GDT: 2017 Stanley Cup Playoffs thread

[tarheelhockey]

I'm a Durham guy, but you are *seriously* underselling the growth of downtown Raleigh over the past five years. There's, like, a dozen *good* bars within a ten minute walk of the amphitheater, and they are routinely busy-to-packed. Ever been in Poole's at 5:30pm on a Tuesday?

I'd argue that the Convention Center has a lot more to do with that than Red Hat.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'd argue that the Convention Center has a lot more to do with that than Red Hat.

I don't think it's one or the other. It's the Convention center, it's the Amphitheater, it's that's there's much more housing downtown now, it's the performing art's center, it's that businesses like RedHat moved down there which adds to the daytime and after work crowds, it's that there's more hotels, etc... 10-15 year ago, that part of Raleigh (ie..non-Glenwood) was pretty much a ghost town once the government workers went home.

Nightlife has grown by leaps and bounds in the past 10 years.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I don't think it's one or the other. It's the Convention center, it's the Amphitheater, it's that's there's much more housing downtown now, it's the performing art's center, it's that businesses like RedHat moved down there which adds to the daytime and after work crowds, it's that there's more hotels, etc... 10-15 year ago, that part of Raleigh (ie..non-Glenwood) was pretty much a ghost town once the government workers went home.

Nightlife has grown by leaps and bounds in the past 10 years.

Yep. Exactly this. I know a lot of people who visit the area on business, and for those folks, it's night and day difference between now and even a few years ago.

It's all about critical mass. Downtown Raleigh is reaching it. So is downtown Durham. People are buying million dollar condos in the middle of both downtowns.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Nightlife has grown by leaps and bounds in the past 10 years.

I don't deny that, but we're comparing it to flippin' Nashville here. A dozen bars scattered over a bunch of city blocks doesn't have the same impact or hold the same potential as an actual entertainment district like Broadway.

Again, I like downtown Raleigh. As noted, you can find a good bar there and have a good time for a fraction of the cost and hassle of doing the same thing in a larger city. But it's not remotely comparable to the immersive, full-service "crazy night on the town" experience of Nashville. Hell, we've got a ways to go before we stand up to downtown Columbus. And Columbus has had a downtown arena for almost 20 years to sort-of-not-really drive that kind of development.

 

[Unsustainable]

Charlotte made the move and put the Hornets, Knights, and Panthers in town. TWC has the EpiCentre right beside it, the Latta Arcade with the Knights, Panthers is kind of off a little, but plenty to walk to with a game.

With the new building going up in Raleigh, they need to make the move and get a facility in town.

 

[Unsustainable]

I don't deny that, but we're comparing it to flippin' Nashville here. A dozen bars scattered over a bunch of city blocks doesn't have the same impact or hold the same potential as an actual entertainment district like Broadway.

Again, I like downtown Raleigh. As noted, you can find a good bar there and have a good time for a fraction of the cost and hassle of doing the same thing in a larger city. But it's not remotely comparable to the immersive, full-service "crazy night on the town" experience of Nashville. Hell, we've got a ways to go before we stand up to downtown Columbus. And Columbus has had a downtown arena for almost 20 years to sort-of-not-really drive that kind of development.

Nashville has been its own thing forever as a music city. It's not fair to expect a Broadway atmosphere, but you put an arena a couple places will pop up.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Bulldoze the performing arts center.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Charlotte made the move and put the Hornets, Knights, and Panthers in town. TWC has the EpiCentre right beside it, the Latta Arcade with the Knights, Panthers is kind of off a little, but plenty to walk to with a game.

With the new building going up in Raleigh, they need to make the move and get a facility in town.

Yeah, I lived there when all that was going on and I lived uptown during the heart of that boom. I was actively involved with Charlotte's urbanplanet forum. A lot of that development was neighborhood news for me.

The Panthers stadium was supposed to kick off a revitalization of Third Ward. It sat there isolated in a sea of parking lots and crumbling warehouses for 20 years before the city decided to build a park there. Guess what happened immediately after they built the park.

TWC Arena was supposed to be the center of an entertainment district like what we're talking about here. Turns out, the major pieces (Epicentre, the College Street cluster) were already in place by the time the arena opened. Today the area around TWC is basically indistinguishable from how it looked when I moved away almost 10 years ago. Its most appreciable impact was providing a much needed excuse to build a rail connection there.

Likewise the Knights stadium is a great place to see a game. At most it's drawn a handful of restaurants to that area, but there is no entertainment district blossoming. Latta Arcade has flourished which is nice, but that was there a LONG time before the ballpark and we're talking about less than one block of activity there.

Basically my point is, these projects don't drive entertainment districts. What remade uptown Charlotte was the fact that they got a Harris Teeter, the fact that they built actual urban parks, the light rail making it possible to move in and out of the district without a car, and alllll the condo development that followed those additions. Bringing people into the district for 4 hours to eat a meal, watch a game, and then leave has very little impact on long term development. It's the 24/7, live-work-play development which packs a punch, and that doesn't come from throwing up a big arena project for concerts and hockey games.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't deny that, but we're comparing it to flippin' Nashville here. A dozen bars scattered over a bunch of city blocks doesn't have the same impact or hold the same potential as an actual entertainment district like Broadway.

Yeah, I wasn't saying it was "Nashville" like, just expanding on the fact that it's a bit more vibrant than your post indicated (even if you didn't intend that).

