2019-20 Kings News/Rumors

[KINGS17]

The Kings will never have nine rookies in the lineup in a single season. That is ridiculous.

Reasonably we should see Vilardi, Petersen, and Anderson-Dolan crack the lineup next season.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Might be alot for one time, true. I am proposing 9 new Kings players, but 3 of them are lottery picks. The rest have either dominated thier peers or will have at least a full season+ of professional Hockey under their belts, or both.

Cal Petersen 2013 RND 5: 6 years of hockey since his draft, 3 AHL seasons
Anderson 2017 RNd 4: 2 college years+1 AHL season
Vilardi 2017 Rnd 1 11th overall: 3 yrs removed from draft, Currently playing in AHL.
Kupari 2018 Rnd 1 20th overall: 2 years removed and 1 in AHL 1 in top Fin pro league.
Turcotte 2019 RND 1 5th overall: high draft pedigree all 3 forwards drafted ahead currently play, and multiple drafted behind him are expected to play next season.
Bjornfot 2019 RND 1 22 Overall: 1 full year of AHL already got a few NHL games under his belt.
Kaliyev 2019 RND 2 33 Overall: 1 yr removed, dominating his peers, Wheeler ranks him 7th beat prospect outside of the NHL and the most dangerous offensive player currently outside of the NHL.
Fagemo 2019 RND 2 50 Overall: 2 full years of SHL experience and dominated his peers in WJ, also was 2018 draft eligible.
Unknown 20/20 RND 1 likely top 5: this depends on who obviously, but multiple options depending on our slot. And players drafted near this slot will undoubtedly be playing in NHL for other teams next season. Not unreasonable to expect ours too.

All of these guys have a legitimate case to be playing in NHL next season. This likely creates our best lineup and imo ramps up their development in a very positive way for their future success. It also allows the Kings to find out what we have and makes The following off-seasons UFA signing period much easier to get right.

9 is a lot. But I can make a strong case for all 9 as individuals. And it's not too hard to find 9 spots on our roster that are ripe for the picking.

I'm concerned if guys like Turcotte can't beat out an Iafallo caliber player a year after his draft, etc...

It's a tough argument, and has to be taken case by case, but I think a lot of people here are SEVERELY underestimating the jump from Major Junior to NHL...let alone the jump from AHL to NHL level.

The game itself is basically the same, but the time that you have to do things, is extremely limited. But to go through your list,

Petersen, yea, I think everyone can agree his time has come, it's finding him a spot.
Anderson, 2 40 game college seasons, and half a season in the AHL is extremely light, I don't seem him competing day in and day out next year, not yet.
Vilardi - Let's get him ONE season healthy first before you go further with him
Kupari - Same thing, needs to get used to the pace/drag of an 80 game season...look at what is happening with Kotkenani of Montreal, and he was a top 3 pick
Turcotte - There are issues with his game right now, he needs to work that out...it doesn't matter what people above him or below him are doing, he's not ready.
Bjornfoot - He might be the closest of the group, but that's a maturity level that I would argue guys like Andersson don't have yet.
Kaliyev - In really really tough spot, can't go to the AHL, so its juniors or NHL, if I were Blake, I'd have a serious discussion with him and the coaches over the off-season, to determine the best route, what good is him playing 6 minutes a game in the NHL?
Fagemo - Again, 40 game seasons, you don't throw a prospect like that into 80 game seasons right away without prepping him....

Yea, it sounds good on paper, you play this many years here, then you go here, play, promote, play, promote,

In real life it doesn't work that way. If you go down the list,

Anderson - 2 players in the 4th round of his draft class have had a cup of coffee......
Vilardi - 2017 draft, but this is the first time he's been healthy
Kupari - with the exception of the first 4 picks, and Quinn Hughes, everyone else has had cups of coffee, that's it.
Bjornfoot - Same as Kupari, Heinola is the only other one to have played so far...
Kaliyev - Not one, but that's to be expected
Fagemo - Same....

