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Speculation: 2019-20 News/Rumors,Roster thread Post Deadline

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Johnny Utah said:
Surprised Wagner isn't getting more love. 12 goals his first year and 6 his second year - he can fly and has grit.

He should be an everyday player.
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I’m far from sold on him. He has nowhere near the IQ for the NHL and playing on his off wing amplifies it as he forever coughs up the puck because of it. Once our prospects are ready he is gone.
 
Statto said:
I’m far from sold on him. He has nowhere near the IQ for the NHL and playing on his off wing amplifies it as he forever coughs up the puck because of it. Once our prospects are ready he is gone.
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It is an imperfect stat, but he had the same amount of giveaways as Lizotte but both were basically equal in takeaways for a net wash. Pretty good takeaway numbers from them as Lizotte does it with doggedness and Wagner does it by getting in with his speed on the forecheck.

I will say it is a lot easier to remember a blind backhand pass in your own zone that winds up in the net v. a play where Wagner's forecheck or pressure led to a goal. It's like me remembering my bad gambling beats much more than my big wins.

I disagree that he is gone once the prospects are ready because:

a) When is that?
b) Who is that taking his place?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see many prospects in the system built to be 4th line wingers. Not all of the prospects will make it, obviously, and I think Wagner is still above Prohorkin, Amadio, Moore. Even with a fair amount of the prospects making it, there will be other vets that are gone as well. Like, I'm hoping a prospect takes Frk's spot eventually v. someone like Thomas or Fagemo only becoming an 11 minute a night player.

You're right that he isn't a brain surgeon out there, but he also has to be up there for quality chances per minute played, if that is even a stat. The Kings want to be faster so I think they would want to hold on to their fastest player, especially when that speed isn't found in a 5'7" midget.
 
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BigKing said:
It is an imperfect stat, but he had the same amount of giveaways as Lizotte but both were basically equal in takeaways for a net wash. Pretty good takeaway numbers from them as Lizotte does it with doggedness and Wagner does it by getting in with his speed on the forecheck.

I will say it is a lot easier to remember a blind backhand pass in your own zone that winds up in the net v. a play where Wagner's forecheck or pressure led to a goal. It's like me remembering my bad gambling beats much more than my big wins.

I disagree that he is gone once the prospects are ready because:

a) When is that?
b) Who is that taking his place?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see many prospects in the system built to be 4th line wingers. Not all of the prospects will make it, obviously, and I think Wagner is still above Prohorkin, Amadio, Moore. Even with a fair amount of the prospects making it, there will be other vets that are gone as well. Like, I'm hoping a prospect takes Frk's spot eventually v. someone like Thomas or Fagemo only becoming an 11 minute a night player.

You're right that he isn't a brain surgeon out there, but he also has to be up there for quality chances per minute played, if that is even a stat. The Kings want to be faster so I think they would want to hold on to their fastest player, especially when that speed isn't found in a 5'7" midget.
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I’m the first to admit he was my whipping boy at times and strongly felt he needed more time in the AHL to fix his faults. Maybe I’m too harsh, however... . Firstly, It’s not the number of giveaways it’s the nature of them - I lost count of the number of breakdowns caused by Wagner coughing up the puck or turning into trouble on our own blue line. I agree he had his good moments but his decision making has limited the impact of his speed. It’s almost meaningless if he cannot be relied on for a consistent performance level and right now can’t. He’s not a natural finisher and cannot be relied on for secondary scoring which is required if you want to cover his other failings IMO.

In reality guys like Fagemo, Thomas, JAD and Dudas will likely be bottom 6 players that may not be as fast but will be much better players. All 4 could end up on wing and at least 3 will do if they play on the Kings and that’s Wagners spot gone. I also think Luff is a better overall player and he that stayed in the AHL so they could give him the opportunity to develop his game whilst Wagner kept a spot warm.

