Prospect Info: 2018 NHL Draft / Pick #9 - Vitali Kravtsov (RW) - Part V

[True Blue]

Precisely. Which is exactly why I prefer to tag up some actual printed articles in case I ever needed them, instead of just expressing wild huntches.

The people that come here do not come with wild hunches. At least not the respected, vetted ones. I tend to believe their information

 

[True Blue]

Some did suddenly, and unsurprisingly begin to favor Kakko over Hughes when we got the #2 pick and Devils #1. And sure, there have been a number of cringe worthy posts either praising Kakko or mocking Hughes but those posts have been constantly criticized by the majority of active posters. Quite frankly those of us who thought Hughes the better prospect didn't have to explain our opinion, yet those that preferred Kakko often had to. To me that doesn't sound like an pro-Kakko echo chamber, but maybe your definition differs.

Mine goes to the point that I believe (just mine) that after landing Kakko, there proceeded to be reasoning created why Kakko is the better prospect and frankly has been all along. And that is the more lucid ones. There were some assinine, such as "Glad we picked Kakko because Hughes gives out robotic responses".

 

[True Blue]

Colorado specifically broke that top line up multiple times throughout the year bc after the ridiculous start with the one line dominating the offense became stagnant bc they were top heavy. They put the top line back together during the season in spurts when they needed an offensive jolt.

Colorado is not a very good example as they spent the great majority of the time played together.
As to the rest, most teams play their top players on their top lines. There is not nothing new to this.

 

[True Blue]

Panarin's production will not really drop off at all based on his center. He's played with younger, older, more defensive, more offensive types and he consistently hits his totals, year after year.

Just to understand, Panarin's production will be basically the same if he plays with Zbad as center as opposed to Chytil or Howden?

If we go out there and stack one line, as good as it may be, we'll be more like the Oilers than anything else. A one line team that if you shut them down, you're pretty much going to win.

This is still a developmental year. A year in which they hopefully take another step forward. Why the concern about line stacking? I doubt that management is viewing this in Edmoton like comparisons as to the reason that they signed a player for $11.6 just to either: 1) have him play on the second line 2) have his signing be a reason to push their only legit.near elite top line center down to the second line.

Believe it or not, this team isn't going to intentionally tank, and splitting Panarin and Zibanejad so the team has two scoring lines would be the way to go IMO. They can be stacked together late in games and when we really need a goal, but having all the power on one line and leaving 2-4 with all our young players and/or bottom 6ers spread out will not end up well for the team and their development.

Who said ANYTHING about a tank, deliberate or otherwise?

Case in point, look at how Buchnevich picked it up playing with Kreider and Zibanejad. Now that he is coming into his own, there is a much better chance now that he can go out there and help be a bigger part of his own line. This season, that has the chance to be the 3rd line, especially with the talent coming in on RW.

What is "his own line"? Are we now presuming that he is not a complimentary player and now can be a spearhead driving his own line? If not, then why does he get a line that is "his own'?

Kakko and Kravtsov's skill level could make them great complimentary players for Zibanejad and Panarin. Over time, they get adjusted to the league and they don't have to be on those lines. They could drive play themselves.

What they could do over time is one thing. What is the realistic expectation of them as under 2o rookies is entirely different. And if the goal is that they "COULD" become such complimentary players, then why are they being developed playing with such players on their line? First we discuss how not to thrust the rookies into roles that they are not ready for. Then we move on to how playing them in such roles will help them develop into complimentary players. Which is it? Are they to be given time to develop or thrust onto the top line immediately? Because, you know, that is what Edmonton did , speaking of them. And a reason as to why they are still rebuilding 10 years later.

 

[JimmyG89]

Just to understand, Panarin's production will be basically the same if he plays with Zbad as center as opposed to Chytil or Howden?

Did his production drop from when he left Patrick Kane's side? That was supposed to be his downfall. He went to Columbus and showed he was someone that could drive a line and play. His production isn't a concern, so long as he gets his ice time and PP time. We're also not saying he's going to play with Fast and Namestnikov like Zibanejad did this season. He'll be with young, skilled players.

This is still a developmental year. A year in which they hopefully take another step forward. Why the concern about line stacking? I doubt that management is viewing this in Edmoton like comparisons as to the reason that they signed a player for $11.6 just to either: 1) have him play on the second line 2) have his signing be a reason to push their only legit.near elite top line center down to the second line.

