Prospect Info: 2018 NHL Draft / Pick #9 - Vitali Kravtsov (RW) - Part VI

[Ola]

Idk... Chytil seems to be coming along just fine. That guy Sandin? He seems to be progressing well. I really think it’s a case by case basis. Personally, I’d try to be more conservative, but that’s not always the right approach.

Chytil came to camp as a 17 y/o and blew everyone away. If someone right there and then said that Chytil would be where he is right now I don’t think he exceeds over expectations.

I definitely think it would have been better to let Chytil play another year in the Czech Rep in a bigger role before bringing him over. With that said, I love what I am seeing right now. But I do not think we will be too eager to bring 18 y/o’s to the AHL/NHL in the future, unless we are talking about a Kakko type.

But there are of course exceptions. Some players might be in crappy situations in Europe.

And in any event, this is really not my point. My prime point was:
1. It’s tremendously common that really young Europeans prefer to develop in Europe instead of in the AHL.
2. In light of that, why on earth is it such a big deal that Kravy opted to do the same?
3. When lol did the AHL at a young age become ‘the right path to the AHL’? Really??

You can say the EXACT same thing for every college player not turning pro. Why aren’t we acting like Barron or Miller are spoiled brats for not being willing to pay the price and bailing to play in the AHL in favor of being able to pick up girls at campus? Ask ANY of their agent, and they think they will develop better away from the AHL. The AHL is in no circles seen as a good development league for young kids. And it never has been. But boom all of a sudden it became one in our little universe.

 

[Barnaby]

Chytil came to camp as a 17 y/o and blew everyone away. If someone right there and then said that Chytil would be where he is right now I don’t think he exceeds over expectations.

I definitely think it would have been better to let Chytil play another year in the Czech Rep in a bigger role before bringing him over. With that said, I love what I am seeing right now. But I do not think we will be too eager to bring 18 y/o’s to the AHL/NHL in the future, unless we are talking about a Kakko type.

But there are of course exceptions. Some players might be in crappy situations in Europe.

And in any event, this is really not my point. My prime point was:
1. It’s tremendously common that really young Europeans prefer to develop in Europe instead of in the AHL.
2. In light of that, why on earth is it such a big deal that Kravy opted to do the same?

1. Totally understand that most do... exceptions to every rule though. If a team feels a player will develop quicker/better in the AHL and the player is willing to do it, then why not? Careers are relatively short and if a player thinks it’ll get him to the NHL quicker then it might help him in career earnings.

2. I don’t think it’s a huge deal that Kravstov went back... it gives a poor appearance bc it was at a down point for him, but if he comes in next year and makes the team then his stock will shoot right back up in a hurry around here.

As far as Chytil, I don’t think it would’ve been wrong for him to stay in Europe, but in the end is he further along one way or the other? Who knows... probably not.

 

[Matt Rentfree]

I refuse to judge anyone until they're old enough to legally buy a beer (In the United States).

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

No it isn't. You got signed **** and got personally close to the kid. It really just seems like you're too close to be even remotely fair.

You want to tell me "it was still possible to think there was some fault with the way the NYR handled it"? Fine, I can still be open to that. But you dont suggest it, you assert like it's the only thing that could've possibly happened. You also insult the intelligence of anyone who has reached the conclusion that this is much more on VK despite the fact that it is a VERY fair conclusion to reach at this point

It cant be that this 19 year old was immature and screwed up where none of our other prospects have had an issue? Your words imply that it's foolish to even think this is a possibility. But it isn't

I never said it was not Kravtsov's fault and his behavior is really pathetic but the Rangers have been too eager to bring their prospects over early recently. Lias for instance, should have stayed in Sweden. Kravtsov should have stayed in Russia. This whole situation escalated due to the wrong decisions on both sides. How is that a a bad take?

I think in any event it's wrong to just blame one side. Whether it's sports, relationships or anything else. There's more to it than that.

But hey, if I cannot have an opinion because I am a fan of the player, I will politely f*** off and do something useful with my time.

 

[Barnaby]

I never said it was not Kravtsov's fault and his behavior is really pathetic but the Rangers have been too eager to bring their prospects over early recently. Lias for instance, should have stayed in Sweden. Kravtsov should have stayed in Russia. This whole situation escalated due to the wrong decisions on both sides. How is that a a bad take?