If he gets to a point where he is reliable defensively and performs consistently then I will change my view. He played a couple of games at LW before the lockdown and looked better there IMO, as playing his off wing seemed to contribute to his defensive issues. So I do see some salvation (in my eyes at least) if they stick with him on that side, although I still think he eventually gets pushed out. Hey, if I’m wrong then awesome because if he beats out those other guys he’s ended up a great player... and that would be a good thing.
 
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Statto said:
I’m the first to admit he was my whipping boy at times and strongly felt he needed more time in the AHL to fix his faults. Maybe I’m too harsh, however... . Firstly, It’s not the number of giveaways it’s the nature of them - I lost count of the number of breakdowns caused by Wagner coughing up the puck or turning into trouble on our own blue line. I agree he had his good moments but his decision making has limited the impact of his speed. It’s almost meaningless if he cannot be relied on for a consistent performance level and right now can’t. He’s not a natural finisher and cannot be relied on for secondary scoring which is required if you want to cover his other failings IMO.

In reality guys like Fagemo, Thomas, JAD and Dudas will likely be bottom 6 players that may not be as fast but will be much better players. All 4 could end up on wing and at least 3 will do if they play on the Kings and that’s Wagners spot gone. I also think Luff is a better overall player and he that stayed in the AHL so they could give him the opportunity to develop his game whilst Wagner kept a spot warm.

If he gets to a point where he is reliable defensively and performs consistently then I will change my view. He played a couple of games at LW before the lockdown and looked better there IMO, as playing his off wing seemed to contribute to his defensive issues. So I do see some salvation (in my eyes at least) if they stick with him on that side, although I still think he eventually gets pushed out. Hey, if I’m wrong then awesome because if he beats out those other guys he’s ended up a great player... and that would be a good thing.
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Fair. You at least had him as a whipping boy for more than just not being able to score on breakaways last year. At the same time, my whipping boys can't really do anything right and every mistake is 10x worse than it is haha.

As for the guys you mentioned, I'd bet a significant amount of money that at least one of them plays less NHL games in their career than Wagner. It is easy to look at Dudas as that guy since he only hovers around PPG in the OHL and he's tiny. Wagner did the same thing in a lower scoring league and then also had that insane playoff run. Dudas is a smarter player, for sure, but there are a lot of small players that are smart that don't make it v. someone that is bigger. I also think Luff is a classic AHL lifer. He has a much better shot than Wagner but his overall game and best attribute can't compare to how elite Wagner's speed is.

When it comes to covering his failings, a better blueline will do wonders for a lot of these guys. The less it is in their own zone, the fewer chances they have to make those mistakes. We start getting guys back there that can make quick breakout passes and his speed is much more weaponized.

The game is a lot softer now but it is still hockey. The Kings aren't going to be winning playoff games rolling out several smaller players in the bottom six that don't wear down the other team's defense over a seven game series. That's actually my biggest issue with the prospect pool: I'm stoked that there is so much talent but I wish there was some snarl to go along with that talent in the forward corp. I guess Turcotte isn't a shrinking violet but I'm talking about something more than that. The game is softer but the last two Cup winners weren't rolling a bunch of softies out there at the skill positions or the bottom six.
 
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Wagner also won't get some of his pressure-forcing turnovers tracked unfortunately, him just getting in there before the opposition is ready is a huge disruption.

Lizotte is my favorite of that crew because he's ALWAYS doing a lot even when he isn't producing. I can't say the same for like Prokhorkin et al.
 
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BigKing said:
Fair. You at least had him as a whipping boy for more than just not being able to score on breakaways last year. At the same time, my whipping boys can't really do anything right and every mistake is 10x worse than it is haha.

As for the guys you mentioned, I'd bet a significant amount of money that at least one of them plays less NHL games in their career than Wagner. It is easy to look at Dudas as that guy since he only hovers around PPG in the OHL and he's tiny. Wagner did the same thing in a lower scoring league and then also had that insane playoff run. Dudas is a smarter player, for sure, but there are a lot of small players that are smart that don't make it v. someone that is bigger. I also think Luff is a classic AHL lifer. He has a much better shot than Wagner but his overall game and best attribute can't compare to how elite Wagner's speed is.