I know why people want to see them play, but I don't understand the rush....these are real humans, confidence is a major thing in sport, I don't know why we should take a 19 year old Kaliyev, whose been told, he's a sniper, he has a shot, etc, play him against the best in the world, and wonder what happened to him when he doesn't score right away....

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

The Kings will never have nine rookies in the lineup in a single season. That is ridiculous.

Reasonably we should see Vilardi, Petersen, and Anderson-Dolan crack the lineup next season.

I'm not sold on Vilardi in the NHL yet....I would say Peterson and Anderson-Dolan, as well as Clague become a regular....

 

[crassbonanza]

Kupari - with the exception of the first 4 picks, and Quinn Hughes, everyone else has had cups of coffee, that's it.

That is a bit disingenuous. Hayton has 14 games, Zadina has 33 games, Boqvist has 24 games, Lunedstrom has 30 games, Sandin has 9 games(and is expected to be with the team for a bit), Dobson has 20 games, etc. Quite a few guys have much more than a cup of coffee that you didn't list. A cup of coffee is a game or two, not making it so the team can't slide the ELC.

I know why people want to see them play, but I don't understand the rush....these are real humans, confidence is a major thing in sport, I don't know why we should take a 19 year old Kaliyev, whose been told, he's a sniper, he has a shot, etc, play him against the best in the world, and wonder what happened to him when he doesn't score right away....

Anybody who wonders why he doesn't score right away has their own problems. He very well might not score for a lot for a couple of seasons, but I don't think that is bad for their development. It takes players time to adapt to the NHL and the best place for them to do that is in the NHL. If they can keep up then they should be getting ice time with the Kings.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

That is a bit disingenuous. Hayton has 14 games, Zadina has 33 games, Boqvist has 24 games, Lunedstrom has 30 games, Sandin has 9 games(and is expected to be with the team for a bit), Dobson has 20 games, etc. Quite a few guys have much more than a cup of coffee that you didn't list. A cup of coffee is a game or two, not making it so the team can't slide the ELC.



Anybody who wonders why he doesn't score right away has their own problems. He very well might not score for a lot for a couple of seasons, but I don't think that is bad for their development. It takes players time to adapt to the NHL and the best place for them to do that is in the NHL. If they can keep up then they should be getting ice time with the Kings.

Sorry, disagree, that's EXTREMELY bad for their development.....if you think that a scorer who doesn't score for a couple of seasons, is not going to be affected by that....I don't know what to tell you, thats the #1 way to ruin a prospect.

 

[KingsOfCali25]

Prokhorkin--Kopitar--Brown
Kempe--Carter--Fagemo
Grundstrum--Lizotte--Iafallo
Clifford--Amadio--Wagner
Luff, Kaliyev

Bjornfot--Doughty
Forbort--Walker
MacDermid--Roy
Brickley

Quick
Peterson

Wagner, Grundstrum, Peterson, Luff, Brickley all need to clear waivers next year, so they should be on the Hot List to make the team next season.

 

[crassbonanza]

Sorry, disagree, that's EXTREMELY bad for their development.....if you think that a scorer who doesn't score for a couple of seasons, is not going to be affected by that....I don't know what to tell you, thats the #1 way to ruin a prospect.

Pasta, Huberdeau, JT Miller, TK, Wayne Train, Perron, Draisaitl, Barkov are all examples of guys who developed in the NHL In fact a vast majority of the top scorers in the NHL outside of the top few spent a season or two before fully breaking out. They did not enter the league as elite players which it seems you expect every prospect to do.

It is not extremely bad for players development to learn in the NHL, especially as they enter their 20's.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

See, I think those early years were very important for their over all development and for them becoming the players they are today. Those guys were able to learn how to play in the NHL and allow their offensive game to grow in the right environment. Those guys are both top 10 scorers in the NHL currently, so I think they are examples of the importance of early exposure and developing in the NHL. Do you think Pastrnak would have been even better if he waited two more seasons? He is on pace for 60 goals this season, would he be a 75 goal scorer had he not come over as early?

