johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
- Aug 2, 2005
- 21,579
- 19,146
I can't tell if this is a joke or not.
2019-20 Kings News/Rumors
- Thread starter Ziggy Stardust
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KingsFan7824
Registered User
- Dec 4, 2003
- 19,541
- 7,615
Kubalik has always succeeded elsewhere. You have no attachment, but can't let go of Kovalchuk and Pearson. Kovalchuk, who so many say it was a mistake to sign him at all. And Pearson, of course part of the next group that never was. Keep pining for them though, I guess? Are we going to miss Toffoli next? I really want to see those future posts.
They can't nuke it. Thank the cap for that. Although they did get rid of Pearson, Muzzin, Phaneuf, and Kovalchuk. They haven't done nothing. They're going to trade some more guys. Some more guys won't get new contracts.
Probably not. But its likely the most talented lineup we can assemble without spending money in FA. And it might be the best for the development of our prospects. Sick of hearing about how our prospects need to spend 2-3 after their draft year before they can make the big team. Why? Not like the players on the Kings have well rounded games, or have more talent. Most of the Kings roster is awful two-way.
And if it's because of development then why did most of the good players in the NHL start in the league by the age of 19 or 20?
Did we just draft a bunch of future 3rd liners that need 3 years of development prior to getting called up?
It's not a joke, best home grown kings players of the past 15 years, that won us two cups. Kopitar, Doughty and Brown all were full time NHLers as 19 yr olds. They joined a bad kings team and it didnt hurt their development.
There is an old mindset that playing in lower levels for longer leads to better development and it gets repeated all over message boards. When you look at the numbers, that really doesn't seem to be the case, especially with forwards. If your high end talent isn't in the NHL by their age 20 season they aren't likely to pan out as high end talent.
Why nuke it when your already achieving 30th as it is. They are on track with the perfect amount of suck, the team is in most games but lacks finish and results.
You keep around a small core of vets to mentor the kids and sell off expiring contracts. If you haven't noticed were down over 10 million in cap next season so there is no requirement to be good before then so worrying about who's here until then is insignificant. The kids still need players to learn off and pick their brains on how to be successful in the Nhl. If you nuke everyone it's just kids teaching kids and you end up in situations where you have a lot of high draft picks that never develop to their potential like a whole lot of other teams who've tanked for years but never get better.
If were going to suck, you keep some vets around for that period and they teach the kids to take over their role. That way it's the vets who suck and it's the kids coming through, improving and taking over their roles. If you take out the sucking vets, it's the kids who suck and they won't develop because they're left trying play a 1c role when they're not ready for it.
You keep around a small core of vets to mentor the kids and sell off expiring contracts. If you haven't noticed were down over 10 million in cap next season so there is no requirement to be good before then so worrying about who's here until then is insignificant. The kids still need players to learn off and pick their brains on how to be successful in the Nhl. If you nuke everyone it's just kids teaching kids and you end up in situations where you have a lot of high draft picks that never develop to their potential like a whole lot of other teams who've tanked for years but never get better.
If were going to suck, you keep some vets around for that period and they teach the kids to take over their role. That way it's the vets who suck and it's the kids coming through, improving and taking over their roles. If you take out the sucking vets, it's the kids who suck and they won't develop because they're left trying play a 1c role when they're not ready for it.
Agreed and I don't get where that opinion comes from. I'd like to see the numbers that back up that outdated opinion because I see lots of players that developed very well and started in the NHL as 18/20 yr olds
yeah, but...not all at the same time. And those guys are all lottery picks.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
This was expected with the Kings having a 10-day break.
Technically, this was more of an 18-day break though given how they went on vacation starting with the most recent road trip.
Technically, this was more of an 18-day break though given how they went on vacation starting with the most recent road trip.
About a week ago I looked at the top 50 scorers from this season. From that list there were only 4 players who hadn't made the NHL by their age 20 season and they were all outside the top 25. One was Wheeler, who purposefully avoided the NHL because he didn't want to sign with the Yotes. One was Kuznetsov, who was in the KHL at 17. That only leaves Rust and Guentzel as late developers from that list of 50.
KingsOfCali25
Start up the Tank!
I don't think that they have to "over develop " in the AHL, but I don't think many are ready for the NHL. And I don't want to be another Edmonton that just throws all the prospects in the NHL to watch them stall in development. It's definitely a thin line but our prospects aren't ready. Maybe 2 or 3 might make the team but not as many as you have. Let them get a chance to settle into the NHL.
Why do you think entering the league early negatively affects development? Do you believe it is a confidence thing? Do you believe it is an ice time issue?
Further, how do you know that our prospects aren't ready? What exactly do you think Kaliyev, Turcotte, and Vilardi would gain by being in the AHL next season?
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
I know you're not asking me but there are more than enough--even perfectly current--examples of teams whose 'strategy' is 'just tank' and then 'put everyone in the NHL immediately with no insulation' and outside of the true generational players in McDavid they're getting crushed and/or arguably aren't developing properly. I don't believe it's a confidence thing, I think it's that playing 30 minutes a game dominating your peers is a long way away from walking into a league vs. the best men in the world, there is a learning curve to being a pro.