You are getting caught up in L1 and L2. The icetime is nearly the same. There is next to no difference in L1 and L2 in terms of time on ice. Not to mention, he'll be on PP1, getting all of that ice time and be on the ice with Zibanejad, Kakko, Buch, etc.

Who said ANYTHING about a tank, deliberate or otherwise?

Nobody, but stacking a line and letting the kids play in the other spots is not a way to develop that kind of talent and will almost make it certain the team would be out of it early in the year.

What is "his own line"? Are we now presuming that he is not a complimentary player and now can be a spearhead driving his own line? If not, then why does he get a line that is "his own'?

His own line is that he can be the driving force on a line, that he would be the most skilled player on it and be a big reason for it's success. He can definitely become that, and starting him on the 3rd line would give him that shot with other young players to develop into a leader as well. Keep in mind, while he may not have a ton of games under his belt, he's one of the more veteran forwards coming into this season and the younger guys could look to him on how to adjust. I'm sure him and Kravtsov will be spending time together off the ice to help in his adjustment.

What they could do over time is one thing. What is the realistic expectation of them as under 2o rookies is entirely different. And if the goal is that they "COULD" become such complimentary players, then why are they being developed playing with such players on their line? First we discuss how not to thrust the rookies into roles that they are not ready for. Then we move on to how playing them in such roles will help them develop into complimentary players. Which is it? Are they to be given time to develop or thrust onto the top line immediately? Because, you know, that is what Edmonton did , speaking of them. And a reason as to why they are still rebuilding 10 years later.

Because developing young players isn't throwing them to the wolves together on a lower line while they are figuring it out. It's playing them with skill and helping them along. We have only a few players that can help that process. If somehow Kreider is still here, I'd say we have 4-5 guys that could do that: Zib, Panarin, Kreider, Fast (for the 4th line), and Strome. Buch could become that, given the chance. Namestnikov likely won't be around to do this (still believe he is traded this summer). Guys that get drafted that high don't go without being in the top 6 for long, especially when you're a top 3 pick. Kakko is going to be on our 2nd, maybe 1st line by the end of October. I'd argue Kravtsov could take longer, but by sometime in the middle of the season, he will be there too and would you rather the lines be:

Panarin-Zibanejad-Buchnevich (stack the top line)
Kakko-Chytil/Howden/Andersson-Kravtsov (kids on the 2nd)

or

Kakko-Zibanejad-Kravtsov (Give Zibanejad your two talented young wingers)
Panarin-Chytil/Howden/Andersson-Buchnevich (Let Panarin help bring along a young, talented center)

You could flip Buch and Kravstov in that 2nd set of lines if you want to. Even Lemieux could get some top 6 time, depending on how the lines shake out. Rarely, if ever, does a line of three rookies or three young players with little pro experience fair well in the NHL playing together, especially when those player are in the first games of their career. Give the line a chance by putting a top 5 winger in the NHL on the line and let him help them, while still being as productive as he always is.

 

[3rd Guy High]

Kakko-Zibanejad-Kravtsov (Give Zibanejad your two talented young wingers)
Panarin-Chytil/Howden/Andersson-Buchnevich (Let Panarin help bring along a young, talented center)

You could flip Buch and Kravstov in that 2nd set of lines if you want to. Even Lemieux could get some top 6 time, depending on how the lines shake out. Rarely, if ever, does a line of three rookies or three young players with little pro experience fair well in the NHL playing together, especially when those player are in the first games of their career. Give the line a chance by putting a top 5 winger in the NHL on the line and let him help them, while still being as productive as he always is.

This. The only way 3 rookies play together regularly this season is if it forced by injuries and they absolutely light the world on fire. Optimism that Kakko, Kravtsov and one of Chytil/Andersson/Howden have seasons somewhere in the 40-60 range is reasonable, but for them to do it all together on the same line is a long shot.

Not a gamble to take when you have two PPG players on your team that have both shown they can drive lines on their own when given talent to work with.

 

[kelsier]

The people that come here do not come with wild hunches. At least not the respected, vetted ones. I tend to believe their information

I never blindly trust anything and/or anyone. Also as far as I understood, the people who're you referring to never made such claims according to other posters here. Though, then again even that's pure speculation as no one has bothered to dig down to the origins. However, if incorrect facts were spread, feel free to correct any information shared by these vetted ones as false if you so wish.

I'd advice into reading some of the articles by yourself though as well as listening to the interviews. Take a relatively shot sentence like for instance, "Mike never pulled the trigger, it was Bob and the victim survived after hospital care", it would probably translate something like "A hospitalised patient shot Mike and Bob, who are now both in intensive care" after verbally passing from the original source to the tenth person in line.