One other point about developing prospects in the NHL is that they reach their second contract earlier. Pasta has one of the best contracts in the NHL because he got through his ELC before his game fully broke out.

The second point is really good.

The first, I don't even know if I even disagree. It's not conclusive either way for me. And we agree it's case by case. I think we could audit dudes all night, haha. Like I said, I don't know if it would make Pasta better or worse to have waited. You seem to feel that time in the NHL environment is better, I personally GENERALLY feel it's better for them to dominate a lower level. and again, I've run it a few times, just going to plagiarize myself:

"It's not at all surprising to me that most of those guys aren't on the roster as of yet, and while some of the guys that are are a surprise, it's a pleasant surprise, not an indictment of drafting. The number of 18-20 year olds in the NHL is incredibly small and especially so for organizations that don't rush prospects.

Edit: here's the list of 18-20 year olds and why it's no surprise. Guys in parentheses have gotten less than half games:
2001 bday: Three regulars--Hughes, Kakko, Dach. (Bjornfot, Heinola have gotten a taste).
2000 bday: Four regulars--Kotkaniemi, Dahlin, Svechnikov, Farabee. (Dobson, Sandin, Gustafsson, Hayton, Wahlstrom, Boqvist have gotten a taste)
1999 bday: Twelve regulars--Hughes, Tkachuk, Texier, Chytil, Brannstrom, Suzuki, Heiskanen, Thomas, Jokiharju, Glass, Necas, Comtois, Hischier. Only 5 have played all their teams games. 10 more have gotten a cup of coffee.

We have this expectation that tons of guys jump right into the NHL but as I've pointed out before it's usually after 21 when guys break through--as they are typically finishing first year or so of college and last year of so or junior and/or one year of professional hockey at home or overseas. There were only 19 18-20 year old regulars so far this season--there are 23 21-year-old regulars, and an additional 28 who have gotten cups of coffee."


Here are the 21 year olds playing this year that played extensively in the NHL prior to this year:
Laine, Chychrun, Keller, PLD, Sergachev, Girard, Jost, Bratt, Mete, Patrick, (Poolparty), Pettersson, Middlestadt, Howden.

NHL Players Born in 1998 for the rest.

My point overall is only why rush them? There's a long list of dudes who got plugged into slots too soon and either plateaued or only developed one side of their game. Fair, some guys never figure it out, and in some ways it's a chicken-or-egg question, but i look at the list of never-was-es and the guys that did it and succeeded is small, and those that reached their potential is very, VERY small. Why chance it? If the guy can't beat Trevor Lewis for a roster spot, let him wait. The list of successful 18-20 year olds is tiny.

 

[crassbonanza]

The second point is really good.

The first, I don't even know if I even disagree. It's not conclusive either way for me. And we agree it's case by case. I think we could audit dudes all night, haha. Like I said, I don't know if it would make Pasta better or worse to have waited. You seem to feel that time in the NHL environment is better, I personally GENERALLY feel it's better for them to dominate a lower level. and again, I've run it a few times, just going to plagiarize myself:

"It's not at all surprising to me that most of those guys aren't on the roster as of yet, and while some of the guys that are are a surprise, it's a pleasant surprise, not an indictment of drafting. The number of 18-20 year olds in the NHL is incredibly small and especially so for organizations that don't rush prospects.

Edit: here's the list of 18-20 year olds and why it's no surprise. Guys in parentheses have gotten less than half games:
2001 bday: Three regulars--Hughes, Kakko, Dach. (Bjornfot, Heinola have gotten a taste).
2000 bday: Four regulars--Kotkaniemi, Dahlin, Svechnikov, Farabee. (Dobson, Sandin, Gustafsson, Hayton, Wahlstrom, Boqvist have gotten a taste)
1999 bday: Twelve regulars--Hughes, Tkachuk, Texier, Chytil, Brannstrom, Suzuki, Heiskanen, Thomas, Jokiharju, Glass, Necas, Comtois, Hischier. Only 5 have played all their teams games. 10 more have gotten a cup of coffee.

