2019-20 Kings News/Rumors

[Peter James Bond II]

I am not super anti-Toffoli...I would rather have him, than Pagaeu....but anyone that has seen as much of Coleman and Toffoli, would choose Coleman. (even contracts aside)

That said, I hope the Kings can get a #1 for him...even if the Kings have to add a 3rd or 4th...or B level prospect.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

 

[crassbonanza]

compares more to a 28 yr old Justin Williams.

28 year old Justin Williams had already been a major driver for a Stanley Cup run, and had seasons of 76 and 67 points. Coleman has 94 career points and has played in 5 playoff games. Those two are not comparable at all.

.Coleman is the better player and by a good margin

I can see the argument that you value Coleman's intangibles to Toffoli's scoring, but saying he is better by a good margin is just hyperbole.

Coleman is currently on pace to have a career season, scoring at a .54 points per game, which is .14 higher than his career average of .4 PPG. Toffoli's career PPG is .56 and he has seasons of .71 and .64 PPG. Toffoli is a much more prolific scorer.

I don't know if you are an analytics person, but they also favor Toffoli by a pretty significant margin. By CF, SCF, HDCF, and xGF he is better than Coleman, same by Rel.

Again, Coleman is a high motor player and that has value, that may even make up for the gaps in scoring/possession between the two, but to say he is significantly better is ridiculous.

 

[crassbonanza]

He will be their Justin Williams

I hate to quote you again, but this is also pretty crazy. Williams was brought in to a young team as a veteran leader who had won a Stanley Cup before. Most of the Lightning core is older than Coleman and they have significantly more playoff experience, having gone on a cup run previously.

They just aren't comparable players.

 

[AzKing]

It appears that Toffoli and Martinez are going to remain Plan B's for most teams who are looking for upgrades. When you look at most of the rumors, they tend to focus on guys like Kreider, Pagaeu, Dillon and Vatanen. Unless a team just decides to punt the big bidding wars for them and pivot to a lower price point early, it feels like we won't see movement on our guys until those others are off the board.

 

[dman3474]

We play them this week.

Party pooper

 

[Choralone]

I read an article that was looking analytically at some of the trade candidates. I'll have to find it if I can. Toffoli was fairly high up, but Martinez was at the bottom. A team that trades for Martinez is looking for flexibility and intangibles, because he hasn't been making a case with his actual on-ice performance.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

I hate to quote you again, but this is also pretty crazy. Williams was brought in to a young team as a veteran leader who had won a Stanley Cup before. Most of the Lightning core is older than Coleman and they have significantly more playoff experience, having gone on a cup run previously.

They just aren't comparable players.

Sorry...was unable to think of a better current comp...but Coleman is closer to a Williams type of player than Toffoli is close to Coleman.
TB needed a Coleman type to beat CBUS and they failed on a large scale...but I think they are now favorites with adding him, to beat
the Bruins / Pens / whoever now.

 

[crassbonanza]

Sorry...was unable to think of a better current comp...but Coleman is closer to a Williams type of player than Toffoli is close to Coleman.
TB needed a Coleman type to beat CBUS and they failed on a large scale...but I think they are now favorites with adding him, to beat
the Bruins / Pens / whoever now.

I'm honestly not that sold on this trade. Two 1st round picks is a huge amount to pay for intangibles even though he has an additional year at the end. It'll be very interesting to see where he ends up slotting in the lineup, he is currently 2nd in TOI for the Devils which I can't see repeating on TB. I wonder if that will have an effect on his scoring.

 

[kings11]

I read an article that was looking analytically at some of the trade candidates. I'll have to find it if I can. Toffoli was fairly high up, but Martinez was at the bottom. A team that trades for Martinez is looking for flexibility and intangibles, because he hasn't been making a case with his actual on-ice performance.

Dom L from The Athletic wrote what you’re looking for

 

[Choralone]

Dom L from The Athletic wrote what you’re looking for

Ah, thanks.

I think the limited supply of defensemen vs the increased need will drive up his price, but I don't think it's much to begin with, and that we Kings fans should temper our expectations.

 

[crassbonanza]

I think the limited supply of defensemen vs the increased need will drive up his price, but I don't think it's much to begin with, and that we Kings fans should temper our expectations.