I think in any event it's wrong to just blame one side. Whether it's sports, relationships or anything else. There's more to it than that.

But hey, if I cannot have an opinion because I am a fan of the player, I will politely **** off and do something useful with my time.

Everyones too dramatic. Lias could have stayed, but would he be better today? I don’t know. Would Chytil be closer or further away? Why is it bad that Kravstov came to try and make the roster and failed? Is that terrible for him? How is that worse than a junior kid getting sent back after 9 games?

 

[usekakkorightquinn]

There’s A LOT of facts here that I can’t disagree with.

One thing I’ll add - players respond differently to coaching styles.

It’s our coaches responsibility to tailor their style to try and bring out the best in a prospect. I don’t think that was the case with VK.

I’m not some fanboy who’s neglecting the impossibility stupid, immature and selfish decisions VK made.... But I think our coaching staff should have “”””managed”””” him differently.

Not every player has the same blueprint to success in the NHL. Players learn and adapt differently and you need coaches who understand that and have the capability to see things differently.

Bottom line - I’ve felt VK and our coaching staff Royally ****ed up this season. Good news is there plenty of time for both parties to see the mistakes they made and make some changes in their preparations.

#Hope

Rangers didn't make any mistakes. For the love fo God, stop trying to cover up for this russian pansy. The kid is soft and he's basically sucking in the KHL now. They should move him immediately.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Rangers didn't make any mistakes. For the love fo God, stop trying to cover up for this russian pansy. The kid is soft and he's basically sucking in the KHL now. They should move him immediately

Oh the irony coming from a poster who’s last two usernames were @wenevergetagoodcoach and @usekakkorightquinn.

I do blame VK. I also think our coaches in Hartford could have taken a different approach.

 

[nyr2k2]

Chytil came to camp as a 17 y/o and blew everyone away. If someone right there and then said that Chytil would be where he is right now I don’t think he exceeds over expectations.

I definitely think it would have been better to let Chytil play another year in the Czech Rep in a bigger role before bringing him over. With that said, I love what I am seeing right now. But I do not think we will be too eager to bring 18 y/o’s to the AHL/NHL in the future, unless we are talking about a Kakko type.

But there are of course exceptions. Some players might be in crappy situations in Europe.

And in any event, this is really not my point. My prime point was:
1. It’s tremendously common that really young Europeans prefer to develop in Europe instead of in the AHL.
2. In light of that, why on earth is it such a big deal that Kravy opted to do the same?
3. When lol did the AHL at a young age become ‘the right path to the AHL’? Really??

You can say the EXACT same thing for every college player not turning pro. Why aren’t we acting like Barron or Miller are spoiled brats for not being willing to pay the price and bailing to play in the AHL in favor of being able to pick up girls at campus? Ask ANY of their agent, and they think they will develop better away from the AHL. The AHL is in no circles seen as a good development league for young kids. And it never has been. But boom all of a sudden it became one in our little universe.

To your prime points:

1) I don't think anyone (or anyone reasonable) disagrees here or has a problem with this.
2) It's different with Kravtsov because he committed to coming over and then decided to call it quits the second he faced adversity. This led to questions about him beyond what he brings on the ice.
3) The AHL is not universally considered "the right place" for a young guy to play, and I don't think anyone has said that it is. Kravtsov came here and was assigned to the AHL and needed to work on some deficiencies in his game that really shouldn't have been terribly difficult to correct. Then he leaves for the KHL and the concern is that he might not want to or need to correct those deficiencies because they weren't a problem in the KHL before. So it's not a condemnation of leaving the awesome AHL or anything, it's just frustration because he was in a good spot to work on his game and chose to retreat to a place which might be better overall, but maybe not better for him at this point.

As far as the NCAA thing, I don't really understand the comparison. First and foremost, they don't have agents because that would be considered turning professional by the NCAA. They do of course have a network of advisors, but not formal agents. Second, we talk about NCAA prospects all the time and regularly acknowledge that they're not ready to step into the pro game. It's not about being whiny or spoiled in electing go stay in school. There are very few guys that are high-end prospects that stay in school for more than a year or two anyway, so I'm not sure how this is relevant. The guys that stay for 3-4 years usually develop late and don't look ready for professional hockey until they're older. And again--Kravtsov looked ready. He sounded ready. He wanted to be here and we wanted him. That was great. It was the subsequent decisions and comments that make this all questionable.

