Prospect Info: 2018 NHL Draft / Pick #9 - Vitali Kravtsov (RW) - Part VI

[ohbaby]

Anyone know how he is doing back in Russia?

A lot of the blame game that is going on is ignoring the facts of what happened with him. He was not sent down because he wasn't good enough. No, he was sent down to get top minutes he wouldn't be able to get with the big club. That's something many of you are missing on. Two,... Not only does he not get top minutes down there (4th line) but gets scratched after only one game. That is excessive IMO. Were the new coaches using him as an example? Was there too much emphasis on heart rate monitoring? I knew the minute they scratched him he would bolt. He played a couple of games on the 4th line after that and then left. And I don't blame him. More money, better conditions, it's a no brainer.

If the Rangers wanted a top prospect to stay, they could have given him an opportunity. One game is hardly an opportunity.

 

[nyr2k2]

I wanted him to stay in Russia for at least another year. The Tarasenko/Kuznetsov path was always the one I preferred. I didn't see any reason to sign him so soon. It's not as if he was done developing in the KHL. I know the situation with contracts and that they wouldn't be able to sign him until he's a KHL free agent again but it's not like we are a small market team struggling to convince players to come over

Yeah but again, you also had him scoring anywhere from 20+ to 40+ points and were putting him on the PP. Even if you thought ideally he should stay in Russia for another year, don't you kind of contradict your "he was rushed" argument when you throw those point projections out there? Like, if you're 19 and you can score 30-something points and feature on a PP, you probably do belong in the NHL. You were always consistent about how he should stay for another year at least, but I don't ever remember you saying we were rushing things--to the contrary, Kravtsov was ready to be a legit contributor, according to your very words.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Just a nightmare season for VK so far. Couldn’t have drawn it up much worse.

 

[Sayba]

Anyone know how he is doing back in Russia?

A lot of the blame game that is going on is ignoring the facts of what happened with him. He was not sent down because he wasn't good enough. No, he was sent down to get top minutes he wouldn't be able to get with the big club. That's something many of you are missing on. Two,... Not only does he not get top minutes down there (4th line) but gets scratched after only one game. That is excessive IMO. Were the new coaches using him as an example? Was there too much emphasis on heart rate monitoring? I knew the minute they scratched him he would bolt. He played a couple of games on the 4th line after that and then left. And I don't blame him. More money, better conditions, it's a no brainer.

If the Rangers wanted a top prospect to stay, they could have given him an opportunity. One game is hardly an opportunity.

Not sure what you were watching, he wasn't good enough.

Now he is getting benched in the AHL and KHL, that doesn't scream a player that is good enough.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Guess we need to go back to the draft thread

No use of "Kraptsov" in the draft thread, but in Kravtsov Part 2, we get:

Prospect Info: - 2018 NHL Draft / Pick #9 - Vitali Kravtsov (RW) - Part II

 

[FoxyClean]

I was about to buy this guy's jersey in the preseason. Who knows if he'll ever even play an NHL game at this point.

 

[nyr2k2]

No use of "Kraptsov" in the draft thread, but in Kravtsov Part 2, we get:

Prospect Info: - 2018 NHL Draft / Pick #9 - Vitali Kravtsov (RW) - Part II

Has anyone called "Krapsoft" yet?

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

No use of "Kraptsov" in the draft thread, but in Kravtsov Part 2, we get:

Prospect Info: - 2018 NHL Draft / Pick #9 - Vitali Kravtsov (RW) - Part II

I hereby declare a cease and desist order on your trademark
GDT: - Draft Day Bonanza - All rumors/speculation/draft talk here ( Poll Added!)

 

[Harbour Dog]

Has anyone called "Krapsoft" yet?

Hahaha, I did in that post, yup. Changed my mind to Krapsoft after I realized it was better.

 

[Harbour Dog]

I hereby declare a cease and desist order on your trademark
GDT: - Draft Day Bonanza - All rumors/speculation/draft talk here ( Poll Added!)

Son of a bitch.

