Speculation: 2020-21 LA Kings News/Roster/Rumors Discussion Part VI

[Fishhead]

I just don't think the Kings have the game-changers to win a SC in the next 6-8 years without bringing in another elite player or two, either from the draft or from trade.

All of that is good, but drafting game-changers who flourish early doesn't make a team any more likely to win a cup. Lots of teams do that. You always have to bring in other players. How many game changers did the Kings draft that were on those cup teams? I'd say 4 in Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, and Brown. Only 1 was a top 10 pick. Doughty was great out of the gate, as was Kopitar. Brown didn't start putting it together until he was 23. Quick was a late pick and was in the ECHL when he was 22, didn't become a starter until 25. Yes, goalies are different, but he didn't show anything right away. It's just too early to tell if someone like Turcotte is going to fall on his face or turn into the next Brown.

I'd say that development and depth of assets is far more important because you can use those players to acquire what you need. Some of the Kings most important picks were Gleason, Schenn, and Simmonds None of them were fire out of the gate, but they were key to acquiring cup winning players.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I can’t remember which former Russian player from the Ducks coached in Riverside...Anatoli Semenov? Guy smoked like a chimney. I played roller hockey for former King and Duck Jim Thomson. Energy Performance Hockey! It was him Mikhail Shtalenkov, and Dave Karpa.

Jim Thomson opened up an academy up in Toronto about a decade ago....not sure what happened to it, think he closed it down etc....

 

[No Name The Nameless]

Don't make this about your failed marriage, we're talking hockey here.

Haha. I didn't give her the ring

 

[RocketKing]

Lol...Norwalk! Remember that rink well. Anyone here ever play at Ice Capades Chalet in Costa Mesa? Man, there were some BAD rinks in SoCal back in the day.

Yeah I played Midget and Jr at South Coast and worked there too. The place was a real pit. But I still loved it. LOL. Norwalk had those boards that came up to your knees. We had allot of totally messed up rinks.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Yeah I played Midget and Jr at South Coast and worked there too. The place was a real pit. But I still loved it. LOL. Norwalk had those boards that came up to your knees. We had allot of totally messed up rinks.

You talking about the WSHL, or the Jr C teams that they rostered? What year were you playing JR at South Coast?

 

[Reclamation Project]

Haha. I didn't give her the ring

No ring, just hit it it and quit it.

 

[Herby]

All of that is good, but drafting game-changers who flourish early doesn't make a team any more likely to win a cup. Lots of teams do that. You always have to bring in other players. How many game changers did the Kings draft that were on those cup teams? I'd say 4 in Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, and Brown. Only 1 was a top 10 pick. Doughty was great out of the gate, as was Kopitar. Brown didn't start putting it together until he was 23. Quick was a late pick and was in the ECHL when he was 22, didn't become a starter until 25. Yes, goalies are different, but he didn't show anything right away. It's just too early to tell if someone like Turcotte is going to fall on his face or turn into the next Brown.

I'd say that development and depth of assets is far more important because you can use those players to acquire what you need. Some of the Kings most important picks were Gleason, Schenn, and Simmonds None of them were fire out of the gate, but they were key to acquiring cup winning players.

How can you say the first part? Almost all of those guys were immediate stars with the exception of Quick (goalie), Kucherov (broke out at 21) , Letang (broke out at 21, and was also the last player in this list) and Keith, who is really the only skater on this list who really spent any significant time in the minors.

I love Brown, and he bordered on it at his very best maybe hitting that level for one run in the 2012 playoffs, but no, DB is not at the caliber of player of anyone listed in my post. He was more a complimentary player like Seabrook and Sharp were in Chicago. Brown also made the NHL at 18/19, and was a star in the AHL at 19/20. And that season in the AHL was the polar opposite of this season in the AHL where the taxi squads greatly weakened the league, Brown played in the AHL that was loaded with guys who otherwise would have been in the NHL.

And how many game-changing players like the ones listed above are ever available for trade? Of the 15 players listed, none have been traded and all but one have played their entire career in one place. One is available now, and people balk at the proposed offers, even ones that don't include QB. There is no guarantee, in-fact its unlikely that in the next 5 years a player with Eichel's talent level and under-25 becomes available. The trades the Kings made that helped them win SC's were for complimentary players like Williams, Richards and Carter, not superstars. The complimentary players put them over the top because they had 3 superstars in the lineup. And no, the Kings superstars were no different than the other teams, you can't include goaltenders because as you said, the development path is different. Doughty was a borderline star in his D+1 and a full fledged star bordering on superstar in his D+2, making the Canadian olympic team and being a Norris finalist at barely 20, and Kopitar was an immediate impact player as a 19 year old in his D+2 and if you believe Andy Murray would have been the same in his D+1.

