Prospect Info: 2020 Draft #111 - Mitchell Miller (RHD) [Mod Warning post #312]

[rt]

Yeah, this is where I bow out. Once a take this bad gets thrown out into the wild, there's no turning back.

And here I’ve been blissfully unaware that these takes actually existed because I couldn’t see them. I’m like “what the hell are all these people talking about?!? Nobody is saying this shit.“

Now I see it...oye...

 

[MIGs Dog]

A former UND player is saying the school needs to cut their ties. Interested to see how this plays out. Universities are a completely different animal from pro sports.

Former UND player says hockey team should move on from freshman Mitchell Miller | Grand Forks Herald

 

[Alberta Yote]

It's well past the time to punt

 

[Alberta Yote]

Also GO BANTLE. Get that business degree!

 

[Henderson19]

A former UND player is saying the school needs to cut their ties. Interested to see how this plays out. Universities are a completely different animal from pro sports.

Former UND player says hockey team should move on from freshman Mitchell Miller | Grand Forks Herald

Yes, very different from pro sports. UND alumni/donors are obviously passionate observers. It's hard to imagine anyone is feeling great about this incident, and Miller's tie to the University.

 

[Fuhrious]

They already have me one foot out the door with the whole kicking the RT can down the road. Think this is me done buying merch for the team. Had hope when GMBA came in and said the right things but damn...

And yeah, I realize whoop-dee-doo but I'm getting too old for this. Not even a roller coaster of emotion with this team, it's just non-stop low's. Sad that the highlights of the last 20-odd years supporting this team have been the medium-ish stretches where they didn't pop up on TSN for something embarrassing and were non-descript plugs not expected to win anything on the ice but sometimes crapped in other teams cheerios...

 

[RemoAZ]

The NHL and Chayka pretty much "kicked the can" two years down the road by giving/taking away our draft picks. I suspect only us die-hards that actually live here year round will pay attention the next couple years. Unless we get a miracle and a player or four turn out to be a lot better than we think and/or have career years. I think our only shot to be competitive is Kuemper dominates all year and the grit we added is enough to keep up from getting man handled by the physical teams. That certainly won't turn us into a contender but might at least make them worth watching. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment because I'm still hoping for a couple moves to shake up the top six.

 

[FreeMcdavid]

Hockey Question for a minute...

Did Arizona not do their due dillegence and homework regarding Miller?

Almost every media insider on TSN and Sporsnet is reporting that every team except Arizona had Miller on their No Draft List.

Having said that, if Arizona felt so inclinded to take Miller, why did they use their 4th round pick on him? They literally could have used their 204th pick on him.

 

[rt]

Hockey Question for a minute...

Did Arizona not do their due dillegence and homework regarding Miller?

Almost every media insider on TSN and Sporsnet is reporting that every team except Arizona had Miller on their No Draft List.

Having said that, if Arizona felt so inclinded to take Miller, why did they use their 4th round pick on him? They literally could have used their 204th pick on him.

As far as DND lists, I’ve only read that as many as 10 had him categorized in that way. Which included Arizona prior to replacing their scouting staff just ahead of the draft.

Please link your source.

 

[AZviaNJ]

Who are these random people coming on here and completely misrepresenting what I see people posting? Enough already.

Agreed, this topic is available for discussion on the main board and an appropriate forum for non-Coyote fans want to weigh-in.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

is this gonna turn into one of those threads where people no one knows argue with each other? like the friends of friends who get into a fight at a house party, and everyone looks at each other and says "who *are* these guys?"

what's really gonna happen is...the thread will eventually burn itself out, and 3 years from now when he doesn't progress (go ahead, check out the last 15 #111s and see how many you've heard of - in my case 1, Korbinian Holzer) and his rights expire or whatever, someone will bump this thread and we'll all go "haha, wow, what a stupid waste of bandwidth *that* was"

 

[rt]

is this gonna turn into one of those threads where people no one knows argue with each other? like the friends of friends who get into a fight at a house party, and everyone looks at each other and says "who *are* these guys?"

what's really gonna happen is...the thread will eventually burn itself out, and 3 years from now when he doesn't progress (go ahead, check out the last 15 #111s and see how many you've heard of - in my case 1, Korbinian Holzer) and his rights expire or whatever, someone will bump this thread and we'll all go "haha, wow, what a stupid waste of bandwidth *that* was"

He was the highest scoring 18 year old defenseman in the USHL last year and he’s going to an A+ NCAA program in NoDak. So while it’s highly unlikely he ever amounts to anything, he probably has a better shot than most 4th rounders.