I don't think our prospects were ready this year because none of them impressed at camp. Pretty simple. The jobs were there for the taking. But I think those three in particular would do better in true top six minutes with a few NHL visits rather than just inserting them into the bottom six with limited time and asking them not to be liabilities.
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
- Jul 1, 2003
- 23,238
- 24,229
I always love reviving discussions of throwing young players to the wolves.
Time for a break.
Time for a break.
How much of that lack us success from prospects is from lack of skill though? Pool Party was drafted right behind Laine and Matthews, they both entered then NHL at 18 and had no problem with development. Often times with forwards, the best men in the world are their peers. I do agree that there is a learning curve with being a pro, but I don't think you hold a guy back because of an old fashioned notion of paying your dues at each level. Look at guys like Robert Thomas, Travis Konecny, or Wayne Simmonds. They all entered at 19 and learned how to be pros in the bottom 6, allowing them to develop their offensive game with the big league team.
If a guy isn't ready, he isn't ready, but I don't think being in the AHL is any better than being with the Kings for those guys. Especially with a team that doesn't have expectations.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
I'm definitely not saying 'hold them back just because,' because I agree--if they're ready, they're ready. Pool party might just be a bust, and that happens; but Laine has most certainly struggled immensely and Matthews is amazing but can't stay healthy. But those guys are all different anyway, those are top picks. But for any of the Thomas', Konecnys, and so on, I think it's important that they're in an environment where they have to earn a spot. I get the notion you and most agree with that. Some teams are basically just spitting half of their draft classes immediately onto a roster then wondering what happened. For us, some of these kids couldn't even beat out the lifeless schlubs to 'win' a roster spot; Blake Lizotte did. He earned it. Let the others earn it too is all I'm saying. But then you have some cases like Turcotte--do I think he could play in the NHL now? Absolutely. Is it really in his best interest? I'd say absolutely not. The guy wants to play reckless physically and if he can't dominate college offense what's the rush?
Now the other actual issue that I think we all agree on is that there are a lot of corpses on the roster that need to move regardless.
Edit: relatedly, man, remember when Loktionov had his arm ripped off by just stiff arming a man? That's the kind of stuff an 18 year old vs. a 21 year old can have a difference.
I don't think there's a hard and fast rule but I'm wary of fast tracking guys. You don't learn to dominate on offense if your line is getting caved in nightly and you don't have the puck to learn.
Sol
Smile
- Jun 30, 2017
- 25,052
- 21,323
Here's a hypothetical. Let's assume we send Turcotte and Kaliyev to world Juniors next year. Which version of them does better?
A.) Kaliyev plays first couple months of the season in OHL and Turcotte for Wisconsin.
B.) They play first two months in NHL on Kopis wing.
A.) Kaliyev plays first couple months of the season in OHL and Turcotte for Wisconsin.
B.) They play first two months in NHL on Kopis wing.
I think this is the main point of our disagreement with regards to this issue. I totally understand where you are coming from, but I personally don't believe that it is absolutely not in his best interest to spend time in the NHL next year. Look at Pastrnak, he spent his post draft season in the SHL where he did well, but didn't dominate. He came over as a 19 year old and spent time with the Bruins, making the Bruins and doing most of his development with them. He now is one of the best players in the entire league. Kyle Connor, Huberdeau, Perron, Miller, Horvat all have similar stories of having their primary development in the NHL. I think Brayden Schenn actually had his development stunted by being sent back to juniors,
I just personally believe that it is best to get guys exposure to the NHL sooner rather than later if they are expected to be a top 6 forward. I do agree with you that there is no one size fits all development method and each prospect is different though.
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
Pastrnak is actually a very good example of that. Did it really help him getting to the NHL sooner? Ignoring the SHL, he came to the nhl at 19, 20--and both seasons were 45-point paces and shortened by injury. Hits 21, and boom--75 games, 70 points. Would it have hurt him to wait? Would it have helped him to come earlier? Dude was 165 pounds soaking wet and didn't play a physical game. It's very debateable. Huberdeau as well--had a 28 point, 69 game campaign at age 19. What's the rush? Like sure there are some guys that overrun juniors--a guy like Kaliyev might be a good example, what would he have to learn next year>--and need pro development, that 'tweener' year where they aren't pro-eligible screws a lot of people. But I think they're the exception. And it's very rare a guy comes in at 18-19 and makes an actual impact and it's debateable that it's good for them to be there. I know it's just a philosophical difference and we seem to agree on a lot of the middle ground, I just don't think a guy simply existing in the NHL for a couple of years instead of dominating lower levels for a couple of years is necessarily better.
- May 9, 2014
- 5,835
- 8,247
I agree the team are horrible to watch, however what are the expectations for where we should be? What is Blake expected to do with the contract situation and the vets we want to jettison? We need to get realistic.
