Prospect Info: 2020-2021 Senators Prospect Watch

[Sens of Anarchy]

The Kleven debate

quotes from 2 NHL scouts (sept 2020)

Scout in favor: “When an NHL coach gets their hands on him they’re going to love him. He’s so hard to play against, he’s mobile, moves it OK, has a big shot. I think he’s going to play for a long time.”

Scout against: “He lacks skill and offensive hockey sense. He doesn’t make any plays. It’s all the size, feet and grit with him.”

Not a lot of breakdown here but ... the NHL scouts comments rarely provide a lot of breakdown..

IMO if you are a good enough hockey player to play USNTDP , represent the USA in U18, U20 international tournaments, are 6'4 , can skate well for your size, can defend and like to play a physical brand of hockey.. even with average or below average puck skills and play making that is plenty for many old school NHL scouts. The internet scouts want to see you make plays , and contribute positively to zone exits and zone entries at a minimum.

Not saying the NHL scouts are wrong; I think they have more realism in their evaluations. There will be play in your end, and you need to be able to defend that , and if you can win board battles and make it hard on the opposition by being physical, there is a place for that in NHL lineups.

Now the projection of Kleven.. if he can become more than that defense only , physical presence ;its going to be a win. Otherwise if he doesn't add some "skill" to his game then , although not a complete loss, its a loss imo in the context of trading up for him.. but that doesn't mean the players you pick instead are going to turn out any better when its all said and done.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

The Kleven debate

quotes from 2 NHL scouts (sept 2020)

Scout in favor: “When an NHL coach gets their hands on him they’re going to love him. He’s so hard to play against, he’s mobile, moves it OK, has a big shot. I think he’s going to play for a long time.”

Scout against: “He lacks skill and offensive hockey sense. He doesn’t make any plays. It’s all the size, feet and grit with him.”

Not a lot of breakdown here but ... the NHL scouts comments rarely provide a lot of breakdown..

IMO if you are a good enough hockey player to play USNTDP , represent the USA in U18, U20 international tournaments, are 6'4 , can skate well for your size, can defend and like to play a physical brand of hockey.. even with average or below average puck skills and play making that is plenty for many old school NHL scouts. The internet scouts want to see you make plays , and contribute positively to zone exits and zone entries at a minimum.

Not saying the NHL scouts are wrong; I think they have more realism in their evaluations. There will be play in your end, and you need to be able to defend that , and if you can win board battles and make it hard on the opposition by being physical, there is a place for that in NHL lineups.

Now the projection of Kleven.. if he can become more than that defense only , physical presence ;its going to be a win. Otherwise if he doesn't add some "skill" to his game then , although not a complete loss, its a loss imo in the context of trading up for him.. but that doesn't mean the players you pick instead are going to turn out any better when its all said and done.

I'm not a fan of Kleven but he has some tools that give him a reasonable chance to play in the NHL.

What I really don't like is essentially giving up 2 second round picks. Devon Toews, an established 26 year old top 4 D was traded for essentially the same package. I think it's safe to say that it's very unlikely that Tyler Kleven becomes a better player than Devon Toews. So why spend the same amount of assets to get the higher risk player?

Chabot - Gudbranson
Toews - Brannstrom
Wolanin - Zaitsev / Brown
Zub / Jaros

Is starting to take shape into a decent NHL D core.

 

[BondraTime]

Think Kleven will have the biggest change of opinion among posters by a gigantic amount this time next year

Edit: Actually probably not, not going to have an offensive stat line

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I'm not a fan of Kleven but he has some tools that give him a reasonable chance to play in the NHL.

What I really don't like is essentially giving up 2 second round picks. Devon Toews, an established 26 year old top 4 D was traded for essentially the same package. I think it's safe to say that it's very unlikely that Tyler Kleven becomes a better player than Devon Toews. So why spend the same amount of assets to get the higher risk player?

Chabot - Gudbranson
Toews - Brannstrom
Wolanin - Zaitsev / Brown
Zub / Jaros

Is starting to take shape into a decent NHL D core.

