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Raccoon Jesus

Raccoon Jesus

We were right there
Oct 30, 2008
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KINGS17 said:
Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, and Quick were not passengers during the 3-year run. Kopitar and Doughty are not the "superstars" some here want to make them out to be though. They are lacking in leadership and their production from season to season is inconsistent. The Kings won Stanley Cups with a very well balanced lineup.
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That's reductive and makes it sound like just a coincidence that Kopitar led the playoffs in scoring twice with Doughty right behind him while both were shutting down the best in the world.

"superstars" is semantics and I won't even go there, but they did a whole hell of a lot more than some people want to give them credit for.
 
KINGS17

KINGS17

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Raccoon Jesus said:
That's reductive and makes it sound like just a coincidence that Kopitar led the playoffs in scoring twice with Doughty right behind him while both were shutting down the best in the world.

"superstars" is semantics and I won't even go there, but they did a whole hell of a lot more than some people want to give them credit for.
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During the two Stanley Cup runs, Kopitar and Doughty were great. They also had a lot of help. Brown also led the playoffs in scoring in 2012.

I don't think it's reductive. Without Quick the Kings probably don't get past Vancouver in 2012. The 2014 cup run featured balanced goal scoring from Gaborik, Carter, and Williams. In terms of points, yes Kopitar led with 26 points. It was a necessary and important contribution, but let's not pretend he was head and shoulders above the points produced by Carter (25), Williams (25), and Gaborik (22). There were no superstars up front on that team, but a lot of guys doing it together.
 
Raccoon Jesus

Raccoon Jesus

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KINGS17 said:
During the two Stanley Cup runs, Kopitar and Doughty were great. They also had a lot of help. Brown also led the playoffs in scoring in 2012.

I don't think it's reductive. Without Quick the Kings probably don't get past Vancouver in 2012. The 2014 cup run featured balanced goal scoring from Gaborik, Carter, and Williams. In terms of points, yes Kopitar led with 26 points. It was a necessary and important contribution, but let's not pretend he was head and shoulders above the points produced by Carter (25), Williams (25), and Gaborik (22). There were no superstars up front on that team, but a lot of guys doing it together.
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You think Carter gets 25 points if he's also tasked with Thornton, Getzlaf, and Toews/Hossa tag team? Kopitar enabled that.

You think Gaborik gets 14 goals on a line without Kopitar?

You think Williams is able to get free and do his thing without support from above? He was doing damage from various spots in the lineup, and also on the PP...with Kopitar.

Yes, it's reductive. You're pretending Kopitar's only contribution is raw points, which isn't accurate, while also reducing the value of those points, which is reductive.

I realize you're never going to admit Kopitar's value, so it is what is is. But this is another completely different brand of koolaid.
 
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Raccoon Jesus

Raccoon Jesus

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Ziggy Stardust said:
He’d be 7th in scoring. Bokk was a former 1st rounder who they just acquired for Justin Faulk. You are grossly overrating Toffoli’s value.
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Not sure it's by that much, Bokk is a late 1st, it would be like trading Kempe or Pearson. You hope Bokk becomes a 20-20 guy, TT is already that guy. If you're going for it, he's a fit. Can split hairs on either side, but I'm not sure 'grossly' is the right adjective.
 
Ziggy Stardust

Ziggy Stardust

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Raccoon Jesus said:
Not sure it's by that much, Bokk is a late 1st, it would be like trading Kempe or Pearson. You hope Bokk becomes a 20-20 guy, TT is already that guy. If you're going for it, he's a fit. Can split hairs on either side, but I'm not sure 'grossly' is the right adjective.
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We saw players just as productive as Toffoli, some even more so, get moved for less last season. I figure a Kris Versteeg like return is more realistic for a 40 point UFA rental.
 
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kings11

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Sep 29, 2011
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Ziggy Stardust said:
He’d be 7th in scoring. Bokk was a former 1st rounder who they just acquired for Justin Faulk. You are grossly overrating Toffoli’s value.
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You might be under rating what Toffoli is..
that Bokk was a 1st rounder and that they acquired him in the Faulk trade is irrelevant.
Toffoli brings scoring to a team that needs it, he isn’t going to need 2-3 more development years to help a club that needs help right now and he’s likely resign there...
Carolina is fighting for its playoff life and will think big picture unless of course they take the Billy Bean route and settle for just making the playoffs. That team whether you believe it or not has a contention window that’s open and will decide by the TDL if they’ll take the next step.
Bokk and a 2nd for Toffoli isn’t a huge price to pay, especially if he resigns as I mentioned he’d grow with the team being 27YO
 

kings11

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Ziggy Stardust said:
They could offer that for a better player, like Kreider.
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Is he better tho.. and isn’t he asking for $7+? IDK, but Toffoli seems like the perfect player who’d reignite his scoring on a better team.. even then he’s already at 21 pts and is likely to be over 30pts by the TDL.. Again, on a better, playoff bound team his offense would spike and he’d be a cheaper sign
 

kings11

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Raccoon Jesus said:
That's reductive and makes it sound like just a coincidence that Kopitar led the playoffs in scoring twice with Doughty right behind him while both were shutting down the best in the world.