 

[True Blue]

Did his production drop from when he left Patrick Kane's side? That was supposed to be his downfall. He went to Columbus and showed he was someone that could drive a line and play. His production isn't a concern, so long as he gets his ice time and PP time. We're also not saying he's going to play with Fast and Namestnikov like Zibanejad did this season. He'll be with young, skilled players.

I could care less what happened with Kane. I do however care what happens here. So again, are you telling me that Panarin's production will be the same whether it's ZBad as his center or Chytil or Howden?

You are getting caught up in L1 and L2. The icetime is nearly the same. There is next to no difference in L1 and L2 in terms of time on ice. Not to mention, he'll be on PP1, getting all of that ice time and be on the ice with Zibanejad, Kakko, Buch, etc.

A Panarin/Zbad combo will not receive nearly the same ice time as the second line.

Nobody, but stacking a line and letting the kids play in the other spots is not a way to develop that kind of talent and will almost make it certain the team would be out of it early in the year.

So, yes, we go from wanting to shelter the kids to throwing them to the wolves?

His own line is that he can be the driving force on a line, that he would be the most skilled player on it and be a big reason for it's success. He can definitely become that, and starting him on the 3rd line would give him that shot with other young players to develop into a leader as well. Keep in mind, while he may not have a ton of games under his belt, he's one of the more veteran forwards coming into this season and the younger guys could look to him on how to adjust. I'm sure him and Kravtsov will be spending time together off the ice to help in his adjustment.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I doubt that most envision Buch as the driving force of his own line.

And now that he finally established himself as someont that can play on the top lines, we are going to send him to the third to get other kids developed? Then why not send him to the 4th line to further let other young wings develop in the top-9?

Because developing young players isn't throwing them to the wolves together on a lower line while they are figuring it out. It's playing them with skill and helping them along.

That's exactly what Edmonton thougtht. Look at where they are. You do not develop kids by thrusting them on the top lines. You make them earn it. And if they do not earn it, then they have no business sniffing it. You also do not develop 18 year olds by putting them in positions to fail when from get go, they need to go against the opposition's top forwards and defensemen. That is a recipe for disaster.

 

[True Blue]

I never blindly trust anything and/or anyone. Also as far as I understood, the people who're you referring to never made such claims according to other posters here. Though, then again even that's pure speculation as no one has bothered to dig down to the origins. However, if incorrect facts were spread, feel free to correct any information shared by these vetted ones as false if you so wish.

Unless you were here, please do not presume to debate the information that was or was not passed along. As for me, there are certain sources that I trust. You can feel free to do whatever you feel like with yours.

I'd advice into reading some of the articles by yourself though as well as listening to the interviews. Take a relatively shot sentence like for instance, "Mike never pulled the trigger, it was Bob and the victim survived after hospital care", it would probably translate something like "A hospitalised patient shot Mike and Bob, who are now both in intensive care" after verbally passing from the original source to the tenth person in line.

And I will advise to continue to do as what makes you feel like. I will continue to read and listen to those who have a lot more insight than I do.

 

[kelsier]

Unless you were here, please do not presume to debate the information that was or was not passed along. As for me, there are certain sources that I trust. You can feel free to do whatever you feel like with yours.

And I will advise to continue to do as what makes you feel like. I will continue to read and listen to those who have a lot more insight than I do.

No no, along with my own observations I deal with facts rather than hearsay. Also I see no wrong in listening to other people as you'll quickly adapt into knowing who have good grasp and perception of things and are worth the time. It's as refreshing and at times educating, especially when dealing with prospects. Keeping an open mind is a good thing as long as you remember to exercise caution with whatever that is which comes across.

 

[JimmyG89]

I could care less what happened with Kane. I do however care what happens here. So again, are you telling me that Panarin's production will be the same whether it's ZBad as his center or Chytil or Howden?

His productivity will not be impacted by his center. It has not been his entire career. Not sure how many times it needs to be said. Maybe one more will get it through to you.

A Panarin/Zbad combo will not receive nearly the same ice time as the second line.

How much more are they going to get? Where is a law of diminishing returns? You can't run your forward lines like that and survive a long season. L1 getting significantly more time on ice than 2 will just result in those players being worn down over the course of the season. We've seen this story before with Torts grinding his top 4 D into the ground.

So, yes, we go from wanting to shelter the kids to throwing them to the wolves?