It's an evolution in Raleigh that is really being driven by the growth in residential and businesses moving downtown more than anything, as Hank said, the critical mass. Right now, Raleigh's nightlife is likely still largely an ingress of people that don't live downtown. That is starting to change and when it gets to the point where more and more people are actually living in downtown Raleigh, that's when you'll see the nightlife grow exponentially.

An arena downtown would be nice, but I don't see it anytime in the near future.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Bulldoze the performing arts center.

Nah. Raleigh is striving to become a "real" modern city that people want to go to and a vibrant arts is crucial to that. Unless you are suggesting bulldoze it and replace it with a better performing arts center, it would be a huge mistake to eliminate that performing arts center.

Look at the impact DPAC has had on Durham. Granted, it's a newer and better facility, but if anything Raleigh as a city, needs to expand it's Arts, whether that be visual or performing. The NC Museum of Art is a decent art museum, but unfortunately, it's not downtown.

 

[Unsustainable]

For comparison, the Strip District in Pittsburgh might be the closest to Nashville for having a place to walk to around and have a night life after a game.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Nah. Raleigh is striving to become a "real" modern city that people want to go to and a vibrant arts is crucial to that. Unless you are suggesting bulldoze it and replace it with a better performing arts center, it would be a huge mistake to eliminate that performing arts center.

I'd agree with that, though I have to say the front lawn is a massive waste of space.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

For comparison, the Strip District in Pittsburgh might be the closest to Nashville for having a place to walk to around and have a night life after a game.

Montreal does. MSG does. I'm sure there are more but those are two I've been to.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'd agree with that, though I have to say the front lawn is a massive waste of space.

No doubt.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Nah. Raleigh is striving to become a "real" modern city that people want to go to and a vibrant arts is crucial to that. Unless you are suggesting bulldoze it and replace it with a better performing arts center, it would be a huge mistake to eliminate that performing arts center.

Look at the impact DPAC has had on Durham. Granted, it's a newer and better facility, but if anything Raleigh as a city, needs to expand it's Arts, whether that be visual or performing. The NC Museum of Art is a decent art museum, but unfortunately, it's not downtown.

I'm not saying to not have a performing arts center, I'm saying not there. Move it to where that outdated plan has a new arena pictured.

 

[Unsustainable]

A lot of these things for growth has to happen organically, Beale Street wasn't the result of central planning to push an image. Like Asheville got to be where it is by being it's weird self.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'm not saying to not have a performing arts center, I'm saying not there. Move it to where that outdated plan has a new arena pictured.

Ah, ok. But then I ask, why? The two locations you are talking about are maybe 1/4 mile apart. I don't see what moving it accomplishes, other than costing more money to move it.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

A lot of these things for growth has to happen organically, Beale Street wasn't the result of central planning to push an image. Like Asheville got to be where it is by being it's weird self.

I think there is/was more planning to Asheville than you are suggesting. I'm not saying that planning initially defined the image of what Asheville is, but there was, and still is, a significant amount of planning that manages, encourages, that and definitely pushes the image.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Ah, ok. But then I ask, why? The two locations you are talking about are maybe 1/4 mile apart. I don't see what moving it accomplishes, other than costing more money to move it.

Because I'm lazy as **** and want that 1/4 mile back when walking to Fayetteville St. We're not getting a downtown arena within the next 20 years anyway, so I'm just throwing **** out. Hell, I'd rather plop an arena where the convention center is, even if that means having to move the amphitheater as well.

 

[Unsustainable]

Could the renovations include bulldozing the fair grounds?

 

[tarheelhockey]

2017: RodTheBawd named Raleigh city manager

2020: Raleigh declared densest urban area on earth

 

[Lempo]

2017: RodTheBawd named Raleigh city manager

2020: Raleigh declared densest urban area on earth

Um... which definition of the word?

 

[RodTheBawd]

2017: RodTheBawd named Raleigh city manager

2020: Raleigh declared densest urban area on earth

I learned a lot from my days of killing off entire cities in SimCity 2000. At the time, I didn't see the value in providing citizens with running water, especially when they could have a blast at any of the 4 theme parks and 5 sports complexes. I've clearly come a long way.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I don't deny that, but we're comparing it to flippin' Nashville here.

No, *you* are comparing it to Nashville. No one pretends for a second that Raleigh is freakin' Nashville. But Raleigh *is* growing its population at 3% *per year*.

Basically my point is, these projects don't drive entertainment districts.

Except, of course, for when they do -- like the Durham Bulls Athletic Park did. Opened in 1996, and lots of folks said "that's the dumbest idea ever, the old DAP was just fine." Except it was a gorgeous ballpark, and it drew *lots* of people. The success of the DBAP led directly to CBC's investment in American Tobacco, which led directly to the city's investment in the DPAC, which led directly to the full revitalization that's going on downtown.

I'm not saying a Raleigh arena is a slamdunk -- or necessarily even a good idea, all things considered. But I am saying that it's a much more defensible possibility than you're giving it credit for.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I learned a lot from my days of killing off entire cities in SimCity 2000. At the time, I didn't see the value in providing citizens with running water, especially when they could have a blast at any of the 4 theme parks and 5 sports complexes. I've clearly come a long way.

I am proud to unveil... Raleigh Master Plan 2020!

That's the whole city.