We have this expectation that tons of guys jump right into the NHL but as I've pointed out before it's usually after 21 when guys break through--as they are typically finishing first year or so of college and last year of so or junior and/or one year of professional hockey at home or overseas. There were only 19 18-20 year old regulars so far this season--there are 23 21-year-old regulars, and an additional 28 who have gotten cups of coffee."


Here are the 21 year olds playing this year that played extensively in the NHL prior to this year:
Laine, Chychrun, Keller, PLD, Sergachev, Girard, Jost, Bratt, Mete, Patrick, (Poolparty), Pettersson, Middlestadt, Howden.

NHL Players Born in 1998 for the rest.

My point overall is only why rush them? There's a long list of dudes who got plugged into slots too soon and either plateaued or only developed one side of their game. Fair, some guys never figure it out, and in some ways it's a chicken-or-egg question, but i look at the list of never-was-es and the guys that did it and succeeded is small, and those that reached their potential is very, VERY small. Why chance it? If the guy can't beat Trevor Lewis for a roster spot, let him wait. The list of successful 18-20 year olds is tiny.

I completely see where you are coming from, my argument is more against the old set in stone over marinating concept. My main point is that players can and have succeeding by joining the NHL at young ages and developing there. It also is a pretty key factor in eventually being a high level scorer in my opinion.

For your list, I think it's hard to define what a regular is and what a taste is. From the 2017, '18 and '19 drafts there have been 53 players to play an NHL game. A few of those were only a couple of games(JAD, Bjornfot), but Dobson, Gustafsson, Boqvist, Zadina and a few more are in the 20's. Sandin and Hayton are likely to be with their big league team the whole season as well.

Like I said, I get the trepidation, but I think we need to see what the guys have in the NHL We have a prime opportunity to focus on development and with Ontario sharing a training facility we can easily filter these prospects in and out.

 

[tomd]

I completely see where you are coming from, my argument is more against the old set in stone over marinating concept. My main point is that players can and have succeeding by joining the NHL at young ages and developing there. It also is a pretty key factor in eventually being a high level scorer in my opinion.

For your list, I think it's hard to define what a regular is and what a taste is. From the 2017, '18 and '19 drafts there have been 53 players to play an NHL game. A few of those were only a couple of games(JAD, Bjornfot), but Dobson, Gustafsson, Boqvist, Zadina and a few more are in the 20's. Sandin and Hayton are likely to be with their big league team the whole season as well.

Like I said, I get the trepidation, but I think we need to see what the guys have in the NHL We have a prime opportunity to focus on development and with Ontario sharing a training facility we can easily filter these prospects in and out.

You just had an opportunity to watch JAD for 4 games...he is clearly not ready and yet you'd want to see him in the NHL right now getting manhandled every night? He needs at least the rest of this year and all of next in the AHL before you can even begin thinking about him as an full-time NHL player. And most of the Kings prospects are in the same boat. They are all at least 1-2 years away from making meaningful contributions at the NHL level....and some of them aren't going to make it at all.

Last year there were prominent posters here penciling in Kupari, JAD, Anderson, and Grundstrom into the Kings lineup THIS year. Between the 4 of them they've played a total of 13 games with a grand total of 4 assists. It's the JMFJ syndrome all over again.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I completely see where you are coming from, my argument is more against the old set in stone over marinating concept. My main point is that players can and have succeeding by joining the NHL at young ages and developing there. It also is a pretty key factor in eventually being a high level scorer in my opinion.