Is throwing a kid into the wolves playing them with Zibanejad or Panarin or sending them out there with lesser players? Imagine sending Kakko/Kravtsov out there with our bottom 6 type players where the on ice support wouldn't be as ideal as the few quality players we have. Quality of your teammates is a bigger factor than quality of the opponent. Putting these skilled kids with players that are bottom six players will not help them develop. We're not talking about players that have a low ceiling. These are guys that we are banking on becoming elite talent, top players in the league. The end goal is to make them 1st liners, and doing anything that shortens their time on ice and lessens the quality of the player they play with should not be tolerated.

That's exactly what Edmonton thougtht. Look at where they are. You do not develop kids by thrusting them on the top lines. You make them earn it. And if they do not earn it, then they have no business sniffing it. You also do not develop 18 year olds by putting them in positions to fail when from get go, they need to go against the opposition's top forwards and defensemen. That is a recipe for disaster.

Edmonton actually buries their kids. They play 2 games with their elite talent and then get sent to the 4th line to play with plugs. In the case of players like Puljujarvi, they get sent to the minors and never get to play with that talent again, no matter the production in the AHL. Limited role and limited ice time. There are only two ways to go with players Kravtsov and Kakko: They either play in the top 6 shortly after making their debut or even in their debut, or they should be in the AHL playing near 20 a night. There is no reason that they should be on L3 or L4 for any duration of more than maybe a game. You say they are being put in a position to fail by being on those lines. It's actually the opposite. It gives them the chance to succeed. Playing them anywhere else is setting them up to fail right off the bat.

Also, since it's painfully obvious that this is going nowhere, there is no need to respond or to do anything else with this conversation. These kids are going to be in the top 6, either at the beginning of the season or shortly after that. If they aren't doing that at the NHL level, they should be sent to Hartford to do it there. We're not in a position where our future and our top end talent are in roles that cause them to lose significant time on ice when they can grow the most right now.

 

[nyr__1994]

Colorado is not a very good example as they spent the great majority of the time played together.
As to the rest, most teams play their top players on their top lines. There is not nothing new to this.

Didn't Pittsburgh win a cup or two with Phil Kessell on the "third" line?

I think the point a lot of people in this thread are making is that while Panarin's official position is on the wing, a lot of his game is driving the play on his line, much like a center. Why would you put your two best players at driving the play in Zbad and Panarin? Breadman has already proved that he can take a young talented center in DuBois and make that a successful and productive line.

Isn't a team with two lines that can win their matchup on a nightly basis better than a team with only one line that consistently wins their match up? Its not so much as which line is line 1 and which line is line 2, as what combination of the 12 forwards give the team the best chance to win on a nightly basis. It is more about winning a hockey game than getting your best players to score a lot. What has McDavid accomplished besides scoring a lot of points? What has Colorado accomplished? The teams that are winning in this league are doing it with good players throughout their line up.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Call me when this debate circles back to Kravtsov

 

[nyr__1994]

Call me when this debate circles back to Kravtsov

Lines for 2019-2020 season:

Kreider - Zbad - Kakko
Panarin - Chytil - Kravstov
Lias - Howden - Lemeiux
McKegg - Strome - Fast

Kravtsov - I think will settle in nicely on the second line with Panarin being the primary play driver and will probably get the easier of the matchups with the Zbad line doing the heavy lifting against the other teams top lines.

 

[bleedblue94]

Not much. Rantanen played 85% of his ice time with MacKinnon. Of the remaining 15% some is due to double shifting. And then maybe like 10% is when they intentionally had different lines. 10% of his ice time is 116 mins which is like 7 games.

I never said anythign about Rantanen and Mackinnon. I said the top line was broken up often, that includes Landeskog. And Rantanaen was basically stapled to Mac for the first half, so almost 15% separation over close to half a season or less (since they spent the first half mostly together) doesn't really disprove anything there, nor does it account for landeskog.

Also, no reference to the time that Pasta, Bergeron and Marchand were NOT together at even strength, especially in the playoffs.

 

[bleedblue94]

Colorado is not a very good example as they spent the great majority of the time played together.
As to the rest, most teams play their top players on their top lines. There is not nothing new to this.

Okay, how about Boston when it was mentioned? And off the top of my head the following come to mind

Penguins kept crosby malkin and kessel on separate lines quote often.