 

[kovazub94]

Way off topic but I'm the first person in my family to have even a high school education, my dad was a drug dealer who was in prison for attempted murder; he then died when I was only 1 year old. My mom was diagnosed with one of the most aggressive forms of breast cancer when I was 9 years old and was almost certain I would've lost both my parents by that tender age (she beat cancer however). One of my best friends I knew since we were in kindergarten was murdered when we were 15.
Teenager Laura Szendrei dies after vicious attack in North Delta
If you want proof we were very close friends I can send pictures of us together since we were little kids in PM's. The city we live in (outskirts of Delta, essentially Surrey) was classified as the "Car Theft Capital of North America" and is one of the most screwed up places on the continent. I've been jumped by mobs of 40+ people with bear mace & batons, as have all of my friends. I've been held at gunpoint. About 20 kids I went to high school with are already dead and I am still very young. There's a criminal record search website and when I search the majority of my friends and people I know from high school they all have criminal records for violence, gun or drug offenses. So yea I think that's a tad more adversity than some kid of Russian oligarchs who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth who's throwing a temper tantrum that he didn't make the NHL on his first attempt.

I also play ice hockey & ball hockey, ball hockey is very big in BC and I played at the provincial level where many of my teammates and competition were guys who played for team Canada and were drafted to the WHL and I led many of them in scoring. Obviously not anywhere near the level of Kravtsov, but hockey is not what my career aspiration is. If I were that close to achieving my wildest dreams I wouldn't pack it up and go home, nor do I think the majority of people would. I'm a big Kravtsov fan, I've been watching many of his KHL games back to last season and I'm disappointed with what has transpired so far.

Well, fist all due respect to you for overcoming the environment your were raised in, but you're not going to get "ohhh" from me if with this background you're still acting as a kid and not being self-aware that your story is more of an exception than the rule and thinking you have a high ground to dismiss someone else's adversity. If anything I'd say shame on you for not being more humble.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Well, fist all due respect to you for overcoming the environment your were raised in, but you're not going to get "ohhh" from me if with this background you're still acting as a kid and not being self-aware that your story is more of an exception than the rule and thinking you have a high ground to dismiss someone else's adversity. If anything I'd say shame on you for not being more humble.

I’m just saying that most people, likely even Vitali himself have battled far harsher adversity than moving to a new country for their dream job. He’s not a victim here. Did you see the interview he did where he basically bashed his entire experience here? Look through old Kravtsov threads I’ve been one of his most ardent supporters even prior to the draft, you’ll actually find I proposed trading Kevin Hayes to move up and pick him if he were available in the teens. I’m very disappointed in how he’s handled this situation

 

[kovazub94]

I’m just saying that most people, likely even Vitali himself have battled far harsher adversity than moving to a new country for their dream job. He’s not a victim here. Did you see the interview he did where he basically bashed his entire experience here? Look through old Kravtsov threads I’ve been one of his most ardent supporters even prior to the draft, you’ll actually find I proposed trading Kevin Hayes to move up and pick him if he were available in the teens. I’m very disappointed in how he’s handled this situation

I'm very disappointed too because but even so at my age I'm very careful with words to put a judgement on someone all of 19 years of age.

 

[EdJovanovski]

I'm very disappointed too because but even so at my age I'm very careful with words to put a judgement on someone all of 19 years of age.

I don’t know if you’re older or something but these young players are in my age group so I don’t really view them as “kids”. Perhaps looking back in a couple decades I’ll think little did I know

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Well, it would be foolish to think the fault lies with just one party

No it isn't. You got signed shit and got personally close to the kid. It really just seems like you're too close to be even remotely fair.

You want to tell me "it was still possible to think there was some fault with the way the NYR handled it"? Fine, I can still be open to that. But you dont suggest it, you assert like it's the only thing that could've possibly happened. You also insult the intelligence of anyone who has reached the conclusion that this is much more on VK despite the fact that it is a VERY fair conclusion to reach at this point

It cant be that this 19 year old was immature and screwed up where none of our other prospects have had an issue? Your words imply that it's foolish to even think this is a possibility. But it isn't

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Sure, but let's not pretend the Rangers organization isn't to blame here. They rushed him. They have 0 patience with prospects lately

Let's not pretend the Rangers definitely deserve blame here. Nothing proves that they rushed him (including the fact he's currently in Russia). They literally gave him a clause that guarantees they could try him out and let him go back if it was too soon. They have given boatloads of patience to Howden to the degree that this board wants to string up Quinn by his fingers. ADA was constantly given a momentary seat and always was allowed to try again. Chytil was given time to breathe in the A before being borught back up. What you are saying is an outright lie that goes so completely against the reality of the situation.

That doesn't make it the right decision

But it doesnt make it wrong either. When you look at the out clause they gave him it makes it even more likely that it was the right decision since it gave him the easy out in case he wasn't ready. Looking at how VK has performed in totality the bast majority of evidence points the blame squarely at him.

