IIRC.

Didn’t Tampa make him the captain when he was like f***ing 19-years-old? :laugh:
 
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I don't think Buffalo will unless they want to start acclimating to Eichel's needs/wants. They're going through a massive management turnover. Florida, also, is going to get a new GM.

Minnesota and Edmonton are good options. Both need a long term, high caliber goalie prospect (EDM more so than MIN). I doubt Minnesota trades out of the top 10.

I could see Buffalo or Edmonton wanting a scoring winger with the intention of turning the corner. Florida, I don’t have a clue. Do they rebuild again or double down on the pieces they have? A new GM... last year they signed Bobrovsky to a deal that was awful before the ink dried while at the same time drafting Spencer Knight. Just seems like a cluster down there.

Yea, I think Minnesota makes that pick. They need young talent.
 
I don't think you can compare the two. Pettersson is a playmaker with silky smooth hands and great vision. Although Lafreniere also has great vision, he's more of a grind, high tempo, player's player. Think the player to compare him best to is Lecavalier (a better version, IMO).

Lecavalier could've been, and should've been, one of the top players in the league. The kid could do just about anything,

It took him a long time to really tap into his full game, and then partially due to injuries, he couldn't quite sustain it.

There was always a feeling that he had more to give. That for as much as the sum of his parts was nice, it wasn't as great as it should've been. There was some belief that he was a guy who needed someone to consistently push him or that he wasn't always driven to be "the guy" on his team.

It's interesting because in many ways, Lafreneire has made observers think the opposite thus far. Part of me thinks that if you gave Lafreniere some of the gifts that Lecavalier had, then you'd have that guy who a lot more people think could be generational. Or the "Michael Jordan of hockey" Lecavalier was unfortunately dubbed.
 
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What pick would we need to get up to to have a chance at Sanderson? He’s gone top 10 right?

At the beginning of the season his name was being brought up as another bloodline in this years draft. At the time it was being discussed if he would even go in the first round. He had a very strong year. Thrusted himself into consideration for 1st defenseman off the board. I think 15-20 Is where he goes.
 
I could see Buffalo or Edmonton wanting a scoring winger with the intention of turning the corner. Florida, I don’t have a clue. Do they rebuild again or double down on the pieces they have? A new GM... last year they signed Bobrovsky to a deal that was awful before the ink dried while at the same time drafting Spencer Knight. Just seems like a cluster down there.

Yea, I think Minnesota makes that pick. They need young talent.

Think Bobrovsky retires before that contract is finished. Not to mention they need a new flourish of talent to come through the system. Too many UFA's/RFA's on that team and you'll see guys like Heponiemi, Borgstrom and Tippet coming in to fill the gaps.
 
At the beginning of the season his name was being brought up as another bloodline in this years draft. At the time it was being discussed if he would even go in the first round. He had a very strong year. Thrusted himself into consideration for 1st defenseman off the board. I think 15-20 Is where he goes.

I'll boldly say he goes between 5-15, very likely within the top 12, and reasonably in the top 10.

I'll also say that I think there's a very strong possibility that 4 defenseman and a goalie go in the top 15.

Now, for obsevers on here, that's significant because it means at least one of the top 16 forwards on a lot of popular lists will be sitting there at 21 --- which is when we start getting into the Rangers neighborhood.

So using McKenzie's "list" as a reference point, the top 16 forwards are:

1. Lafreniere
2. Stutzle
3. Byfield
4. Perfetti
5. Raymond
6. Rossi
7. Holtz
8. Quinn
9. Lundell
10. Mercer
11. Lapierre
12. Holloway
13. Jarvis
14. Amirov
15. Reichel
16. Perrault

If indeed four defensemen and one goalie make the top 15, one of those forwards will be sitting there at 21. If the Rangers were so inclined to move up, say to pick 17, five of those guys would be on the board.

So that's another reason why I am rooting for the pick to be as high as possible, even if it means being disgusted by a team that advances.
 
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