When it comes to covering his failings, a better blueline will do wonders for a lot of these guys. The less it is in their own zone, the fewer chances they have to make those mistakes. We start getting guys back there that can make quick breakout passes and his speed is much more weaponized.

The game is a lot softer now but it is still hockey. The Kings aren't going to be winning playoff games rolling out several smaller players in the bottom six that don't wear down the other team's defense over a seven game series. That's actually my biggest issue with the prospect pool: I'm stoked that there is so much talent but I wish there was some snarl to go along with that talent in the forward corp. I guess Turcotte isn't a shrinking violet but I'm talking about something more than that. The game is softer but the last two Cup winners weren't rolling a bunch of softies out there at the skill positions or the bottom six.
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My biggest issue is him playing his off wing. He just isn’t skilled enough to do so as he cannot pass or take a puck off his backhand, which is what mostly gets him into trouble defensively. His game IQ is my other issue.

His best spell for me was when he played with Lizotte and Kempe, mainly because he was often trying to catch them up on the play. Because they were quick and ahead of him mentally he was rarely the head man which partly negated his decision making as he mostly had to just drive his lane and play off them. However too many times odd man rushes broke down when he fired straight at the chest of a set goalie with Kempe (in the 3 examples I can immediately recall) wide open with what would have been a tap in. Frustrating.

I know I could easily be proven wrong about Wagner and with his speed, which you rightly call elite, I hope so. I just like players to be smart as that covers up a lot of weaknesses in their overall game, Trevor Lewis as a great example. I actually agree on Dudas, as at his size he needs more speed and really importantly more agility... Theo Fleury he ain’t. However, the bottom six do need good smarts in my view and grit in forwards 11-13 can be picked up easily if needed - speed isn’t enough. We will see and I’ll be delighted to be wrong, genuinely.
 
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Wagner is still very young. He has that extra gear and he has size. He showed more grit last year as well And started taking the body more. I would expect future growth as he learns how to use his gifted speed and size on the forecheck and I cant fault the player for being put on the wrong wing. Even if he ends up a career 4th liner that can pitch in on the PK and Move up to the third line on spot occasions it is still a win for where he was drafted and what he costs.
 
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Keep in mind that Wagner is also very young, people loved Roy and Walker this year, they're 4 years older than Wagner. Give him a bit of time to find his game and role and he could be a quality bottom 6 winger, the kind of winger than can make an impact and a difference from the bottom lines which is well worth persisting with because it can be a valuable contribution to the team.
 
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I think we could have and 80 - 85 pt club next year if we played the following lineup consistently.

Iafallo Kopitar Brown
Kaliyev Turcotte Vilardi
Kempe Lizotte Frk
Wagner Prokhorkin Moore
Amadio Carter

Anderson Doughty
Bjornfot Walker
Clague Roy
MacD
 
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FSW/Prime Ticket has also aired some Ducks games from 2007 and the quality of those have also been horrendous. It's as if they somehow don't even have access to the master tapes. It's mystifying how a media & entertainment company can be so sloppy in archiving footage. Perhaps the Lakers and Dodgers were onto something splintering off to have their own networks, and it sounds like the Clippers may be next to do so.
 
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Raccoon Jesus said:
One more + for Wagner is he's spicy, too. Saw him stand up for a few people last year and I dig it.
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I agree. Also like the chirping he was doing as well.

However he can be frustrating to watch at times. Right now he's nice to have on the 4th line but Wags needs to improve or he'll be looking over his shoulder at the next kid ready to have a cup of coffee.
 
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DoktorJeep said:
I think we could have and 80 - 85 pt club next year if we played the following lineup consistently.

