Speculation: 2020-21 LA Kings News/Roster/Rumors Discussion Part VI

[BigKing]

I think Lizotte does everything BUT crush people but his willingness to get in there and GET crushed to make plays is unique and endearing.

I'd take Lizotte over Carrier every day of the week for the rest of my f***ing life, but yeah, I'd love that guy in addition to Blake. Lemieux may be him yet.

But to the boldfaced, I think it's silly to 'punish' Lizotte for being good at this and if anything this board is underselling how important that is NOT because we have guys that can't do it but rather because we were spoiled by guys that can on all lines (ie King, Lewis, etc).

It's endearing for sure...so is Rudy Ruettiger.

Again, I'm not saying Lizotte is trash but I much prefer a guy that is crushing people on the forecheck in a 4th line role v. the guy just getting in on the forecheck with tenacity and his stick when the end result as far as production is the same. Hell...Carrier had 19 points and 213 hits in 71 games last season with under 10 minutes of ice time. How can you look at this team and take Lizotte every time over Carrier? That has to 100% be liking Lizotte because he's a King and not liking Carrier because he's a POS and on Vegas. I totally get it except I feel like you'd be saying the opposite of Carrier was a King and Lizotte was on Vegas. He'd still be a POS but he'd be our POS and we love the smell of our own beef.

This doesn't mean that Lizotte can't be a solid 4th line forward when this team is good (I am on the slightly skeptical side) but holy f*** put some meat on his line. If the rest of the team is going to be soft as shit, I can't have a 4th line where my most aggressive player is the aforementioned Rudy. And just to make it clear: I'm not blaming Lizotte one bit for why this team sucks. I'm far from the "blame the 4th line and 7th D" crowd...those players are usually my dudes!

 

[Schmooley]

Leipsic, a bit, he plays a similar game, Tobias Reider?? Not even the remotely same type of player....

And again, if Thomas, Kupari, Andersson can't beat Lizotte out for ice time....what does that say about them?

I think its too early for you to argue those players cant beat out Lizotte for a spot as they havent been up long enough yet. Andersson almost has as many goals in way less games and is now a winger anyway.
I dont even know if those are the players taking Lizottes place though.
Kopitar, Byfield, Vilardi/Turcotte, JAD. I think thats the future down the middle and all are on the cusp of pushing Lizotte out.
I like Lizotte and its nothing against him.

 

[lumbergh]

I'd take Lizotte or Wagner over Lemieux any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

See I just don't get that. Why? What is Lizotte bringing? Lemieux and Lizotte have about the same points per game, even though Lemieux plays 30% less minutes per game. Lemieux brings physicality and willingness to lay a body. Also will drop the gloves and take no shit from no one.

You can replace Lizotte with any number of warm bodies, but Lemieux actually adds something.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

See I just don't get that. Why? What is Lizotte bringing? Lemieux and Lizotte have about the same points per game, even though Lemieux plays 30% less minutes per game. Lemieux brings physicality and willingness to lay a body. Also will drop the gloves and take no shit from no one.

You can replace Lizotte with any number of warm bodies, but Lemieux actually adds something.

Lemieux doesn't have the motor that Lizotte does...simple as that, Lizotte is involved in the play EVERY shift...there are shifts you don't know Lemieux took....

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I think its too early for you to argue those players cant beat out Lizotte for a spot as they havent been up long enough yet. Andersson almost has as many goals in way less games and is now a winger anyway.
I dont even know if those are the players taking Lizottes place though.
Kopitar, Byfield, Vilardi/Turcotte, JAD. I think thats the future down the middle and all are on the cusp of pushing Lizotte out.
I like Lizotte and its nothing against him.

I'm not saying they can't....I'm saying IF they can't, then what does that say? If they beat him out, they beat him out, but the claim was Lizotte was blocking them...thats nonsense.

 

[Mats26]

Leipsic, a bit, he plays a similar game, Tobias Reider?? Not even the remotely same type of player....

And again, if Thomas, Kupari, Andersson can't beat Lizotte out for ice time....what does that say about them?