For your list, I think it's hard to define what a regular is and what a taste is. From the 2017, '18 and '19 drafts there have been 53 players to play an NHL game. A few of those were only a couple of games(JAD, Bjornfot), but Dobson, Gustafsson, Boqvist, Zadina and a few more are in the 20's. Sandin and Hayton are likely to be with their big league team the whole season as well.

Like I said, I get the trepidation, but I think we need to see what the guys have in the NHL We have a prime opportunity to focus on development and with Ontario sharing a training facility we can easily filter these prospects in and out.

And I totally get where you're coming from because let's be real, the only way to play in the NHL is to...play in the NHL. I definitely don't want guys sitting there longer than necessary, and I'm disappointed we've only seen guys like Clague, Grundstrom, JAD for barely a handful of games--not because they're 'ready,' but they should be splitting time at least.

 

[Emerz]

I occasionally search Pasta's name just to see what others are saying about him, just wanted to offer some thought in to Pasta's development:

It was far from the usual, he came in to Bruins camp his first year and absolutely blew the doors off camp, like I'm talking you could tell he was going to be a superstar just by watching him play only a few games type "blowing the doors off".

Doing stuff like this:

My only opinion on the "marinating vs letting them play if they show they can", is that some guys are clearly ready to be NHL regulars (McAvoy, Pasta), but if you can put players in a position to succeed like the Bruins did with DeBrusk, Heinen and Carlo, your team will be in good shape. By succeed I mean playing them in meaningful spots in the lineup (top6 / top 4 with special teams time).

 

[kingsfan28]

We canned John Steven's too early.

Pearson shouldn't have been moved. Kovalchuk would probably still be one of our top 3 leading scorers if Stevens was the HC.

Pearson was so bad he was traded twice in one season. He was done as a King, no confidence whatsoever. It took his 3rd team in one season for him to get his act straight. It wasn't going to happen as a King.

Firing Steven was also the right thing to do. He was the coach and in charge of getting the team ready for the season. They looked awful in camp, and even worse in the pre-season, which carried right into the start of the regular season. Several of the guys even said they're practices were just awful and unorganized.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Keep in mind I'm not saying they should be here this year. I'm saying next year. So if you don't think they should be here next year and think that my assertion is ridiculous.

That means you think it's silly to put the 5th overall pick from 2019 prior to the 21-22 NHL season. That is truly marinating a 5th overall pick. And that goes for the others, you are extending them out another season. When there are obvious NHL spots to be had. What does that tell you about the status of one of not the best prospect pool in the NHL if they can't beat out players in one of the worst teams, until two years from now? That's far more ridiculous imo, and conservative to a fault.

The reality is (using Turcotte as an example) some prospects may never be the type of guy that drives a line offensively. But they are phenomenal complimentary pieces that can keep pace scoring with their line. Think a bergeron.

Expecting to wait on them to develop into something they aren't could be damaging to their development too. If we are going to wait on Turcotte to become an elite scorer in NCAA before we call him up then maybe we are unrealistically askinghim to be something he's not and shouldn't become. Let him go be the two way beast that can keep pace with high end offensive players in the NHL next year. That's who we drafted him to be right?

Patrice Bergeron was a 2nd round pick in 2003, put up a very modest ppg avg in the Q his draft year, around 38th best. Played the very next season 2003-2004 in the NHL, scored 40 points. They sent him down to the AHL and he had a great season, they sent him back up and he took off.

I don't mind Turcotte receiving permanent development damage by playing playing next season in the NHL nearly as much as I worry about the damage to be incurred by extending out years of college hockey

 

[go4hockey]

Sorry, disagree, that's EXTREMELY bad for their development.....if you think that a scorer who doesn't score for a couple of seasons, is not going to be affected by that....I don't know what to tell you, thats the #1 way to ruin a prospect.

Yep. That’s the Oilers way of doing things, and they have wreaked plenary of young players.