The value of the picks we gave up was close to 2 late 2nds agreed... At this point I definitely would have preferred Toews. Not sure the Sens move Brannstrom to the right side .. but Toews would have been a big plus to our D lineup immediately. The rich Avalanche got richer on that deal.

People influencing the Sens roster choices obviously identified lack of size , grit, toughness as something to address. Looking at Chabot, Wolanin and Brannstrom as possibles in the lineup .. that is understandable. Things should get more interesting and better as Sanderson and JBD gain spots on the big club.

 

[Xspyrit]

Not far off how I felt about the picks. I really like the top 4.. after that I would have gone a different way. But like this guy says the work that matters most was done at the top

In before .... I'll take NHL scouts opinions over some random twitter analyst any day. lol

But this random twitter analyst has a more reasonnable opinion than some others regarding the Sens draft.

Seeing that the Leafs won the draft very easily in his eyes is pretty telling what kind of evaluation is being applied.

Aren't the Leafs "winning" the draft pretty much every second year? But looking at their best players :

Matthews : 1st OA
Marner : 4th OA
Rielly : 5th OA
Nylander : 8th OA

I mean, are you supposed to miss on those?

Other best players :

Tavares : UFA
T.J. Brodie: UFA
Frederik Andersen : acquired by trade (for a 1st and 2nd)
Jake Muzzin : acquired by trade (for a 1st and 2 prospects)
Ilya Mikheyev (possible) : UFA
Rasmus Sandin (possible) : 29th OA
Timothy Liljegren (possible) : 17th OA

Kadri was also a 7th OA pick

Leafs drafting has been DREADFUL since 2006, outside of the few obvious top-10 picks. Connor Brown is actually their best pick outside of those in a long time. Maybe Dermott too who was a 2nd round pick. Maybe Andreas Johnsson who was a 7th round pick

 

[BondraTime]

But this random twitter analyst has a more reasonnable opinion than some others regarding the Sens draft.



Aren't the Leafs "winning" the draft pretty much every second year? But looking at their best players :

Matthews : 1st OA
Marner : 4th OA
Rielly : 5th OA
Nylander : 8th OA

I mean, are you supposed to miss on those?

Other best players :

Tavares : UFA
T.J. Brodie: UFA
Frederik Andersen : acquired by trade (for a 1st and 2nd)
Jake Muzzin : acquired by trade (for a 1st and 2 prospects)
Ilya Mikheyev (possible) : UFA
Rasmus Sandin (possible) : 29th OA
Timothy Liljegren (possible) : 17th OA

Kadri was also a 7th OA pick

Leafs drafting has been DREADFUL since 2006, outside of the few obvious top-10 picks. Connor Brown is actually their best pick outside of those in a long time. Maybe Dermott too who was a 2nd round pick. Maybe Andreas Johnsson who was a 7th round pick

They drafted 12 players, only 2 were 6 ft and 10 are offensive guys (and ones a goalie). 5 are 5’9 or smaller. It would be considered a great draft here.

 

[Xspyrit]

They drafted 12 players, only 2 were 6 ft and 10 are offensive guys (and ones a goalie). 5 are 5’9 or smaller. It would be considered a great draft here.

So probably a few Francis Perrons and Charles Hudons

Marlies are going to be great.

 

[foggyvisor]

Think Kleven will have the biggest change of opinion among posters by a gigantic amount this time next year

Edit: Actually probably not, not going to have an offensive stat line

Wow, is he THAT bad offensively?

 

[Sweatred]

Who cares about his offence. BoroCop lead our D in goals last year.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Who cares about his offence. BoroCop lead our D in goals last year.

Who cares about his offense at the NHL level for sure. But we should absolutely care about our prospects having some level of offense at the lower levels. VERY few modern NHL players have zero offense in junior/college. Basically if you don't have the skill to produce some at lower levels, you won't be able to perform basic hockey plays at the NHL levels. This is the case for 98% of NHL players.