The picks of the guys taken based and my rankings of them for career...

Crosby (1)
Ovechkin (1)
Malkin (2)
Kane (1)
Kopitar (11)
Toews (3)
Hedman (2)
Keith (54)
Doughty (2)
Stamkos (1)
Backstrom (4)
Kucherov (58)
Fleury (1)
Quick (72)
Letang (62)

So yeah, picking in the top 5 matters. The Kings recent rebuild has had two of those picks, which isn't a ton for a rebuild anyways, now if one of those two is a complimentary player and we don't either trade for Eichel or try and bottom out for top 5 picks the next 2-3 years how do we accumulate the elite weapons that are needed to win SC's in the modern NHL?

 

[apocalypse]

Now that I've thought about it, I think LA would really do well to trade for a big time winger. A guy like Panarin or Pastrnak. I think a trade revolving around one of those guys would be Byfield/Turcotte, Kaliyev and a 1st. I think it might do some good to pull off a trade like this. I was formerly of the opinion to hold onto our assets and let them develop but now that I've thought about it, I think it'd be good to trade. Panarin, Pastrnak, Gaudreau, Laine, Marner, maybe Huberdau, maybe Kucherov, a winger that's still youngish.

 

[tomd]

Yup, the teams that have been really good in the last 10 years almost all drafted multiple Hall of Fame caliber players within a few years of each other. That is how you win championships, with difference making offensive players.

Chicago - Kane, Toews, Keith within 5 years of each other. Seabrook and Crawford as nice complimentary pieces. I think the Kings system is full of complimentary pieces like that but really only QB has that big dog potential.

Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Fleury all within three drafts of each other. Two HOF caliber players in one draft. Two legit superstars in back to back years, how? Well a little luck, but they were bad enough where moving up one spot gave them that superstar, they weren't picking 8th.

LA - Also two HOF caliber players in one draft and then followed it up with a third three years later. Some people here love to crap on these guys and try and give credit to secondary pieces but there are zero banners hanging in the rafters if one of those guys isn't here, period.

Washington - Ovechkin and Backstrom within 2 years of each other.

Tampa - Stamkos, Hedman and Kucherov within 3 years of each other.

Does anyone really think the Kings system is going to produce multiple players of this caliber which seems to be the path most traveled to SC championships?

And I agree with the last part, I am more in the trade for Eichel camp because the Kings are bursting at the seams with future 2nd liners, but as I said in my post, I'd be cool with trading the older players and sucking the next 2-3 years and trying to get a player or two who might end up like that. Either option is fine, the thing the Kings can't do is pick 11th or something the next two years.

That ship presumably sailed on Tuesday...destination unknown.

I will say that if Blake is going to trade high caliber picks and prospects this summer then he'd be serious about going all in for the playoffs. He's really got to get 2 top 6 forwards and a top 4 LHD. Spending a lot of assets to get one player like Eichel and not filling the other holes would be a giant step backwards IMO. I assume Blake knows that and will proceed accordingly.

 

[Gjwrams]

How can you say the first part? Almost all of those guys were immediate stars with the exception of Quick (goalie), Kucherov (broke out at 21) , Letang (broke out at 21, and was also the last player in this list) and Keith, who is really the only skater on this list who really spent any significant time in the minors.

I love Brown, and he bordered on it at his very best maybe hitting that level for one run in the 2012 playoffs, but no, DB is not at the caliber of player of anyone listed in my post. He was more a complimentary player like Seabrook and Sharp were in Chicago. Brown also made the NHL at 18/19, and was a star in the AHL at 19/20. And that season in the AHL was the polar opposite of this season in the AHL where the taxi squads greatly weakened the league, Brown played in the AHL that was loaded with guys who otherwise would have been in the NHL.