 

[crassbonanza]

You just had an opportunity to watch JAD for 4 games...he is clearly not ready and yet you'd want to see him in the NHL right now getting manhandled every night? He needs at least the rest of this year and all of next in the AHL before you can even begin thinking about him as an full-time NHL player. And most of the Kings prospects are in the same boat. They are all at least 1-2 years away from making meaningful contributions at the NHL level....and some of them aren't going to make it at all.

Last year there were prominent posters here penciling in Kupari, JAD, Anderson, and Grundstrom into the Kings lineup THIS year. Between the 4 of them they've played a total of 13 games with a grand total of 4 assists. It's the JMFJ syndrome all over again.

Well, I didn't think that JAD has been over his head so far and I think these games are valuable for development. I don't think he is a good example to use against me.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Yep. That’s the Oilers way of doing things, and they have wreaked plenary of young players.

Oilers were marinating prospects for years after they drafted them?

 

[Stimpythecat]

I don't agree with trading all the vets. So that means a no on having too many rookies in the lineup. Someone needs to teach the younger guys how to pro hockey.

Also look at the cup years. there were a number of vets on the wrong side of 30 and most were in their mid 30s.

Mitchell - 35, 37
Scuderi - 33
Regehr - 34
Greene - 29, 31

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't mind Turcotte receiving permanent development damage by playing playing next season in the NHL nearly as much as I worry about the damage to be incurred by extending out years of college hockey

Two years of college hockey won't kill someone, particularly a guy who can benefit from bulking up and not getting killed by Kassians every night. And a guy whose scoring has slowed as the season has gone on (mostly after sickness).

That being said I don't think his abilities are being fairly evaluated given the mediocre-at-best and YOUNG team that he's being asked to save. I think he's performed very well for that, and typical to his hockey persona, everyone's looking at Caufield and overlooking Turcotte.

If he goes three then that's unusual and I worry. But I think it's worth really thinking hard about staying one more year of college or turning pro. Definite pros and cons each way.

 

[Rusty Batch]

I don't agree with trading all the vets. So that means a no on having too many rookies in the lineup. Someone needs to teach the younger guys how to pro hockey.

Also look at the cup years. there were a number of vets on the wrong side of 30 and most were in their mid 30s.

Mitchell - 35, 37
Scuderi - 33
Regehr - 34
Greene - 29, 31

I want to leave Kopitar, Carter, Doughty, Martinez, amongst other NHL vets. I'm not terribly opposed to keeping Brown over a guy like Wagner either for this purpose.

 

[apadilla]

Prokhorkin--Kopitar--Brown
Kempe--Carter--Fagemo
Grundstrum--Lizotte--Iafallo
Clifford--Amadio--Wagner
Luff, Kaliyev

Bjornfot--Doughty
Forbort--Walker
MacDermid--Roy
Brickley

Quick
Peterson

Wagner, Grundstrum, Peterson, Luff, Brickley all need to clear waivers next year, so they should be on the Hot List to make the team next season.

The Big Mac sure has earned that spot.

 

[go4hockey]

Oilers were marinating prospects for years after they drafted them?

No they drafted kids and threw them right onto the NHL lineup even if many of them needed some seasoning.

 

[tomd]

Well, I didn't think that JAD has been over his head so far and I think these games are valuable for development. I don't think he is a good example to use against me.

JAD was somewhere between ineffective and invisible. I've been watching hockey for decades and have seen far more young players destroyed by being rushed into an NHL lineup than kept in the AHL for an extra year.

 

[raswilliam]

I don't agree with trading all the vets. So that means a no on having too many rookies in the lineup. Someone needs to teach the younger guys how to pro hockey.

Also look at the cup years. there were a number of vets on the wrong side of 30 and most were in their mid 30s.

Mitchell - 35, 37
Scuderi - 33
Regehr - 34
Greene - 29, 31

Mitchell was only on the 2012 championship team.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

Mitchell was only on the 2012 championship team.

No, he wasn’t. He was on both.

2013-14 Los Angeles Kings Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com