It's hard to beat out a player for ice time when they are still in the AHL. But once they are ready do you think Thomas, Kupari, Andersson will stay in the AHL because Lizotte is the long term solution as a 4C? No. They will eventually move him or keep him as a spare forward. I am not even sure he is on their list or priorities to resign, it should be Moore, AA then some D men and another Vet.

 

[King'sPawn]

it's hockey, name me a player that doesn't end up on his ass multiple times

While I think Lizotte faces some unfair criticism, he does fall down a lot. It's a by-product of playing that run-through-the-wall style of play.

How many times does Kopitar get knocked down? You would literally have to take a baseball bat to his head or slewfoot him to get him on his ass. He's very strong on his skates and he doesn't move with reckless abandon.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

While I think Lizotte faces some unfair criticism, he does fall down a lot. It's a by-product of playing that run-through-the-wall style of play.

How many times does Kopitar get knocked down? You would literally have to take a baseball bat to his head or slewfoot him to get him on his ass. He's very strong on his skates and he doesn't move with reckless abandon.

Absolutely, its a by-product of Lizotte's play, but to try and use that as a strike against him, BECAUSE of that play is idiotic at best.

Brown, knocks himself down multiple times, let's knock his play...right?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

It's hard to beat out a player for ice time when they are still in the AHL. But once they are ready do you think Thomas, Kupari, Andersson will stay in the AHL because Lizotte is the long term solution as a 4C? No. They will eventually move him or keep him as a spare forward. I am not even sure he is on their list or priorities to resign, it should be Moore, AA then some D men and another Vet.

Again, if Thomas, Kupari, Andersson whomever can't beat Lizotte out, what does that say about them?

You say it's hard to beat out a player for ice time if they are still in the AHL.....but if they aren't beating him out of ice time, that means A. they aren't ready, or B. they aren't better..

Do you think when they are ready they are gonna stay in the AHL because of Blake Lizotte? Literally no one is making that argument.

 

[King'sPawn]

Absolutely, its a by-product of Lizotte's play, but to try and use that as a strike against him, BECAUSE of that play is idiotic at best.

Brown, knocks himself down multiple times, let's knock his play...right?

Brown doesn't play with reckless abandon, and so he is more deserving of the criticism.

That being said, falling down a lot because you're trying so hard is not a good mark, either. If you fall AND fail in making a play, you take yourself out of the play for that much longer.

Many times, it works for Lizotte. Other times, it's a turnover to the opposition and he takes himself out.

 

[tny760]

Brown, knocks himself down multiple times, let's knock his play...right?

yes!

 

[Fishhead]

The only person responsible for Quick's success is Quick. Lombardi royally f'ed up the goalies with running what 10 or 11 different guys between the pipes for 2 seasons. Playing and trying just about everybody else other that Quick.

That's one way to look at it. The other way is that maybe Quick benefitted from the extra development time and wasn't thrown into the fire on crap teams with terrible defenses. I mean, he was platooning when he was 22 so he wasn't exactly old when he came up. He was in the ECHL a year before with a .905 sv% so he wasn't putting up world class numbers. I would actually argue the opposite, how the Kings managed Quick changed him from an ECHL/AHL tweener into a premier NHL goalie.

Either way it's difficult to say that Lombardi f'ed up the goalies given that was a major strength throughout his tenure. What he did definitely worked.

 

[Fishhead]

The falling down thing seems silly but it can be a good indicator sometimes. Did anyone notice how much Vilardi fell down when he was struggling? Since he's been playing better he hasn't been on his ass nearly as much. It's different for every player though. Sometimes it's reckless play, sometimes it's conditioning, etc.

 

[Docgonzo]

I’ll try and do a fall down counter tonight for the Kings. And tally if they fell down from contact or by themselves. And then we can decide what’s good falling down or bad falling down.

 

[lumbergh]

I’ll try and do a fall down counter tonight for the Kings. And tally if they fell down from contact or by themselves. And then we can decide what’s good falling down or bad falling down.

How is this NOT an advanced stat?

 

[Reaper45]

Maybe he wants to be on his ass on the ice because he’s got a major hemmeroid?