Anyway, I don't have a huge circle of NHL or professional players that I know, but I do know some, including a current NHL coach, who generally all speak glowingly about the AHL as a development mechanism for younger players. Which is a big part of why I'm such a fan of the league.

But again, it boils down to evaluating guys on a case-by-case basis, and I feel like you're using a lot of generalities. And some are false.

 

[CasusBelli]

Rangers didn't make any mistakes. For the love fo God, stop trying to cover up for this russian pansy. The kid is soft and he's basically sucking in the KHL now. They should move him immediately.

Bundle him and LA for a bag of pucks?

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I never said it was not Kravtsov's fault and his behavior is really pathetic but the Rangers have been too eager to bring their prospects over early recently. Lias for instance, should have stayed in Sweden. Kravtsov should have stayed in Russia. This whole situation escalated due to the wrong decisions on both sides. How is that a a bad take?

I think in any event it's wrong to just blame one side. Whether it's sports, relationships or anything else. There's more to it than that.

But hey, if I cannot have an opinion because I am a fan of the player, I will politely **** off and do something useful with my time.

I didn't say you said that. I'm saying that you were dismissing the notion (and implying it's simply not even possible) that Kravtsov deserves the vast majority (or perhaps even all) the blame. I am not dismissing the possibility that the NYr did things wrong/deserve more blame but the more we see the more this seems to be a big VK issue. So it's just wrong to me that you called people foolish for not assigning more blame to the NYR and like I keep showing I disagree with other aspects of what you're saying. For instance:

I showed how the notion of "rushing" has no definitive proof. So far everyone seems to have been brought along at the correct time. The only one who seems to have been clearly not ready for a transition to NA was given an easy out (VK). Not being ready for the NHL is not automatically rushing a player. It's more about if the player is ready for a transition to the NA pro game. Lias has fit right in at the A. All signs indicate he was ready.

Your last sentence is a fair bit hypocritical.

You can have your opinion...but when your opinion features you calling people foolish for not agreeing with you then expect to get a few critics. You are also stating things as if they are fact when they aren't even likely true based on the evidence. (which i have shown few times.)

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Oh my, how many of you were singing a different tune last year. Now that there is a speed bump we need to trade Kravtsov and our GM and scouts are idiots.

Unless you can point out something specific I said please don’t lump me into a group.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Rangers didn't make any mistakes. For the love fo God, stop trying to cover up for this russian pansy. The kid is soft and he's basically sucking in the KHL now. They should move him immediately.

Annnnd then you get the opposite end of the bs spectrum. 'UsuallyIdon'tevencomment' on these but I don't want to give the appearance that I'm ignoring the anti VK bad arguments. It's hard to comment when they're THIS bad though. Plus I'm in a 1 month self imposed "be nicer/more patient" thing and all I can think to say are very, very harsh things in response to this

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

There’s A LOT of facts here that I can’t disagree with.

One thing I’ll add - players respond differently to coaching styles.

It’s our coaches responsibility to tailor their style to try and bring out the best in a prospect. I don’t think that was the case with VK.

I’m not some fanboy who’s neglecting the impossibility stupid, immature and selfish decisions VK made.... But I think our coaching staff should have “”””managed”””” him differently.

Not every player has the same blueprint to success in the NHL. Players learn and adapt differently and you need coaches who understand that and have the capability to see things differently.

Bottom line - I’ve felt VK and our coaching staff Royally ****ed up this season. Good news is there plenty of time for both parties to see the mistakes they made and make some changes in their preparations.

#Hope

I agree. I'm not sure about what the coaches should or shouldn't have done. Even the rumored heart rate thing makes me wonder. "MY heart rate is just always low". That's not how hearts work which is why you can't do a full sprint for 3 minutes straight. The heart HAS to increase a lot and your body has to slow down. It's possible he was busting his ass and his heart rate didn't go as high as most people bc he's just in such exemplary condition. It's also possible he wasn't busting his ass, was sucking ass as result and deserved the demotions he was getting as a result.