 

[mianjo]

Todays Prospects games

SParta Praha Chlapic did not play reason unknown.
Jukerit- Abramov did not play injured.
Ilves won 5-4, no points for Thompson, Jarventie 2 min pen for Thompson.
Merilainen Karpat U20. lost 5-3
Graz 99ers , Alsing with 1a won 5-4
Sodertalje, Gustavsson won 6-2
Timra, Lodin 1a won 3-1
Vasterviks, Davidsson lost 4-0
Langnau, Bransstrom losing 4-2 in 3rd. Langnauare in last place.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

I am just playing devil's advocate but take a player like Andreas Englund... I thought he would make it because he moved well for his size. But bottomline, he handled the puck like a live grenade and couldn't make plays at the NHL level. Big guys that can't handle the puck (or are too slow) just can't cut it. Now Boro cop is a really good example of a guy with almost no puck skill that's established himself as a top 6 NHL d-man. But I seem to recall a lot of negativity towards him up until this past season. A lot of HF Sens posters wanted him gone.

If Kleven can develop into a Scott Mayfield type player, we've done well. He's a 6'5 230 pound guy that blocks and hits but isn't asked to handle the puck.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I am just playing devil's advocate but take a player like Andreas Englund... I thought he would make it because he moved well for his size. But bottomline, he handled the puck like a live grenade and couldn't make plays at the NHL level. Big guys that can't handle the puck (or are too slow) just can't cut it. Now Boro cop is a really good example of a guy with almost no puck skill that's established himself as a top 6 NHL d-man. But I seem to recall a lot of negativity towards him up until this past season. A lot of HF Sens posters wanted him gone.

If Kleven can develop into a Scott Mayfield type player, we've done well. He's a 6'5 230 pound guy that blocks and hits but isn't asked to handle the puck.

I'm not saying Kleven won't meet or exceed the team's expectations, but if he shows next to no offense at the NCAA level his chances of being a decent NHLer grow slimmer.

 

[BondraTime]

I am just playing devil's advocate but take a player like Andreas Englund... I thought he would make it because he moved well for his size. But bottomline, he handled the puck like a live grenade and couldn't make plays at the NHL level. Big guys that can't handle the puck (or are too slow) just can't cut it. Now Boro cop is a really good example of a guy with almost no puck skill that's established himself as a top 6 NHL d-man. But I seem to recall a lot of negativity towards him up until this past season. A lot of HF Sens posters wanted him gone.

If Kleven can develop into a Scott Mayfield type player, we've done well. He's a 6'5 230 pound guy that blocks and hits but isn't asked to handle the puck.

Mayfield the past few years is probably the best comparable for Kleven if he keeps developing, though I think Kleven arrives there a year or two earlier.

Kleven is going to be a bottom pairing guy on the best team in the nation at 18 and should put up ~5-10 points in 35ish games.

The next year when UND graduates JBD, Sanderson (In all likelihood), Kiersted and Reiger, Kleven will see a significant uptick in both icetime and role, which I believe we will see Kleven evolve into being considered more of a 2-way guy that is relied on defensively compared to a big defensive specialist with zero offensive ability that he's widely considered now.

In saying that, Brad Berry and UND coaches are on record in saying that Kleven's puck skills were among the best at their practices and scrimmages over the past 4 months.

 

[BondraTime]

I'm not saying Kleven won't meet or exceed the team's expectations, but if he shows next to no offense at the NCAA level his chances of being a decent NHLer grow slimmer.

Ryan Lindgren is already looking like a top 4 guy after not putting up 10 points in a season in the NCAA

These type of D are the ones hated by the online community and loved by NHL teams

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Ryan Lindgren is already looking like a top 4 guy after not putting up 10 points in a season in the NCAA

It happens but it's not common. I mean even Boro had a 19 point in 35 game season in the NCAA.

Like you said in your last post, hopefully Kleven gets some good opportunity in a year or so and shows his stuff.

 

[aragorn]

- Kleven will play at one of the best schools in the US next season for one of the best coaches & we can expect that he will improve significantly, especially his skating. And I expect he will be NHL ready much sooner than most expect in about 3 yrs & improve the team as a whole with his size, strength, toughness & grit. I would much prefer a big tough defenceman on the 3rd pair much more than another small soft one.