I just wish it was a different team that drafted him.

 

[Dead Coyote]

Huh? Scroll my man. Scroll. That’s a 30 page PDF.

Not for me it's not.

 

[Dead Coyote]

I have the incredible urge to bitch at Jakey for his scalding hot take, but I will restrain myself.

Regardless no matter how much other shit you talk about, or how many excuses you make, or how many bad things his parents did or how suspect they are...one thing remains unchanged.

Mitchell Miller did not apologize for his behaviour to the victim directly and continued to taunt him after the verdict. Probably after the community service he did too, though that's just hearsay.

As far as I'm concerned that's all that matters.

 

[rt]

I have the incredible urge to bitch at Jakey for his scalding hot take, but I will restrain myself.

Regardless no matter how much other shit you talk about, or how many excuses you make, or how many bad things his parents did or how suspect they are...one thing remains unchanged.

Mitchell Miller did not apologize for his behaviour to the victim directly and continued to taunt him after the verdict. Probably after the community service he did too, though that's just hearsay.

As far as I'm concerned that's all that matters.

But it’s really not that cut-and-dried. You’re categorizing things as facts that are not facts (not as we know them yet).

We agree generally that Miller behaved in a manner that was heinous. Neither of us want him associated with the Coyotes.

I just disagree with your interpretation of facts (of course based only on what we know), and not with your overall emotion on the subject (are emotions are in agreement, I think).

A more factual representation of what you’ve asserted is more like:

1. Miller and McKie bullied and assaulted IMC for years. Miller’s actions during that time are completely indefensible. I’ll say it again, indefensible. That’s a fact. There’s no defense for what he did. Cut-and-dried.

2. McKie apologized to IMC and family during the final hearing. Miller did not. We do not know why only one boy read a statement at the hearing. Miller instead did send his personal apology letter to IMC and Family and they did, in fact, receive that apology letter. According to them, this was the only evident apology from Miller.

This fact has been consistently misinterpreted because Craig Harris is a terrible journalist. JMC confirmed she got the court ordered apology letter. At least half of the articles out there are conflating the 2016 letter to MC family with the 2020 letter to NHL teams. JMC stated she didn’t get the 2020 letter.

The fact is that Miller apologized via a personal letter in 2016, as required by the court. He did not read an apology statement at the hearing like McKie did, but we don’t know why. That’s the facts.

3. JMC recently stated that two years ago Miller “still taunted him” (IMC)

This item is the only reason any of the soccer stuff was brought up. Items 1 and 2 are not up for debate. We know that Miller tortured IMC. We know that Miller wrote a court ordered apology letter. We know Miller didn’t apologize in a verbal statement at the hearing. We know those things.

For #3 there’s less substance. I’m inclined to believe her. I didn’t see any evidence of her lying about anything in the soccer reports. I found her interpretations of events and her attitude toward her husband’s conduct to be inappropriate and very, very strange.

This doesn’t mean I don’t believe her. It means I wish she gave some more specific detail or context in order for us to interpret what she is saying more completely.

NOTE: I hope nobody too lazy to read through that accuses me of defending Miller or attacking JMC. But I’m sure someone will. To whoever that person ends up being, I want to say to that they are intellectually lazy and I’ll respect them even less when they expose themselves for it.

 

[Alberta Yote]

Yeah Jan Jenik is going to get back playing!