Then I heard he had an attitude with teammates who joked with him somehwere on here. Then we see the instagram breakup shit and comments throwing shade at the organization. Long story short I really, really wonder about if any coaching style would have been right other than handing him a top 6 spot and letting him do whatever he wanted.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Unless you can point out something specific I said please don’t lump me into a group.

Chicago has plenty of options in order to get better faster. They could trade down and still be in the top 10. Trading down 17 spots is not reasonable or realistic without giving up a PRIME asset. Want to give them Kravtsov? How about Zibanejad? That’s the level of player or prospect it would take for a team to trade the pick that the hockey gods absolutely gifted to them after that were 12th.

As recently as May you called him a prime asset. Those generally aren't the type you just dangle out there.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

As recently as May you called him a prime asset. Those generally aren't the type you just dangle out there.

I stand corrected.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I stand corrected.

I appreciate your willingness to admit that as most wouldn't.

 

[Ola]

To your prime points:

1) I don't think anyone (or anyone reasonable) disagrees here or has a problem with this.
2) It's different with Kravtsov because he committed to coming over and then decided to call it quits the second he faced adversity. This led to questions about him beyond what he brings on the ice.
3) The AHL is not universally considered "the right place" for a young guy to play, and I don't think anyone has said that it is. Kravtsov came here and was assigned to the AHL and needed to work on some deficiencies in his game that really shouldn't have been terribly difficult to correct. Then he leaves for the KHL and the concern is that he might not want to or need to correct those deficiencies because they weren't a problem in the KHL before. So it's not a condemnation of leaving the awesome AHL or anything, it's just frustration because he was in a good spot to work on his game and chose to retreat to a place which might be better overall, but maybe not better for him at this point.

As far as the NCAA thing, I don't really understand the comparison. First and foremost, they don't have agents because that would be considered turning professional by the NCAA. They do of course have a network of advisors, but not formal agents. Second, we talk about NCAA prospects all the time and regularly acknowledge that they're not ready to step into the pro game. It's not about being whiny or spoiled in electing go stay in school. There are very few guys that are high-end prospects that stay in school for more than a year or two anyway, so I'm not sure how this is relevant. The guys that stay for 3-4 years usually develop late and don't look ready for professional hockey until they're older. And again--Kravtsov looked ready. He sounded ready. He wanted to be here and we wanted him. That was great. It was the subsequent decisions and comments that make this all questionable.

Anyway, I don't have a huge circle of NHL or professional players that I know, but I do know some, including a current NHL coach, who generally all speak glowingly about the AHL as a development mechanism for younger players. Which is a big part of why I'm such a fan of the league.

But again, it boils down to evaluating guys on a case-by-case basis, and I feel like you're using a lot of generalities. And some are false.

I have a few objections.

*Why are we saying that Kravy was committed to come over and returned the second he faced adversity? It’s a fact that he negotiated and got a clause that enabled him to do just that. Doesn’t that make it seem overwhelmingly likely that this was planned all along?

I could be missing something, but I have not seen anything that indicates anything else. Let me know if I do.

*I don’t understand why the NCAA comparison doesn’t make sense.

I would say that guys like Skjei, McD, Kreider, K Miller and Barron all are examples of players who were/are good enough for the AHL but opted to return to college.

My understanding is that many of these kids do not see being able to play in the AHL as the breaking point for when to turn pro, they normally do that when they are ready for the NHL or the full term have passed.

My opinion is definitely that college hockey is a lot better place for a kid to develop in than in the AHL — even if the kid could win a spot in the AHL.

*I can’t understand how the AHL can be a good development league for a kid that is still developing his raw abilities like skating, stick-handling etc.

Most weeks you play 3 games. A lot of bus rides. A day off traditionally on Mondays. It’s physically a tough league, you will have to nurture a lot of bumps and bruises.

The math just don’t add up to me. There are no short cuts, you need to practice, practice and then practice some more to become better. 3 days for practice, some weeks 4. It don’t add up. You don’t run a morning session with any meaningful drilling like a junior team can do, with an AHL game in the afternoon, even if it’s on home ice. That would be dangerous, you need to be 100%.