Im not advocating anything seriously idiotic like trading him away or giving up on him. I'm advocating that you re-evaluate how and why you're coming to the conclusions that you are. You're TOO ardent in your posts about trying to alleviate blame from VK and the arguments you're using are full of significant holes.

I agree with Kreiderman. Management have also had way to little patience with these kids. Both Lias and Chytil were rushed over D+1. That is very unusual.
.

See above. Also bringing a prospect in D+! isn't rushing them by default. Chytil was not rushed in anyway. He was ready. You could argue Andersson was rushed but his game hasn't been hindered, he just wasn't ready for the NHL so we pissed away ELC years. He seems to have been ready for exposure to the NA game even if he wasn't ready for full time NHL duties.

That's also not a sign of having no patience. No patience would have gotten ADA, Chytil, Lias and Vk traded away by now. No patience would have ADA, Chytil and Lias all in the A with roughly 1 dozen total NHL games to their names. No patience would be refusing to give VK the out clause.

Anyone know how he is doing back in Russia?

A lot of the blame game that is going on is ignoring the facts of what happened with him. He was not sent down because he wasn't good enough. No, he was sent down to get top minutes he wouldn't be able to get with the big club. That's something many of you are missing on. Two,... Not only does he not get top minutes down there (4th line) but gets scratched after only one game. That is excessive IMO. Were the new coaches using him as an example? Was there too much emphasis on heart rate monitoring? I knew the minute they scratched him he would bolt. He played a couple of games on the 4th line after that and then left. And I don't blame him. More money, better conditions, it's a no brainer.

If the Rangers wanted a top prospect to stay, they could have given him an opportunity. One game is hardly an opportunity.

And you're using a few facts to justify ignoring the entire potential picture while injecting some opinion that doesn't gel with reality (Like that he "wasn't sent down bc he wasn't good enough"...yes that is exactly why he was sent down. It appears to be exactly why his ass was on the 4th line in the A and it appears to be something that has carried over to Russia with him to start this season.)

Again I reiterate that I'm not even on the hatewagon at all but these arguments for VK are just based on outright false claims or they're ignoring large bits of reality. They're bad arguments

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Oh my, how many of you were singing a different tune last year. Now that there is a speed bump we need to trade Kravtsov and our GM and scouts are idiots.

The ironic thing is they're giving up at the first sign of adversity while complaining so heavily about how crappy Kravty is for doing the same thing potentially. Bad arguments on the pro and anti sides of the VK debate.

"Giving up at the first sign of adversity is bad". That's pretty fair. The definitive takes giving up on him though?

 

[Uncle Dru]

I'd be much happier with Krav's decision to go back to Siberia if he took Ruff with him

 

[Inferno]

Matt Boldy is 1+1 for 2 pts in 13 games in COLLEGE. Imagine if we drafted him...

Kravy have been forced to eat liquid foot for a while after having his mouth messed up and is struggling some after an eventful stretch. The KHL is a good league. Give him a little break.

I agree with Kreiderman. Management have also had way to little patience with these kids. Both Lias and Chytil were rushed over D+1. That is very unusual.

Looking at other teams, it’s impossible to not learn that in the big picture — developing kids are 5-6 year process. Sure there are exceptions. But in other cases kids have great D+2-3 seasons and then take a step back a few years. Look at Skinner for example. Laine.

No amount of money is worth having to eat liquid foot.

 

[pblawr]

First things first, we shouldn't be name calling 19 year old kids. I'm sure no one wants Kravtsov to succeed more than he does or is more his frustrated with his struggles than he is.

Secondly, before the season every indication was that he had good work ethic and plenty of character. His response to not making the Rangers isn't what you want, but he's a 19 year old kid who had his heart set on accomplishing a major goal and fell short. It's not that unusual and I think it's premature to start changing opinions about him. It might be worth contrasting how this board perceives adults' career frustrations in the "Career Advice" thread with how it perceives Kravtsov's frustrations.

Thirdly, it's been...15 games. And the context of those 15 games is his first 5 regular season games in North America and 10 games on a god awful KHL team after missing training camp and the first 20+ games of their season. It's not exactly a great sample and it's understandable if it takes him some time get in a rhythm.