 

[KingsFan7824]

The only person responsible for Quick's success is Quick. Lombardi royally f'ed up the goalies with running what 10 or 11 different guys between the pipes for 2 seasons. Playing and trying just about everybody else other that Quick.

Quick played 2 years in college after getting drafted, and then spend basically one year in the minors before he essentially became a full time NHLer, playing in the most games as a goalie for the Kings that year.

DL messed up with the goalies twice. Once, giving Cloutier a contract right off the bat, although I get the idea in theory. The other time, it wasn't really his mistake(unless you count giving a goalie a 10 year contract), but he got trapped by Jones. He wasn't much of an asset by that point, and then Lucic became available, and he saw one more chance before Kopitar's new deal and age would continue to slowly erode the roster.

 

[Statto]

Lizotte won't be protected.....agreed...but in your lineup, I take Lizotte over Lemieux any day of the week...

Lizotte isn't taking away ice time from JAD next year that's nonsense, and if Thomas can't beat out Lizotte next year...what does that say about Thomas?

I’m a bit of a Thomas fanboy in truth but I see him mostly on the wing at the NHL level. I think he could certainly challenge for a roster spot next year but I think he may be better served playing big minutes in the AHL and develop properly to hit his ceiling as a middle 6 guy, rather than end up on the ‘4th line’.

 

[tomd]

Quick played 2 years in college after getting drafted, and then spend basically one year in the minors before he essentially became a full time NHLer, playing in the most games as a goalie for the Kings that year.

DL messed up with the goalies twice. Once, giving Cloutier a contract right off the bat, although I get the idea in theory. The other time, it wasn't really his mistake(unless you count giving a goalie a 10 year contract), but he got trapped by Jones. He wasn't much of an asset by that point, and then Lucic became available, and he saw one more chance before Kopitar's new deal and age would continue to slowly erode the roster.

The problem with DL's trade for Cloutier was the price he paid to get a mediocre (at best) goalie...a 2nd and a 3rd. The 2nd turned out to be a very high one...33rd overall. If DL had paid what Cloutier was worth (generously a 4th but more likely a 5th) no one would have complained very much. As you noted, he then compounded the problem by signing him to an expensive (at the time) two-year contract (which was ultimately bought out). Those were the issues that had the board in an uproar.

 

[Docgonzo]

How is this NOT an advanced stat?

We will start the trend and in a few years it will be. The next great prospect, yeah he’s great but his Lizotte index is not what you want for a #1 overall.

 

[fivehole32]

That's one way to look at it. The other way is that maybe Quick benefitted from the extra development time and wasn't thrown into the fire on crap teams with terrible defenses. I mean, he was platooning when he was 22 so he wasn't exactly old when he came up. He was in the ECHL a year before with a .905 sv% so he wasn't putting up world class numbers. I would actually argue the opposite, how the Kings managed Quick changed him from an ECHL/AHL tweener into a premier NHL goalie.

Either way it's difficult to say that Lombardi f'ed up the goalies given that was a major strength throughout his tenure. What he did definitely worked.

I'm a huge Quick fan, and I remember the knock on him was being "mr. Softee" as far as letting in weak goal at the most inopportune time. It took him a season or two to lose that moniker. 99% of the league isn't made up with impact players right out of the gate, it takes work on the NHL level to hone a players game. It take management that will allow for that and a player that is tough minded enough to actually work on their game.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Do you also miss Brendan Leipsic, Tobias Reider? Small fast players will little to no hockey IQ are placeholders until they are replaced.
When Thomas, Kupari, Andersson need ice time, it will be Lizotte that is blocking them for the 4c spot.
Lemieux brings an element that we need even as a 13th forward. No need to play MacD... ever.

Leipsic was promptly picked up by a contender, did you forget? So we aren't the only ones that saw value in him until he was banished.

Tobias Reider...my god, I hated that guy.

Calling Lizotte a small fast player "with little to no hockey IQ" is, imo, a really really bad characterization.

When those guys need ice time, if they can't beat Lizotte--that's on them, not him. And I really really don't see Thomas, Kupari as long-term 4Cs, those are break-in moves for them.

It's endearing for sure...so is Rudy Ruettiger.