- What is the point of having 6 offensively skilled defencemen if none of them can prevent goals or play on the PK, or clear the front of the net or block shots or stand up for teammates & protect our goalie? Isn't four enough? Kleven will bring the toughness Boro gave Ottawa in a much bigger frame. I would much rather Ottawa be the bigger tougher team than have to play against a team like that with small soft defencemen.

- IMO Ottawa definitely needs more size on the backend, they need a couple of guys who can play on the PK, clear the front of the net, block shots, play against & shutdown other team's big lines & drop the gloves when needed. Kleven should be able to do all that & then some. I would much rather have Kleven on the bottom pair than Tychonik who couldn't crack the lineup at the same school. It also shows the importance that the UND places on Kleven & what he can do for them.

- and what happened to trusting the coaches & scouting staff knowing what they are doing? They clearly see something in this guy to think he can be a future shutdown D & every team needs that. IMO this guy is going to help the UND win a National Championship & will develop a great rapport with the other two Ottawa UND defencemen.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Jake Sanderson #3
Shane Pinto #5
Jacob Bernard-Docker #14
Johnny Tychonick #45
Jakov Novak #48
Tyler Kleven #63
Angus Crookshank #100

 

[Sens72]

I know this isn’t a update on a prospect but I just remembered that I saw an article that mentioned that Josh Norris grew up in Germany and speaks fluent German so that might be kinda cool for Stützle in terms of trying to settle in with the team.

 

[BondraTime]

I know this isn’t a update on a prospect but I just remembered that I saw an article that mentioned that Josh Norris grew up in Germany and speaks fluent German so that might be kinda cool for Stützle in terms of trying to settle in with the team.

His dad played there until he was 8, and was a GM until he was 11

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Tyler Kleven has had a lot of praise from those that have coached him.


Fohr claimed that Kleven's ceiling is as high if not higher than Noah Hanifin, Zach Werenski, Charlie McAvoy and Will Butcher.

Even Trent Mann claimed that players on the USNTDP can be put into roles that don't allow them to showcase the full extent of their abilities. The Senators wouldn't have traded up for him if they didn't see a lot of upside in him and were confident that they could help him reach that upside through the development at North Dakota and the Sens development program/coaches. He might end up surprising a lot of people.

 

[BondraTime]

Laughing at Klevin ripping through ND Prep kids as a 15 year old

Shows the difference between legit prospects and very good players

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

It happens but it's not common. I mean even Boro had a 19 point in 35 game season in the NCAA.

Like you said in your last post, hopefully Kleven gets some good opportunity in a year or so and shows his stuff.

To be fair, Boro did that as a 20 yr old on a really bad team. If Kleven is playing in college in 3 seasons, I'm sure he'll be doing at least that much offensively - not that scoring necessarily indicates an edge in either general talent or even translateable offensive talent.

Mayfield the past few years is probably the best comparable for Kleven if he keeps developing, though I think Kleven arrives there a year or two earlier.

Kleven is going to be a bottom pairing guy on the best team in the nation at 18 and should put up ~5-10 points in 35ish games.

The next year when UND graduates JBD, Sanderson (In all likelihood), Kiersted and Reiger, Kleven will see a significant uptick in both icetime and role, which I believe we will see Kleven evolve into being considered more of a 2-way guy that is relied on defensively compared to a big defensive specialist with zero offensive ability that he's widely considered now.

In saying that, Brad Berry and UND coaches are on record in saying that Kleven's puck skills were among the best at their practices and scrimmages over the past 4 months.

Was going to reply to your first comment on this matter to say that his reputation will be helped by graduations after this season as well as a WJC spot, which likely wont happen this year but might well next year. A solid rookie year with expanding responsibilities, the spotlight & experience that comes with the Finals tournament, and more of a leadership role at the start of the 2021-2022 season should all bode well for his chances.

 

[mianjo]

Final 2 prospects today

Daoust's Moncton lost 9-4, Daoust had zero points was -3 and had 2 mins in pens.

Guenette's Val D'Or win 4-3 in OT Guenette has 1g 1a

1

1

+1

1/4

4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[TheDebater]

View attachment 376190
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Future top line and starting goalie.