Finally, just some reminders:







Adam Herman on Twitter

 

[kovazub94]

I don’t know if you’re older or something but these young players are in my age group so I don’t really view them as “kids”. Perhaps looking back in a couple decades I’ll think little did I know

I’m in my mid-40s growing up in former Soviet Union during 80’s and moving to US at a tender age of 18, but people keep telling me these days that I’m very wise, lol.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Let's not pretend the Rangers definitely deserve blame here. Nothing proves that they rushed him (including the fact he's currently in Russia). They literally gave him a clause that guarantees they could try him out and let him go back if it was too soon. They have given boatloads of patience to Howden to the degree that this board wants to string up Quinn by his fingers. ADA was constantly given a momentary seat and always was allowed to try again. Chytil was given time to breathe in the A before being borught back up. What you are saying is an outright lie that goes so completely against the reality of the situation.



But it doesnt make it wrong either. When you look at the out clause they gave him it makes it even more likely that it was the right decision since it gave him the easy out in case he wasn't ready. Looking at how VK has performed in totality the bast majority of evidence points the blame squarely at him.

Im not advocating anything seriously idiotic like trading him away or giving up on him. I'm advocating that you re-evaluate how and why you're coming to the conclusions that you are. You're TOO ardent in your posts about trying to alleviate blame from VK and the arguments you're using are full of significant holes.




See above. Also bringing a prospect in D+! isn't rushing them by default. Chytil was not rushed in anyway. He was ready. You could argue Andersson was rushed but his game hasn't been hindered, he just wasn't ready for the NHL so we pissed away ELC years. He seems to have been ready for exposure to the NA game even if he wasn't ready for full time NHL duties.

That's also not a sign of having no patience. No patience would have gotten ADA, Chytil, Lias and Vk traded away by now. No patience would have ADA, Chytil and Lias all in the A with roughly 1 dozen total NHL games to their names. No patience would be refusing to give VK the out clause.




And you're using a few facts to justify ignoring the entire potential picture while injecting some opinion that doesn't gel with reality (Like that he "wasn't sent down bc he wasn't good enough"...yes that is exactly why he was sent down. It appears to be exactly why his ass was on the 4th line in the A and it appears to be something that has carried over to Russia with him to start this season.)

Again I reiterate that I'm not even on the hatewagon at all but these arguments for VK are just based on outright false claims or they're ignoring large bits of reality. They're bad arguments

There’s A LOT of facts here that I can’t disagree with.

One thing I’ll add - players respond differently to coaching styles.

It’s our coaches responsibility to tailor their style to try and bring out the best in a prospect. I don’t think that was the case with VK.

I’m not some fanboy who’s neglecting the impossibility stupid, immature and selfish decisions VK made.... But I think our coaching staff should have “”””managed”””” him differently.

Not every player has the same blueprint to success in the NHL. Players learn and adapt differently and you need coaches who understand that and have the capability to see things differently.

Bottom line - I’ve felt VK and our coaching staff Royally ****ed up this season. Good news is there plenty of time for both parties to see the mistakes they made and make some changes in their preparations.

#Hope

 

[apoptygma]

I might be wrong, but I believe that players use different agents for NA and Europe (due to licences etc.).
This would not be the first time a young player get sweet talked or pressured by an agent to do something
they should not really do their careers if there is a boon for the agent in it.

Overall it feels like many pro atlethes chase that extra little cash and put themselves in a less than ideal spot.

 

[Barnaby]

Sure, but let's not pretend the Rangers organization isn't to blame here. They rushed him. They have 0 patience with prospects lately

He came over to prospect camp... played in preseason and wasn’t quite ready. He didn’t earn time in Hartford day 1 but I’m sure he would’ve been in the top 6 in short order. I fail to see what the Rangers did wrong. He probably expected to be in the NHL and got frustrated. It doesn’t make he or the organization awful. Rushing him would be forcing him into a lineup spot where he was getting beat up. Aren’t you the guy who constantly talks about the quality of the KHL? AHL shouldn’t be a stretch, but if he’s not ready, no worries. The kid is a teenager - it doesn’t mean anyone has screwed up. I fully expect to see him in blue within two years.

 

[Barnaby]

Honestly, if you ask any expert in Europe, who see all European prospects closely and how they develop when they stay a few years or when they go over early, I think you will struggle to find ONE who wouldn’t say that 3-4 years after the draft is optimal for a kid. If you poll 100 experts, I think 100 would say no earlier then 21-22 is optimal.

The AHL is in no shape or form a ‘development’ league. You play way to many games and travel way to much to have time for that. It’s a league that is great at turning finished products into NHLers.

Idk... Chytil seems to be coming along just fine. That guy Sandin? He seems to be progressing well. I really think it’s a case by case basis. Personally, I’d try to be more conservative, but that’s not always the right approach.