Everyone lists a bunch of players as garbage on a team likely to finish 29th or 30th, whilst simultaneously expecting a bunch of decent picks for the afore mentioned garbage. People then want the youth to be developed properly but at the same time they aren’t being called up quickly enough. It’s all contradictory.
There is too much hyperbole about our future being hopeless. The reality is we need to be patient as our rebuild isn’t going to be over by this time next year. Blake inherited an empty cupboard and too many unmovable contracts. He’s restocked the pipeline which is a big plus that gets underestimated at times. The speed that he’s rebuilt the system and the quality we have there is a credit to him. There are plenty of teams envious at how well and quickly it’s been done.
However, until he moves the ‘garbage’ our future won’t properly start to take shape and to move them somebody needs to actually want them, and that’s before discussing the asking price. The reality is that he will not move them all this TDL or even before the start of next season. These are not prime pieces, yet people are talking about various hauls of 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. It’s going to take time and patience to move these guys and getting a remotely decent haul is going to take some serious wheeling and dealing. Also we will likely have to reset our expectations on what we get for them, if anything. They just aren’t worth much... I pray I’m wrong.
So we likely don’t see a new identity emerge until the 2021 TDL and if it happens sooner Blakes done a fine job.
Everyone lists a bunch of players as garbage on a team likely to finish 29th or 30th, whilst simultaneously expecting a bunch of decent picks for the afore mentioned garbage. People then want the youth to be developed properly but at the same time they aren’t being called up quickly enough. It’s all contradictory.
There is too much hyperbole about our future being hopeless. The reality is we need to be patient as our rebuild isn’t going to be over by this time next year. Blake inherited an empty cupboard and too many unmovable contracts. He’s restocked the pipeline which is a big plus that gets underestimated at times. The speed that he’s rebuilt the system and the quality we have there is a credit to him. There are plenty of teams envious at how well and quickly it’s been done.
However, until he moves the ‘garbage’ our future won’t properly start to take shape and to move them somebody needs to actually want them, and that’s before discussing the asking price. The reality is that he will not move them all this TDL or even before the start of next season. These are not prime pieces, yet people are talking about various hauls of 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. It’s going to take time and patience to move these guys and getting a remotely decent haul is going to take some serious wheeling and dealing. Also we will likely have to reset our expectations on what we get for them, if anything. They just aren’t worth much... I pray I’m wrong.
So we likely don’t see a new identity emerge until the 2021 TDL and if it happens sooner Blakes done a fine job.
See, I think those early years were very important for their over all development and for them becoming the players they are today. Those guys were able to learn how to play in the NHL and allow their offensive game to grow in the right environment. Those guys are both top 10 scorers in the NHL currently, so I think they are examples of the importance of early exposure and developing in the NHL. Do you think Pastrnak would have been even better if he waited two more seasons? He is on pace for 60 goals this season, would he be a 75 goal scorer had he not come over as early?
One other point about developing prospects in the NHL is that they reach their second contract earlier. Pasta has one of the best contracts in the NHL because he got through his ELC before his game fully broke out.
Might be alot for one time, true. I am proposing 9 new Kings players, but 3 of them are lottery picks. The rest have either dominated thier peers or will have at least a full season+ of professional Hockey under their belts, or both.
Cal Petersen 2013 RND 5: 6 years of hockey since his draft, 3 AHL seasons
Anderson 2017 RNd 4: 2 college years+1 AHL season
Vilardi 2017 Rnd 1 11th overall: 3 yrs removed from draft, Currently playing in AHL.
Kupari 2018 Rnd 1 20th overall: 2 years removed and 1 in AHL 1 in top Fin pro league.
Turcotte 2019 RND 1 5th overall: high draft pedigree all 3 forwards drafted ahead currently play, and multiple drafted behind him are expected to play next season.
Bjornfot 2019 RND 1 22 Overall: 1 full year of AHL already got a few NHL games under his belt.
Kaliyev 2019 RND 2 33 Overall: 1 yr removed, dominating his peers, Wheeler ranks him 7th beat prospect outside of the NHL and the most dangerous offensive player currently outside of the NHL.
Fagemo 2019 RND 2 50 Overall: 2 full years of SHL experience and dominated his peers in WJ, also was 2018 draft eligible.
Unknown 20/20 RND 1 likely top 5: this depends on who obviously, but multiple options depending on our slot. And players drafted near this slot will undoubtedly be playing in NHL for other teams next season. Not unreasonable to expect ours too.
All of these guys have a legitimate case to be playing in NHL next season. This likely creates our best lineup and imo ramps up their development in a very positive way for their future success. It also allows the Kings to find out what we have and makes The following off-seasons UFA signing period much easier to get right.
9 is a lot. But I can make a strong case for all 9 as individuals. And it's not too hard to find 9 spots on our roster that are ripe for the picking.
I'm concerned if guys like Turcotte can't beat out an Iafallo caliber player a year after his draft, etc...
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