"superstars" is semantics and I won't even go there, but they did a whole hell of a lot more than some people want to give them credit for.
Click to expand...
Kopitar doesn’t get his due even though he’s been every bit as good as Bergeron with better offense..
he’s Kawhi on the Spurs aka overlooked.. put him on the Bruins, Hawks, Pens, Blues or Caps and there be no debating his worth..
need offense, send out Kopi, need a defensive stopper, send out Kopi, need to give someone there dues... who the f*** is Kopi??
 
riznat

riznat

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Nov 19, 2005
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verbalkint47 said:
Didn't he just score 8 points in 5 games like a week ago..?
He doesn't suck, he's just inconsistent. He will never carry a line, but he can provide secondary scoring.
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He's slow, he makes poor decisions, does he have value? Sure but if we were a contender would I want him? Nope.
 
verbalkint47

verbalkint47

Heroes and Villans
Aug 12, 2009
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Idk, we traded a 1st for Penner who overall pretty much sucked. But considering some of the goals he did score for us, I make that trade 100 times out of 100.
I think Toffoli would be a great addition for a team like Boston or Carolina.
 

GoldenBearHockey

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Jan 6, 2014
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I was just coming on to say how much I really like watching Prokhorin play, really solid base of young guys playing now, Prokhorin, Lizotte, Kempe, Wagner, Luff, Amadio has really grown, Walker, Roy, eventually as the team matures, and Turcotte, Kupari, and the kids come up, you will get them in the right position, Wagner is a great 4th line guy, but I don't see him much more than that yet.....Prokhorin has solid second line material written over him......

Frk played well, well enough that you should dump Lewis....not gonna help you or hurt you at this point, Frk is 26, and is a nice filler player, get what you can out of Lewis from a contending team....
 
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Vino

Registered User
Mar 19, 2006
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Finland
verbalkint47 said:
I think Toffoli would be a great addition for a team like Boston or Carolina.
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Toffoli doesn't fit Carolina's playing style at all. They are a really fast team, maybye NHL's fastest team. I can understand if Waddell tries to get player like Kreider, but Toffoli no way.
 
kilowatt

kilowatt

the vibes are not immaculate
Jan 1, 2009
18,684
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verbalkint47 said:
Idk, we traded a 1st for Penner who overall pretty much sucked. But considering some of the goals he did score for us, I make that trade 100 times out of 100.
I think Toffoli would be a great addition for a team like Boston or Carolina.
Click to expand...

Penner’s slap shot from the blue line against the Blues in 2012 won us the cup. That was the goal that made the entire team go “oh shit, we’re winning this thing”.
 
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KINGS17

KINGS17

Smartest in the Room
Apr 6, 2006
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Raccoon Jesus said:
You think Carter gets 25 points if he's also tasked with Thornton, Getzlaf, and Toews/Hossa tag team? Kopitar enabled that.

You think Gaborik gets 14 goals on a line without Kopitar?

You think Williams is able to get free and do his thing without support from above? He was doing damage from various spots in the lineup, and also on the PP...with Kopitar.

Yes, it's reductive. You're pretending Kopitar's only contribution is raw points, which isn't accurate, while also reducing the value of those points, which is reductive.

I realize you're never going to admit Kopitar's value, so it is what is is. But this is another completely different brand of koolaid.
Click to expand...
Do you ever consider the flip side of your questions? I already said Kopitar was great in the 2012 and 2014 playoffs.

Would Kopitar have had 26 points, with 21 of them being assists in 2014 without Gaborik? Do the Kings win the Stanley Cup in 2014 without Carter and Williams?

I said it was a team effort. I think with your brand of koolaid Kopitar is the butterfly flapping its wings, and I think those teams had a number of guys who were as important in the playoffs.
 

GoldenBearHockey

Registered User
Jan 6, 2014
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Havent followed it too closely, but what is with the argument about Kopitar? He's the glue that has held this team together through the rebuild, through the Cup Wins and now...through whatever this/it was afterwards.

Team wouldn't have won without him, but also wouldn't have one with other performances, think about it, LA won both cups without a dynamic, game changing player like a Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, even to a lesser extent, Kane, Toews, Hossa, Crosby, Malkin, Marchand, etc, it can be argued that LA was the first or second team (depends on how you view Boston) that won the cup without a bonafide grade A scorer/star player....
 
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