Eh, Dom is a big proponent of GAR, which I assume he based the article off of. If that is the case I wouldn't put too much stock in his rankings. GAR has has some fantastic outliers, among them is having Ovechkin/Patrick Kane ranked in the 200's among forwards in the NHL. I don't think many teams around the league put any stock in it.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Sorry...was unable to think of a better current comp...but Coleman is closer to a Williams type of player than Toffoli is close to Coleman.
TB needed a Coleman type to beat CBUS and they failed on a large scale...but I think they are now favorites with adding him, to beat
the Bruins / Pens / whoever now.

Ew, what?

This is completely overselling intangibles over output.

He’s a 28 year old with a career high of 36 points, dude is literally 1/2 of Justin Williams as a player.

I believe he’s a very good player whose point totals will go up due to actually getting assists in TB, but pretending there’s this entire ocean between Toffoli and basically ANY trade deadline asset, much less Blake Coleman, is the kind of thinking that’s unquantifiable and frankly borderline insane. I get that we’re collectively “down” on any King these days but man, come on.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I'm honestly not that sold on this trade. Two 1st round picks is a huge amount to pay for intangibles even though he has an additional year at the end. It'll be very interesting to see where he ends up slotting in the lineup, he is currently 2nd in TOI for the Devils which I can't see repeating on TB. I wonder if that will have an effect on his scoring.

Two 1st rd picks makes it sound crazy. It's a guy they took late in the 1st last year, and the pick they got from another team for a guy that has 3 goals in 61 career playoff games(career regular season this year aside). If we're doing the trade tree thing, they basically gave up Miller and Foote for Coleman. Coleman has 2 goals in 5 career playoff games. Foote is also a forward, and TB has 7 F's signed for at least the next 2 years. 5 of the 7 have NTC's of some kind, and the other two are Kucherov and Point.

TB is all in for today. How often, and for how much longer, are they going to have this good of a roster? They've already been around for a good 5/6 years with this general group. A good chunk of the roster has either gotten to, or is inching ever closer to 30. Starting to get big cap bumps. Unless they get lucky, a late 1st rd pick isn't likely to extent a window too much. I'm not sure about how big of a price that is to pay.

 

[Martyros]

Toffoli to canucks.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

Two 1st rd picks makes it sound crazy. It's a guy they took late in the 1st last year, and the pick they got from another team for a guy that has 3 goals in 61 career playoff games(career regular season this year aside). If we're doing the trade tree thing, they basically gave up Miller and Foote for Coleman. Coleman has 2 goals in 5 career playoff games. Foote is also a forward, and TB has 7 F's signed for at least the next 2 years. 5 of the 7 have NTC's of some kind, and the other two are Kucherov and Point.

TB is all in for today. How often, and for how much longer, are they going to have this good of a roster? They've already been around for a good 5/6 years with this general group. A good chunk of the roster has either gotten to, or is inching ever closer to 30. Starting to get big cap bumps. Unless they get lucky, a late 1st rd pick isn't likely to extent a window too much. I'm not sure about how big of a price that is to pay.

Then look at it this way - TB got the best under 2 million player in the NHL and have that contract for 1 more year. And the type of player that can help them win a series over the Boston's and Pens.
You're looking at the past and past stats. Coleman is kind of a loate bloomer. So what? My best hockey bud lives in Manhatten and a Devils season seat holder...also said he was the Devils best player this year. So that's 3 on here now.
Brodeur, (one of top posters on HF imo) Drew on lakingsinsider, and my friend Jason, lifelong Devils fan.

 

[KingsOfCali25]

Sorry to take this out of the Vilardi thread but I don't think it belongs taking over the thread.

I think both Carter and Brown should not be back, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. How that it is accomplished...not sure. They are both 35% (at best) of what they both were, 3 years ago.
No, one of the circumstances is to NOT have them around to lead youth, sorry. They are both the worst player on any line you put them on and will only be worse, next year.
2 more years of both? How? Why?

Time for Vilardi, Grundstrom and 2 of: (Fagemo Turcotte, Kaliyev, JAD) Bjornfot and Petersen to take over the 25% of the current team spots. Next season. Period.

I don't think Brown will ever be moved. They might be able to find a taker for Carter in the off season or next TDL but I doubt he'll get moved.im okay with sliding the young guys in but not because the old core is bad. More so if they are ready. I could see...

Iafallo--Kopitar--Brown
Prokhorkin--Vilardi--Frk/Toffoli
Kempe--Carter--Grundstrum
Wagner--Lizotte--Amadio

Maybe put Toffoli on the top line if he come back and move Grundstrum to play with Vilardi and Brown 3rd line

I actually think having players that play and skate roughly the same speed is good. Both players are methodical, half-court offense type of players. It's a good combination. If you can afford to give a combination like that time, they get to know where the other one will be and where they like the puck.