And how many game-changing players like the ones listed above are ever available for trade? Of the 15 players listed, none have been traded and all but one have played their entire career in one place. One is available now, and people balk at the proposed offers, even ones that don't include QB. There is no guarantee, in-fact its unlikely that in the next 5 years a player with Eichel's talent level and under-25 becomes available. The trades the Kings made that helped them win SC's were for complimentary players like Williams, Richards and Carter, not superstars. The complimentary players put them over the top because they had 3 superstars in the lineup. And no, the Kings superstars were no different than the other teams, you can't include goaltenders because as you said, the development path is different. Doughty was a borderline star in his D+1 and a full fledged star bordering on superstar in his D+2, making the Canadian olympic team and being a Norris finalist at barely 20, and Kopitar was an immediate impact player as a 19 year old in his D+2 and if you believe Andy Murray would have been the same in his D+1.

The picks of the guys taken based and my rankings of them for career...

Crosby (1)
Ovechkin (1)
Malkin (2)
Kane (1)
Kopitar (11)
Toews (3)
Hedman (2)
Keith (54)
Doughty (2)
Stamkos (1)
Backstrom (4)
Kucherov (58)
Fleury (1)
Quick (72)
Letang (62)

So yeah, picking in the top 5 matters. The Kings recent rebuild has had two of those picks, which isn't a ton for a rebuild anyways, now if one of those two is a complimentary player and we don't either trade for Eichel or try and bottom out for top 5 picks the next 2-3 years how do we accumulate the elite weapons that are needed to win SC's in the modern NHL?

Agree. The end of last year and all of this year was just out of the norm. I will say the following.

• I agree we should trade for Eichel (without Byfield in the deal). 1st/Turcotte and pieces. Do NOT overpay!!!!!!
  
• Byfield needs to be playing full time next year with the Kings. There is nothing for him to learn in the AHL.
• Kupari, Kaliyev and/or Fagemo needs to see some time in the show. Let's see if they have some scoring touch.
• I like my future with Eichel/Kopitar/Byfield/JAD much better than Kopitar/Byfield/Turcotte/JAD. I think.
• Vilardi plays out as a RW or is moved somewhere down the road.
• They have to get Maata and McDermid out of the lineup. Get a top 4 LHD.

 

[Herby]

Now that I've thought about it, I think LA would really do well to trade for a big time winger. A guy like Panarin or Pastrnak. I think a trade revolving around one of those guys would be Byfield/Turcotte, Kaliyev and a 1st. I think it might do some good to pull off a trade like this. I was formerly of the opinion to hold onto our assets and let them develop but now that I've thought about it, I think it'd be good to trade. Panarin, Pastrnak, Gaudreau, Laine, Marner, maybe Huberdau, maybe Kucherov, a winger that's still youngish.

Guys like that usually aren't available for trade. Maybe you get Johnny Hockey from Calgary, but he is probably the lowest value player on the list. (other than Laine, who is a reclamation project). That is why so many of us want Eichel, it's very rare that a 24 year old star is available in the NHL.

 

[unicornpig]

even if we do acquire eichel there are questions. do the kings let him perform his surgery of choice and how long will the recovery be.

 

[Herby]

even if we do acquire eichel there are questions. do the kings let him perform his surgery of choice and how long will the recovery be.

No big deal, if they deem Eichel to be to big a risk for injury you just tell Doughty that you expect to miss the playoffs the next 2-3 years and hopefully he asks out. That enables the Kings to not only get additional young assets (picks or players) but to more importantly put the Kings in a position to be really bad the next two years and be able to add players like the ones discussed above.

Even if Doughty himself doesn't bring back a potential star in a trade, if it lets the Kings hopefully end up with a guy like Connor Bedard, Shane Wright, Matvei Michkov or someone like that, it puts the Kings closer to a SC and away from the black hole.

 

[tomd]

No big deal, if they deem Eichel to be to big a risk for injury you just tell Doughty that you expect to miss the playoffs the next 2-3 years and hopefully he asks out. That enables the Kings to not only get additional young assets (picks or players) but to more importantly put the Kings in a position to be really bad the next two years and be able to add players like the ones discussed above.

Even if Doughty himself doesn't bring back a potential star in a trade, if it lets the Kings hopefully end up with a guy like Connor Bedard, Shane Wright, Matvei Michkov or someone like that, it puts the Kings closer to a SC and away from the black hole.