But after you have reached a state where you have grown into your body, built the platform in terms of speed and stick handling and what not — then the AHL of course is the perfect crash course to adjust to the pro game.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Honestly, if you ask any expert in Europe, who see all European prospects closely and how they develop when they stay a few years or when they go over early, I think you will struggle to find ONE who wouldn’t say that 3-4 years after the draft is optimal for a kid. If you poll 100 experts, I think 100 would say no earlier then 21-22 is optimal.

The AHL is in no shape or form a ‘development’ league. You play way to many games and travel way to much to have time for that. It’s a league that is great at turning finished products into NHLers.

Again though, show me where the Rangers forced him to come over. If he's not ready, he's not ready. I don't blame him or the Rangers for that. But going back to a god awful team in Russia seems short sighted and as of now, it doesn't appear to be working out for the kid.

 

[RGY]

I’ve felt all along that Kravtsov would have been best served staying Hartford, spending time around that coaching staff, making the adjustment, staying around the organization. At least for his career development. It may not have been best for his personal life off the ice, but right now it has been a disaster going back to Traktor, which the team itself is a trainwreck and we all knew that was going to be the case this year as it was last year.

But I am trying to stay optimistic with him. The false hope would be that he went back and took a step forward in production so much so that it made the Rangers want to recall him at the end of the KHL season. But now he wouldn’t be getting a recall and what is needed which is to go to Hartford, can’t be done.

 

[nyr2k2]

I have a few objections.

*Why are we saying that Kravy was committed to come over and returned the second he faced adversity? It’s a fact that he negotiated and got a clause that enabled him to do just that. Doesn’t that make it seem overwhelmingly likely that this was planned all along?

I could be missing something, but I have not seen anything that indicates anything else. Let me know if I do.

Shesterkin negotiated a clause. Rykov has one for next year. Reunanen used his. Berezgalov had one. And on and on. Most guys seem to get them. Most guys don't use them, and certainly not after five games. Sure, it's possible that this was planned, but I don't see any evidence of that. I see a kid who came over talking of how excited he was to play here, how excited he was to be in the NHL, who then goes to Hartford, struggles, gets benched, then leaves as soon as possible. And on the way out, talks about all the things that made him uncomfortable, like not liking the way his teammates joked, not being able get a haircut, not understanding the staff (the heart rate thing), and so forth. It seems pretty damn clear that this was not "the plan" from the get go.

*I don’t understand why the NCAA comparison doesn’t make sense.

I would say that guys like Skjei, McD, Kreider, K Miller and Barron all are examples of players who were/are good enough for the AHL but opted to return to college.

My understanding is that many of these kids do not see being able to play in the AHL as the breaking point for when to turn pro, they normally do that when they are ready for the NHL or the full term have passed.

My opinion is definitely that college hockey is a lot better place for a kid to develop in than in the AHL — even if the kid could win a spot in the AHL.

The difference in quality between the NCAA and AHL is huge! Like, K'Andre Miller, he had a fantastic Freshman campaign, but where his game is at, he'd get eaten alive in the AHL. The AHL is littered with mediocre professional players who were excellent NCAA players. So, I don't really understand how you're assessing them as "good enough for the AHL". Like, Montreal wanted McDonagh to do another year as they weren't thrilled with his offensive development. Skjei was "ready" to come out and play a full year in the AHL. Kreider came out and made an immediate impact in the playoffs but then the following year showed he, too, was not ready for the NHL, but needed AHL time.

The barometer for most of these guys is that they turn pro when it is believed that they are ready to turn pro; whether in the AHL or the NHL, as it is clearly understood by these guys that even if they think they're NHL ready, there's a great chance they need time in the AHL to actually be ready.

I firmly believe that if a kid is truly ready to take the next step, you let him do it. So the idea of college being better for a kid even if he could win a spot in the AHL, that seems crazy. I'm not arguing you push guys, but when they show they're ready, you let them take the leap.

*I can’t understand how the AHL can be a good development league for a kid that is still developing his raw abilities like skating, stick-handling etc.

Most weeks you play 3 games. A lot of bus rides. A day off traditionally on Mondays. It’s physically a tough league, you will have to nurture a lot of bumps and bruises.