 

[RemoAZ]

There's a lot we don't know. Maybe he didn't read the statement in court because the lawyers thought it was a bad idea for various reasons; he's a poor public speaker...he was embarrassed to break down emotionally in front of people...they didn't want it used against him later in life if he made a lot of money as a professional hockey player...easily could be other reasons. He could be a complete piece of shit or he could turn his life around and become a role model. We don't know and we certainly shouldn't be judge and jury over whether the kid gets a second chance in life. Let his actions as an adult determine his future.

 

[technoviking]

But it’s really not that cut-and-dried. You’re categorizing things as facts that are not facts (not as we know them yet).

We agree generally that Miller behaved in a manner that was heinous. Neither of us want him associated with the Coyotes.

I just disagree with your interpretation of facts (of course based only on what we know), and not with your overall emotion on the subject (are emotions are in agreement, I think).

A more factual representation of what you’ve asserted is more like:

1. Miller and McKie bullied and assaulted IMC for years. Miller’s actions during that time are completely indefensible. I’ll say it again, indefensible. That’s a fact. There’s no defense for what he did. Cut-and-dried.

2. McKie apologized to IMC and family during the final hearing. Miller did not. We do not know why only one boy read a statement at the hearing. Miller instead did send his personal apology letter to IMC and Family and they did, in fact, receive that apology letter. According to them, this was the only evident apology from Miller.

This fact has been consistently misinterpreted because Craig Harris is a terrible journalist. JMC confirmed she got the court ordered apology letter. At least half of the articles out there are conflating the 2016 letter to MC family with the 2020 letter to NHL teams. JMC stated she didn’t get the 2020 letter.

The fact is that Miller apologized via a personal letter in 2016, as required by the court. He did not read an apology statement at the hearing like McKie did, but we don’t know why. That’s the facts.

3. JMC recently stated that two years ago Miller “still taunted him” (IMC)

This item is the only reason any of the soccer stuff was brought up. Items 1 and 2 are not up for debate. We know that Miller tortured IMC. We know that Miller wrote a court ordered apology letter. We know Miller didn’t apologize in a verbal statement at the hearing. We know those things.

For #3 there’s less substance. I’m inclined to believe her. I didn’t see any evidence of her lying about anything in the soccer reports. I found her interpretations of events and her attitude toward her husband’s conduct to be inappropriate and very, very strange.

This doesn’t mean I don’t believe her. It means I wish she gave some more specific detail or context in order for us to interpret what she is saying more completely.

NOTE: I hope nobody too lazy to read through that accuses me of defending Miller or attacking JMC. But I’m sure someone will. To whoever that person ends up being, I want to say to that they are intellectually lazy and I’ll respect them even less when they expose themselves for it.

I’m in full agreement with your post, nothing else really needs to be said.

 

[Jakey53]

There's a lot we don't know. Maybe he didn't read the statement in court because the lawyers thought it was a bad idea for various reasons; he's a poor public speaker...he was embarrassed to break down emotionally in front of people...they didn't want it used against him later in life if he made a lot of money as a professional hockey player...easily could be other reasons. He could be a complete piece of shit or he could turn his life around and become a role model. We don't know and we certainly shouldn't be judge and jury over whether the kid gets a second chance in life. Let his actions as an adult determine his future.

Bingo. Could not have said it any better.

 

[TheLegend]

There are many emerging reports of physical and sexual abuse and racist taunts of young players by coaches, parents and other players and the devastating effect of that abuse on these victims. Indeed, it sometimes continues into university sports. What we may used to have called 'hazing' is now under a spotlight and organizations are taking steps to stop it, weed out offenders and seek redress. And the league itself has established the Hockey Diversity Alliance to begin to address some of these problems.

While this situation is unrelated, it does make me wonder how many players will want to play with Miller or anyone of his character, and whether he would be treated by teammates as a pariah. I just can't help but keep going back to the team's decision to draft him and how stupid it was, on so many levels. The franchise deserves all of the bad press it is currently receiving, this was a very bad decision. I also have to wonder what Bettman thinks of this situation, he can't be happy.

Had a lot of the same thoughts.

Now I can't say if I would have drafted him or not. I would have had to seem him in person first and get a read on him that way. A mass written apology for all 31 teams wouldn't have been enough in itself.