You can't have three snipers or three playmakers on a line, but you can have three slow-ish or three fast players on a line.

I'm okay with it. I just don't think they'll fit together (Vilardi and Toffoli). I see him more with Grundstrum, Prokhorkin, Frk and Carter (veteran type to help ease him in); than Toffoli if he is still on the team.

 

[Mattias]

Toffoli traded to Vancouver.

no retention I’m reading.

Lebrun reported.

 

[crassbonanza]

It's a guy they took late in the 1st last year, and the pick they got from another team for a guy that has 3 goals in 61 career playoff games(career regular season this year aside). If we're doing the trade tree thing, they basically gave up Miller and Foote for Coleman.

So, they traded one of their top prospects and a guy with 57 points this season for Coleman who has 31 points. Miller also has a career PPG of .6 to Coleman's .4 PPG and is younger.

Foote is also a forward, and TB has 7 F's signed for at least the next 2 years. 5 of the 7 have NTC's of some kind, and the other two are Kucherov and Point.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense, in fact I would argue that having high end prospects on ELC's is more valuable when you have so many players on big contracts.

Unless they get lucky, a late 1st rd pick isn't likely to extent a window too much. I'm not sure about how big of a price that is to pay.

That doesn't mean you need to overpay for a middle 6 forward. No matter how you want to present this, the Lightning essentially traded two 1st round picks for Coleman and that is a lot to pay for intangibles. One other aspect about this trade not mentioned is that the Vancouver pick will not be protected next season, if the Canucks fall apart that 1st rounder could be worth a lot.

 

[redcard]

Tyler Madden already injured. Getting ahead of the game.

 

[RocketKing]

Tyler Madden already injured. Getting ahead of the game.

Its only a flesh wound...

 

[The Tikkanen]

Now we can see what Frk can do.

 

[Brodeur]

So, they traded one of their top prospects and a guy with 57 points this season for Coleman who has 31 points. Miller also has a career PPG of .6 to Coleman's .4 PPG and is younger.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense, in fact I would argue that having high end prospects on ELC's is more valuable when you have so many players on big contracts.

The salary cap makes you do seemingly goofy things. Tampa wasn't going to be able to sign Brayden Point this offseason without jettisoning one of their other forwards; Miller was the only one without a NTC, so he was the easiest guy to move. Montreal had approached Point about an offer sheet before they did it with Sebastian Aho.

Looking ahead to next offseason, they'll probably have to move another forward (Palat/Gourde/Johnson) to fit in Sergachev's next deal, so they're probably expecting Coleman to help fill in that void as well. I wouldn't look at Coleman's career PPG since he's worked his way up the ladder the last couple of years. Maybe the most recent example was Alex Burrows circa 2009. Had a breakout year at age 27; I vaguely recall that years later that Mike Gillis said he was offered a 1st rounder for Burrows but he opted to re-sign him instead at that point. Burrows probably had more skill than Coleman, but maybe just an example of a late bloomer who continued to grow.

 

[crassbonanza]

The salary cap makes you do seemingly goofy things. Tampa wasn't going to be able to sign Brayden Point this offseason without jettisoning one of their other forwards; Miller was the only one without a NTC, so he was the easiest guy to move. Montreal had approached Point about an offer sheet before they did it with Sebastian Aho.

Looking ahead to next offseason, they'll probably have to move another forward (Palat/Gourde/Johnson) to fit in Sergachev's next deal, so they're probably expecting Coleman to help fill in that void as well. I wouldn't look at Coleman's career PPG since he's worked his way up the ladder the last couple of years. Maybe the most recent example was Alex Burrows circa 2009. Had a breakout year at age 27; I vaguely recall that years later that Mike Gillis said he was offered a 1st rounder for Burrows but he opted to re-sign him instead at that point. Burrows probably had more skill than Coleman, but maybe just an example of a late bloomer who continued to grow.

I think that is all pretty fair. I know he is a fan favorite, so I wasn't trying to rip on the guy, it just seemed like a lot to me. Speaking of, are Devil's fans warming to Fitzgerald? He has made some shrewd moves lately and seems pretty impressive at least on the trade front.

 

[redcard]

We still have a mile and a half of cap space, would be nice to add more draft stock by eating a few contracts from cap crunched teams at the deadline. However, I'd guess that Blake would be hesitant to spend any more of uncle Phil's money after the Kovalchuk debacle.