Man I don't see that happening at all. If Eichel isn't the right trade then someone else will be. It is clear that Blake (and AEG) are going to make moves this summer. You'd better hope for a healthy Eichel to be one of them because it's likely that the alternative will be worse and cost a lot anyway. Do you really think the Kings break camp without making 2-3 significant acquisitions via trade or free agency this summer?

 

[apocalypse]

Guys like that usually aren't available for trade. Maybe you get Johnny Hockey from Calgary, but he is probably the lowest value player on the list. (other than Laine, who is a reclamation project). That is why so many of us want Eichel, it's very rare that a 24 year old star is available in the NHL.

I still think you try and pry Pastrnak or Kucherov away. We're set at center.

 

[unicornpig]

I still think you try and pry Pastrnak or Kucherov away. We're set at center.

And why would they trade them. Getting either would be a pipe dream

 

[Herby]

I still think you try and pry Pastrnak or Kucherov away. We're set at center.

For what?

You're talking about two of the best offensive players in the world. Pasta is 24 too, why would they ever consider trading him for unproven players who are only a few years younger?

Superstars are just very rarely traded in the NHL.

 

[Reclamation Project]

I still think you try and pry Pastrnak or Kucherov away. We're set at center.

Kucherov starts with Byfield, Turcotte, AND multiple first round picks. Kucherov is a superstar and untouchable. Never going to happen. No team is going to trade their point per game regular season and playoff player.

 

[Herby]

Man I don't see that happening at all. If Eichel isn't the right trade then someone else will be. It is clear that Blake (and AEG) are going to make moves this summer. You'd better hope for a healthy Eichel to be one of them because it's likely that the alternative will be worse and cost a lot anyway. Do you really think the Kings break camp without making 2-3 significant acquisitions via trade or free agency this summer?

How many players as good as Jack Eichel are ever traded at 24?

The guy had a 45G/95P pace as a 23 year old before the Covid stoppage last year on a garbage team. You could go a decade without seeing someone his age/skill combo traded. He's only available because Buffalo is a complete and total dumpster fire.

Very optimistic and IMO unrealistic to expect that in 2-3 years when people say "the rebuild is ready" that a Jack Eichel type will be available.

 

[Reclamation Project]

His age is very appealing because at a certain point, maybe five years from now, you can flip him and Byfield.

 

[tomd]

How many players as good as Jack Eichel are ever traded at 24?

The guy had a 45G/95P pace as a 23 year old before the Covid stoppage last year on a garbage team. You could go a decade without seeing someone his age/skill combo traded. He's only available because Buffalo is a complete and total dumpster fire.

Very optimistic and IMO unrealistic to expect that in 2-3 years when people say "the rebuild is ready" that a Jack Eichel type will be available.

I totally agree unless one of the following happens:
1. He's not healthy or there is no way to confirm he will be before September
2. Buffalo wants Byfield

If he's not healthy then obviously Blake has to look elsewhere. If Buffalo wants Byfield or "no deal" then Blake has to decide...make the trade or look elsewhere. Either way, the odds that Eichel will be one of the players the Kings acquire this summer are probably 50/50 if not slightly worse (IMO).

 

[Steve Zissou]

Ice Capades Chalet in Costa Mesa is pretty OG. That rink is nostalgic to me since it's where I first started playing ice after growing up playing roller. They had a Pro Shop near there called Hawk Hockey as I recall. One of the few local places that had hockey gear.

Yeah I played Midget and Jr at South Coast and worked there too. The place was a real pit. But I still loved it. LOL. Norwalk had those boards that came up to your knees. We had allot of totally messed up rinks.

Beach City Lightning over here but Midget AA on ::cough:: Jr Ducks. Boy, we sucked ass.

South Coast always put out good teams. And the ice wasn't too shabby.

 

[KINGS17]

Man I don't see that happening at all. If Eichel isn't the right trade then someone else will be. It is clear that Blake (and AEG) are going to make moves this summer. You'd better hope for a healthy Eichel to be one of them because it's likely that the alternative will be worse and cost a lot anyway. Do you really think the Kings break camp without making 2-3 significant acquisitions via trade or free agency this summer?

I am sure hope will make Eichel healthy.

 

[Fishhead]

How can you say the first part? Almost all of those guys were immediate stars with the exception of Quick (goalie), Kucherov (broke out at 21) , Letang (broke out at 21, and was also the last player in this list) and Keith, who is really the only skater on this list who really spent any significant time in the minors.