The math just don’t add up to me. There are no short cuts, you need to practice, practice and then practice some more to become better. 3 days for practice, some weeks 4. It don’t add up. You don’t run a morning session with any meaningful drilling like a junior team can do, with an AHL game in the afternoon, even if it’s on home ice. That would be dangerous, you need to be 100%.

But after you have reached a state where you have grown into your body, built the platform in terms of speed and stick handling and what not — then the AHL of course is the perfect crash course to adjust to the pro game.

Again, though, as I said in another thread--in the CHL leagues they play 68 games, ride buses all over Canada and the US, all while also having to take classes. The USHL plays 62. They also generally play 3 games per week. It's not much different than what happens in the AHL. Are you going to argue that the CHL is not a good place for young players to develop their technical skills? We all know it is, it's the best junior league in the world by a country mile. So why can the skills be developed in the CHL but not the AHL?

 

[Hanji]

Shesterkin negotiated a clause. Rykov has one for next year. Reunanen used his. Berezgalov had one. And on and on. Most guys seem to get them. Most guys don't use them, and certainly not after five games.

It's quite common, actually. Recent 1st rounders Brannstrom, Veselainen, Heiskanen, Andersson, Necas, Lundestrom, Broberg, Soderstrom, ec. have done it. Many of these guys didn't bother giving the AHL a chance.

Heinola is another one. Lasted 3 games in the AHL. Recently went home for the year. Winnipeg fans aren't severing his head like we are Kravtsov.

IMO the worrisome fact isn't that Kravtsov went back to the KHL, it's his attitude that accompanied it. Unfortunately it seems to be continuing in Russia.

 

[NYR Viper]

We all seem to be reading in between some very thin lines and jumping to conclusions.

If only we had a mat so we could jump to conclusions together...

 

[CasusBelli]

We all seem to be reading in between some very thin lines and jumping to conclusions.

If only we had a mat so we could jump to conclusions together...

That is the worst idea I’ve ever heard.

 

[romba]

IMO Kravtsov is the epitome of the modern child. They have never faced adversity ( that's not a knock on him, just the reality ) and do not know how to deal with it.

We, as a society, for some reason, protect our young from failure... Ironically, causing them to fail down the road and hindering that development to a later date... ie Arrested Development. This isn't a knock on one person or a particular group of people. It's a 1st world epidemic IMO. The 'everyone is a winner' and 'you cant hurt my feelings even though its true' culture. Everything is easy and constant.

I hope he matures quicker than I did.....

I agree with you regarding kids who come from more privileged backgrounds as VK does. It is easy to shield the kids from life's hardships, but at a certain point you have to learn to walk before you can run, and getting thrown to the sharks at 19 when you haven't mastered swimming in adversity yet is terrifying and would send me packing as well. It's tough as parents to watch our kids struggle through difficulties, but it really builds character, integrity, teaches accountability and offers perspective, much of which is missing from today's youth (my generation included).

 

[nyr2k2]

It's quite common, actually. Recent 1st rounders Brannstrom, Veselainen, Heiskanen, Andersson, Necas, Lundestrom, Broberg, Soderstrom, ec. have done it. Many of these guys didn't bother giving the AHL a chance.

Heinola is another one. Lasted 3 games in the AHL. Recently went home for the year. Winnipeg fans aren't severing his head like we are Kravtsov.

IMO the worrisome fact isn't that Kravtsov went back to the KHL, it's his attitude that accompanied it. Unfortunately it seems to be continuing in Russia.

This is fair. I would still guess that if you looked at the total number of players that come with an EAC and then those that actually exercise it, it's still going to be less than 50%. Although I admit, in my head I think of guys that didn't use it, and I think of someone like Buchnevich--but then I remember he was in the NHL immediately and never had any reason/opportunity to use it. So, maybe I'm wrong.

I just look at someone like Shesterkin--he doesn't appear poised to use his, and he was more accomplished and probably making more money than Kravtsov. I don't understand why Kravtsov didn't stick it out, especially if he was just going to go pout and half-ass it back home. If he went home with a fire lit under his ass and really worked on his game, I'd be okay with everything. Unfortunately it isn't happening.