In a normal situation all of these teams would have had an opportunity to meet and interview him directly at the combine (if he was invited). But these aren't normal times. Some teams did do Zoom calls with Miller but that isn't the same. I'm not sure if the Coyotes did one. I would have hoped they did to make a decision like this.

How other players take this?? We'll see what happens at UND. Unless UND decides to drop Miller from their program. But they were also aware of his past when they accepted him into the program.

UND freshman addresses bullying, racism incidents from junior high | Grand Forks Herald

So unless UND backs out of the commitment we may get a to see how others his own age will deal with him. From this article I've linked above they are not going to tolerate any behavior like Miller exhibited four years ago.

 

[TheLegend]

This is an open forum, guys.

There's no "Coyotes Fans Only" sign on the front door.


While some of us periodically go out to the main threads, a lot of us don't and it's not a taboo for fans from other teams to drop in to get a read on what everyone in the local fanbase thinks. A couple have been kicked out already and I will kick out more of you if you can't stick to the subject.

Stick.... to..... the..... subject.

 

[rt]

Noticed the new 31 Thoughts just came out. Anyone know if there's Miller talk?

 

[Bonsai Tree]

This one has troubled me. As a pediatrician, I see the occasional delinquent. This kid's actions were heinous. Sinful.
So here's what I'm wrestling with: How much should a heinous, sinful act of a 14 year old affect his opportunities as an adult? There's a reason why the slate is wiped clean on an adolescent after he turns 18. Some crimes - murder, rape, can follow a child who is convicted as an adult. Should this kid have faced an adult court for what he did? If not, should we leave this now adult alone for what he did as a 14 year old?

 

[rt]

Should this kid have faced an adult court for what he did?

If not, should we leave this now adult alone for what he did as a 14 year old?

Absolutely not. No chance a 14 year old should be charged as an adult for something like this. No way in hell. Would be horrifying precedent.

And yes. He should be left alone about it, at this point. But no 3rd chances. No 3 strikes. He needs to be on his best behavior. Certainly lost all benefit of the doubt or any slack anyone would cut him.

 

[PainForShane]

Haven't been following Coyotes as much as usual recently... caught up on all the posts here, lots of good takes. FWIW good discussion involves different takes and personally I'm glad to read differing opinions.

That said...

To me this seems like a very silly draft pick to make, from both a team and business perspective.

1) Re: team -- assuming Miller makes a professional team (NHL, AHL, or other), what does this do to the dressing room? Any of us who played know that all rookies get hazed to varying degrees, anything from paying for team dinners to being constant Designated Drivers to relatively harmless / funny pranks like what Fleury did during HBO's first 24-7.

With Miller, what happens if / when a black rookie joins the team? Does Miller get a couple of the guys together and decide it's funny to put a noose and a Klan hood in the guy's hotel room while that scene from American History X repeats on the guy's hotel DVD player? I really hope not... but I honestly don't know. Neither do any of the rest of us (incl the Coyotes). This is a question that should not even be considered. But now it is.

As a related point, a few months ago some of us were thinking about trading for Matt Dumba, maybe that's still possible. But now, good luck getting him as a UFA... or any other skilled minority or half-minority players (Seth Jones, Byfield, etc).

2) Re: business, before this pick you could argue we could / should be the most minority-friendly / inclusive team in the league. Phx / AZ as places are heavily Latino, both our owner and CEO are minorities, Gutierrez is on the inclusion committee etc. Now what. Put another way, what do we stand for as an organization? Certainly not minorities. Or at least not treating minorities well.

Instead of being a welcoming home to all minorities, we decided to draft a person who thought it would be fun to wipe some candy in a urinal and give it to someone developmentally challenged like Laila Anderson. And repeatedly called this kid a n*****. Think about that.

This is so much baggage for 4th round pick, especially for a new ownership that's in the press for all the wrong reasons incl the combine scandal, not paying their bills on time etc.

Especially for a 4th round pick who's unlikely to even make the show. Especially if he's not Pavel Datsyuk and there are other players who were about as good as him readily available instead.

I've been shaking my head in disbelief. What a gong show this team is continuing to be