I love Brown, and he bordered on it at his very best maybe hitting that level for one run in the 2012 playoffs, but no, DB is not at the caliber of player of anyone listed in my post. He was more a complimentary player like Seabrook and Sharp were in Chicago. Brown also made the NHL at 18/19, and was a star in the AHL at 19/20. And that season in the AHL was the polar opposite of this season in the AHL where the taxi squads greatly weakened the league, Brown played in the AHL that was loaded with guys who otherwise would have been in the NHL.

And how many game-changing players like the ones listed above are ever available for trade? Of the 15 players listed, none have been traded and all but one have played their entire career in one place. One is available now, and people balk at the proposed offers, even ones that don't include QB. There is no guarantee, in-fact its unlikely that in the next 5 years a player with Eichel's talent level and under-25 becomes available. The trades the Kings made that helped them win SC's were for complimentary players like Williams, Richards and Carter, not superstars. The complimentary players put them over the top because they had 3 superstars in the lineup. And no, the Kings superstars were no different than the other teams, you can't include goaltenders because as you said, the development path is different. Doughty was a borderline star in his D+1 and a full fledged star bordering on superstar in his D+2, making the Canadian olympic team and being a Norris finalist at barely 20, and Kopitar was an immediate impact player as a 19 year old in his D+2 and if you believe Andy Murray would have been the same in his D+1.

The picks of the guys taken based and my rankings of them for career...

Crosby (1)
Ovechkin (1)
Malkin (2)
Kane (1)
Kopitar (11)
Toews (3)
Hedman (2)
Keith (54)
Doughty (2)
Stamkos (1)
Backstrom (4)
Kucherov (58)
Fleury (1)
Quick (72)
Letang (62)

So yeah, picking in the top 5 matters. The Kings recent rebuild has had two of those picks, which isn't a ton for a rebuild anyways, now if one of those two is a complimentary player and we don't either trade for Eichel or try and bottom out for top 5 picks the next 2-3 years how do we accumulate the elite weapons that are needed to win SC's in the modern NHL?

The first part was simply that there are a lot of game changers who flourished early who haven't won anything, just as many are on teams that haven't won cups than on teams that have won. Nothing more than that.

Picking top 5 matters, but it's not everything. The guys above were picked between 2003-2009. There are 10 listed out of 35, and while a couple more could be added that's still 70% who didn't have that kind of an impact. But my point wasn't that picking early doesn't matter, it's that it is way to early to say the Kings don't have the game-changers necessary just because they aren't flying out of the gate like some others. Look at the Blues who won a couple years ago.

1. Ryan O'Reilly, great player, captain, leader. Broke in the league at 19 and put up two mediocre seasons. Gabe Vilardi broke in at 20, and he missed a crapload of time because of his back. He's put up substantially better numbers than Reilly did early in his career.

2. Jaden Schwartz, very good player, but not game altering - In the AHL at 21, put up 19 points in 39 games. Turcotte put up slightly better numbers despite being a year and a half younger when he started in the AHL.

3. Pietrangelo - Should probably be on the above list, he's a top 5 pick that's a game changer who came out on fire.

4. Tarasenko, in the game changer discussion - Wasn't doing well in the KHL as Turcotte, Byfield, Thomas, or Kaliyev did in the AHL. Different leagues, but the KHL is a lot more wide open, crappy defense, and at the time had the bigger ice surface, All of them are similar age or younger than Tarasenko was. Kaliyev in particular looks a lot better than Tarasenko did early.

And none of that means a whole lot because it's too early to call.

There are also high picks that started well and then fell apart, like Jordan Staal, Gagner, Bogosian, Setoguchi, and Mueller. There's a group of top 10s that scored in the 30 & 40s points wise right away then never improved on that. There's a good sized group of late starters who didn't start well but turned into fantastic players. It's way too early to tell if the Kings missed the boat on a guy like Zegras or Caufield just because Turcotte isn't in the NHL yet, just like it's too early to figure out who the true game-changers from 2019 are.

I know you are high on Zegras but 60 points next year? Sure, it could happen, but don't forget Vilardi was on a better pace as a 20 year old. I'm thinking mid 40's.

 

[FSL KINGS]

Starting to think Eichel isn't the right target. Now if the Oilers get booted in the 1st round, maybe take that Eichel package & see if McDavid wants out.

I'm just kidding of course. Unless the Oilers are serious.