Again, I'm not saying Lizotte is trash but I much prefer a guy that is crushing people on the forecheck in a 4th line role v. the guy just getting in on the forecheck with tenacity and his stick when the end result as far as production is the same. Hell...Carrier had 19 points and 213 hits in 71 games last season with under 10 minutes of ice time. How can you look at this team and take Lizotte every time over Carrier? That has to 100% be liking Lizotte because he's a King and not liking Carrier because he's a POS and on Vegas. I totally get it except I feel like you'd be saying the opposite of Carrier was a King and Lizotte was on Vegas. He'd still be a POS but he'd be our POS and we love the smell of our own beef.

This doesn't mean that Lizotte can't be a solid 4th line forward when this team is good (I am on the slightly skeptical side) but holy f*** put some meat on his line. If the rest of the team is going to be soft as shit, I can't have a 4th line where my most aggressive player is the aforementioned Rudy. And just to make it clear: I'm not blaming Lizotte one bit for why this team sucks. I'm far from the "blame the 4th line and 7th D" crowd...those players are usually my dudes!

So you're happy with Carrier for getting 19 points? Great! Lizotte's on pace for more, on a far, far worse team in a bad personal year!

The players themselves, no, Lizotte has an assload more utility than Carrier is my point. Carrier would be great on this team especially with the lack of beef. I'd love a 4th line of dudes running people, I'm with you. I don't see why Lizotte couldn't be the C for that line, but that sounds more like a philosophical difference But again--this is blaming Lizotte for the rest of the roster rather than his own abilities. You comparing Lizotte to a 4th liner on a deep Stanley Cup Favorite should tell you something.

 

[BigKing]

Quick played 2 years in college after getting drafted, and then spend basically one year in the minors before he essentially became a full time NHLer, playing in the most games as a goalie for the Kings that year.

DL messed up with the goalies twice. Once, giving Cloutier a contract right off the bat, although I get the idea in theory. The other time, it wasn't really his mistake(unless you count giving a goalie a 10 year contract), but he got trapped by Jones. He wasn't much of an asset by that point, and then Lucic became available, and he saw one more chance before Kopitar's new deal and age would continue to slowly erode the roster.

But it seems wild that Jones could fetch a 1st round pick, right? For DL, he had his goalie in Quick so Jones kind of didn't matter. Enroth actually put up better numbers than Quick in 2016, albeit slightly, and better numbers than Jones did in the back-up role the year before. Jones isn't a guy you want anymore at this point and is pretty much the same cap hit as Quick but with one more year of term.

I guess the mess-up is tossing a guy in a deal for Lucic that got flipped to a rival for a 1st? I guess but, hell, it still seems kind of bonkers to me that Jones could fetch a 1st round pick.

Now, if he got to play the Kings for 82 games straight, he'd be worthy of a Lindros-type package +

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Re: Vilardi, some good quotes from this AM, i'm sure they're in a writeup upcoming somewhere. But he talks about the grind of the season, how hard it is not getting to practice as much, etc



This is an important year in his growth imo.

Edit: ah, they're here:

4/30 Preview - Vitals, lineup possibilities, Miller, Vilardi on toll of first NHL season - LA Kings Insider

 

[BigKing]

@Raccoon Jesus

C'mon now with just the points reference. Carrier delivered 213 hits with 9:52 of ice-time per game over 71 last season to go along with the 19 points. Lizotte had 23 points in 65 games with 13:58 of ice time but only 42 hits. Who has more of an impact? Takeaway/Giveaway figures are better for Carrier as well but, and I'll concede this, there is probably some stupidity going on with the stat guy for the home team at T-Mobile.

Points are closer this year with Lizotte still seeing more ice time.

Regardless, I'm not saying Lizotte can't center a 4th line but I need to have some beef on it. The game is really soft compared to what it used to be but the playoffs still go to another level and these clowns haven't even been able to go to another level in a "spirited" regular season game. If my 4th line isn't going to score--which I don't expect a lot of--then I at least need hitting and not being hemmed in the D-zone the entire time. Lizotte is good at getting the puck deep and then trying to go get it but, again, it sucks that he's the first guy in on the forecheck.

Being a defenseman playing against the Kings is a goddamn vacation.