Iafallo Kopitar Brown
Kaliyev Turcotte Vilardi
Kempe Lizotte Frk
Wagner Prokhorkin Moore
Amadio Carter

Anderson Doughty
Bjornfot Walker
Clague Roy
MacD
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Our entire 2nd line as rookies isn't a great development strategy, IMO. If that's what our roster looks like at the end of next season because they've been called up throughout the year and stuck, great, but this is the NHL. You don't throw 3 rookies into top 6 minutes on their own, and I doubt Turcotte gets a 2nd line center role from Vilardi right off the bat as well.
 
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BringTheReign said:
Our entire 2nd line as rookies isn't a great development strategy, IMO. If that's what our roster looks like at the end of next season because they've been called up throughout the year and stuck, great, but this is the NHL. You don't throw 3 rookies into top 6 minutes on their own, and I doubt Turcotte gets a 2nd line center role from Vilardi right off the bat as well.
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I would move things around like this:

Kaliyev-Kopitar-Brown (two vets that are defensively responsible, with a rookie known for scoring but not defence)
Carter-Vilardi-Frk (vet with rookie center, and a shooter)
Iafallo-Turcotte-Kempe (two non-rookie wingers (one with puck retrieval skills & scoring prowess and one with speed, and a two-way rookie)
Moore-Lizzotte-Wagner etc.

Hopefully we see a few call ups as well that can mix in the lineup, such as Kupari, Fagemo, Madden, JAD, etc.

The biggest transition year will be 2022-23 when Carter and Brown come off the books. I would like to resign Brown to a very low salary (if he is willing) to play in the bottom 6, and have the skilled new talent take over in the top 6. I think Carter will just retire.
 
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BringTheReign said:
Our entire 2nd line as rookies isn't a great development strategy, IMO. If that's what our roster looks like at the end of next season because they've been called up throughout the year and stuck, great, but this is the NHL. You don't throw 3 rookies into top 6 minutes on their own, and I doubt Turcotte gets a 2nd line center role from Vilardi right off the bat as well.
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AlphaBravo said:
I would move things around like this:

Kaliyev-Kopitar-Brown (two vets that are defensively responsible, with a rookie known for scoring but not defence)
Carter-Vilardi-Frk (vet with rookie center, and a shooter)
Iafallo-Turcotte-Kempe (two non-rookie wingers (one with puck retrieval skills & scoring prowess and one with speed, and a two-way rookie)
Moore-Lizzotte-Wagner etc.

Hopefully we see a few call ups as well that can mix in the lineup, such as Kupari, Fagemo, Madden, JAD, etc.

The biggest transition year will be 2022-23 when Carter and Brown come off the books. I would like to resign Brown to a very low salary (if he is willing) to play in the bottom 6, and have the skilled new talent take over in the top 6. I think Carter will just retire.
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If we put in a bunch of plugs and fillers in for players who have skill but lack experience, I think we see another bottom 5 finish. That doesn’t sound like any real growth. Especially if the plan is to contend for a playoff spot in the 21/22 season.

If the management sets expectations correctly, what is the downside to playing a bunch of kids? If they fail to win, then as long as the environment is good, no one should get down on individuals. And if the team looks like the Red Wings after a month or two, you can send most of them down to the AHL to not waste their season.
 
DoktorJeep said:
If we put in a bunch of plugs and fillers in for players who have skill but lack experience, I think we see another bottom 5 finish. That doesn’t sound like any real growth. Especially if the plan is to contend for a playoff spot in the 21/22 season.

If the management sets expectations correctly, what is the downside to playing a bunch of kids? If they fail to win, then as long as the environment is good, no one should get down on individuals. And if the team looks like the Red Wings after a month or two, you can send most of them down to the AHL to not waste their season.
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Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the kids take over. My concern is having them all on the same 2nd line. It is only the elite, superstar talents than can arrive and immediately dictate play. @AlphaBravo's post above is a way of breaking in the kids that will help them develop/shelter them from being caved in by NHL competition and turning into the Red Wings, as you pointed out.
 
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