Chicago has toews and kane on different lines most often

Dallas often moved radulov down to the "2nd" line to balance scoring

Edmonton has tried to separate MCD and LD for years to space offense, problem is they have no forward depth/skill to space out

Sure some teams load up on one line, but the point is that the notion isn't as outrageous as some make it out to be to space out elite offensive threats, especially while developing offensive talent. Chicago is a great example as kane and toews each play a role with different players to aid in development. Sure seems to be working out with some of the young, talented players they have. It's not like if zib and panarin aren't on the same line they wont get close to 20 mins a night each. They can still do that playing on different ES lines and on the PP together.

 

[bleedblue94]

Lines for 2019-2020 season:

Kreider - Zbad - Kakko
Panarin - Chytil - Kravstov
Lias - Howden - Lemeiux
McKegg - Strome - Fast

Kravtsov - I think will settle in nicely on the second line with Panarin being the primary play driver and will probably get the easier of the matchups with the Zbad line doing the heavy lifting against the other teams top lines.

I would personally flip kakko and kravstov but this makes sense except you're missing VN90

 

[nyr__1994]

I would personally flip kakko and kravstov but this makes sense except you're missing VN90

Someone has to go to make the cap work...Buch gets traded for an ELC and or a 1st round draft pick and Namestnikov goes for a bag of pucks and a chocolate cookie...

This allows the NYR to build in the depth behind the young studs like Kravtsov and Kakko and keep the building going. At some point a young C is going to shake loose and the NYR will have the assets to make the move without hurting the pipeline... (cough) McDavid (cough)

 

[EdJovanovski]

Anyone who thinks we should trade Buch is a bozo.

 

[Irishguy42]

Don't bring JT Miller into this

Anyone who thinks we should trade Buch is a bozo.

 

[True Blue]

His productivity will not be impacted by his center. It has not been his entire career. Not sure how many times it needs to be said. Maybe one more will get it through to you.

I got it. Panarin nets 90 points with Howden as his center, no matter how good or poorly Howden plays.

How much more are they going to get? Where is a law of diminishing returns? You can't run your forward lines like that and survive a long season. L1 getting significantly more time on ice than 2 will just result in those players being worn down over the course of the season. We've seen this story before with Torts grinding his top 4 D into the ground.

No one is being run in the ground. Look at the average ice time of ZBad over the average 2nd line center on the Rangers last year. That is your differential. Also take into account that they will draw the toughest assignments and either the top lines or the top defensive players. That is not insignificant. I see no evidence whatsoever that Quinn ground ZBad into the ground last year.

Is throwing a kid into the wolves playing them with Zibanejad or Panarin or sending them out there with lesser players?

Yes, because you have now trust them into a premier role with all of the pressures that come along side of it.

There are only two ways to go with players Kravtsov and Kakko: They either play in the top 6 shortly after making their debut or even in their debut, or they should be in the AHL playing near 20 a night.

If Quinn and Gorton decide that the best way for them to develop is playing lesser minutes in the NHL level, I will trust that. Or they can both play on the second line and develop that way. Or if they show something one can start on top and one can be on second. Many ways to skin this cat.

 

[True Blue]

Okay, how about Boston when it was mentioned? And off the top of my head the following come to mind

Penguins kept crosby malkin and kessel on separate lines quote often.

Chicago has toews and kane on different lines most often

Dallas often moved radulov down to the "2nd" line to balance scoring

Edmonton has tried to separate MCD and LD for years to space offense, problem is they have no forward depth/skill to space out

Sure some teams load up on one line, but the point is that the notion isn't as outrageous as some make it out to be to space out elite offensive threats, especially while developing offensive talent. Chicago is a great example as kane and toews each play a role with different players to aid in development. Sure seems to be working out with some of the young, talented players they have. It's not like if zib and panarin aren't on the same line they wont get close to 20 mins a night each. They can still do that playing on different ES lines and on the PP together.

You are listing apples and oranges. Citing Crosby and Malkin? Really? This team is not in the situation of those teams. 1) they do not have the support like the other teams did 2) they are not going to be competeting for what the other teams were. Discussing the reasons for line moves for a team that has Stanley Cup aspirations and or serious playoff aspritations and and emerging team is assinine. Like it or not, this is still going to be a development year. If the make the playoffs, great. But that is not the goal. The goal is to have the youngsters take steps forward and not get thrust into roles with expectations that they are not ready for. I doubt that such statements could be made for Kane or Malkin or Kessel.

 

[redwhiteandblue]

I’d be trying to get the kid to bite on a Brady Skjei like deal.

 

[Leetch3]

I’d be trying to get the kid to bite on a Brady Skjei like deal.

Kravtsov?

 

[Inferno]

Anyone who thinks we should trade Buch is a bozo.

Should? No. But I'd listen.