2017 Offseason Thread 3.0

[LAKings88]

Dustin Brown was not a problem this year. If Blake moves someone for cap purposes, it should be Marion Gaborik.

If left unprotected, I wouldn't be surprised if Vegas took Brown.

The term on the contract is the issue.

 

[Johnny Utah]

The Penguins won a Cup with a defense of Schultz, Maatta, Daley, Cole, Dumoulin, Hainsey, with Streit and Ruhwedel as their spares. No All-Stars on that blueline. Being smart and consistent seemed to overcome the lack of high end talent on defense. That blueline combined for 10 goals during their Cup run.

The Kings don't need a bunch of flashy names, but what they need is a smarter and more physical defense that can protect the blueline and the front of the net. The Penguins don't have any crushers on their blueline, but those guys knew how to use their sticks effectively and were always in great position and defended superbly. Things the Kings used to be good at.

Speaking of the Penguins, how much of a dumbass does Dean Lombardi appear to be now after he called the Penguins the "flavor of the month" last year? That's something I'd expect to read from your typical HF poster, not a GM who should realize how tough it is to assemble multi-time Cup champions.

They were talking this on NHL radio this morning - how the Pens were without their number one D man in Letang but won because they had two amazing goalies and were deep at center.

Should teams now get a really good back up and load up at center and not worry about D from now on? Pens had Crosby, Malkin, Bonino and Cullen at center and Murray/Fleury in goal.

Lombardi is kinda naive for not adapting but I saw his point when he said this. He was saying that the Kings play the Sharks, Ducks, and Oilers a lot of times during the season and putting together a small or fast squad would get them murdered. Those teams are big and young and fast. The Kings are only big now, they are old and slow except for Lewis and Carter.

 

[lexlavender]

Anyone here who is looking at this year's Penguins team and thinks that it means that the traditional focus on D core and possession hockey is dead will be in for a rude awakening. So many things had to break right for the Pens to repeat this year with how extensive they're injuries were, and much more than just the average "every team has to be lucky to win".

Our D core, as it stands now, is already much better than what the Pen's iced this year.

 

[KopitarFAN]

Anyone here who is looking at this year's Penguins team and thinks that it means that the traditional focus on D core and possession hockey is dead will be in for a rude awakening. So many things had to break right for the Pens to repeat this year with how extensive they're injuries were, and much more than just the average "every team has to be lucky to win".

Our D core, as it stands now, is already much better than what the Pen's iced this year.

If the main 3 play to their potential, and the other 3 (Forbort, Gravel and LaDue) take a step forward, sure. However, they would still face the problem of lacking offense, after Carter, Kopitar, Toffoli and Pearson get 90-100 goals as a group (last year they had 84) where does the offense come from?

 

[lexlavender]

If the main 3 play to their potential, and the other 3 (Forbort, Gravel and LaDue) take a step forward, sure. However, they would still face the problem of lacking offense, after Carter, Kopitar, Toffoli and Pearson get 90-100 goals as a group (last year they had 84) where does the offense come from?

I'm totally on board with trading one of our D for offense. I'm just saying don't sell our current D build short.

 

[johnjm22]

In the modern history of the NHL, there's been many different "types" of teams that have been successful. It doesn't really matter how your team is built or what style you play it just matters how good you are at doing it.

 

[lumbergh]

They were talking this on NHL radio this morning - how the Pens were without their number one D man in Letang but won because they had two amazing goalies and were deep at center.

Should teams now get a really good back up and load up at center and not worry about D from now on? Pens had Crosby, Malkin, Bonino and Cullen at center and Murray/Fleury in goal.

Teams that spend a lot of time copying another team's formula don't win. By the time your team looks like another team, there will be a new trend in the NHL.

Teams that figure out how to be generally competitive and find an extra edge win. It could be a defensive system, exceptional team play, or a collection of extraordinary players. Lombardi created a team culture based on a heavy game and team defense that led to two Cups. Then the Sharks passed them by, but they ran into the Penguins.

Now that the Kings have a new regime in place, Blake and Stevens have to figure out what the next winning scheme looks like before the rest of the league does. You take the players you have, add a system that maximizes their abilities, then add a player or two that makes you hard to beat.

The Kings already have a very good defensive group. To toss that out of the window to follow the Penguins would be a mistake.

 

[LAKings88]

Replicating Pitt is not possible.

Acknowledging speed is tho.

Doesn't mean going out getting 9 Grabners.

Just play at more up tempo level.

 

[Martyros]

If the main 3 play to their potential, and the other 3 (Forbort, Gravel and LaDue) take a step forward, sure. However, they would still face the problem of lacking offense, after Carter, Kopitar, Toffoli and Pearson get 90-100 goals as a group (last year they had 84) where does the offense come from?

Drouin and JVR!

 

[KopitarFAN]

Drouin and JVR!

I have said, and will continue to say "no" to JVR, no more rentals.

 

[deaderhead28]

in 2019-2020 the Kings already have tied up 53,000,000 in 11 guys (Richards Cap hit is included in this number.)

This does not include Doughty who will probably should at least maintain his $7,000,000 salary.

So 60,000,000 for 12 guys. Hard to say where cap will be but lets say 78,000,000 million. Given what's happen with ESPN, and how people are cutting the cable hard to imagine cable networks shelling out bigger bucks.

So 18 million for 10 or 11 guys. And by then Forbort, Kempe (if he performs), Dowd if Vegas does not take him him, will have pretty good raises, so we are down to maybe 8 guys, but we probably are down to 11 million to sign 8.


There was an opportunity to buyout Richards, Kings chose not to and are paying dearly.

Brown had a good season, but this is not about his play today, its about 2-3 years down the road and Doughty's deal, and what happen if Pearson and Toffoli, average 30 goals per year.

Better to give up Brown and the 1st, and a guarantee, that Vegas will not take a couple of unprotected players than, than hope the number 11 pick actually turns into something.

Long Term Cap>11th pick, especially if the CAP remains flat.

Assume this trading of pick and Brown would be a 1 year opportunity, if you don't take advantage you probably are resigned to wearing the millstone around your neck for the next 3-4 years

Another person of reason.

 

[Bandit]

The Penguins won a Cup with a defense of Schultz, Maatta, Daley, Cole, Dumoulin, Hainsey, with Streit and Ruhwedel as their spares. No All-Stars on that blueline. Being smart and consistent seemed to overcome the lack of high end talent on defense. That blueline combined for 10 goals during their Cup run.

The Kings don't need a bunch of flashy names, but what they need is a smarter and more physical defense that can protect the blueline and the front of the net. The Penguins don't have any crushers on their blueline, but those guys knew how to use their sticks effectively and were always in great position and defended superbly. Things the Kings used to be good at.

Speaking of the Penguins, how much of a dumbass does Dean Lombardi appear to be now after he called the Penguins the "flavor of the month" last year? That's something I'd expect to read from your typical HF poster, not a GM who should realize how tough it is to assemble multi-time Cup champions.

Having 2 generational Centers as your 1-2 punch more likely. I love Kopitar/Carter, but they are not Crosby/Malkin. Also IMO Muzzin and Martinez are the exact kind of "no flashy names" guys you're talking about. The only Marquee guy on our D is Doughty.

 

[johnjm22]

Assuming last year was an aberration for Muzzin, I happen to like our defense quite a bit. I think Forbort, LaDue and Gravel are all going to be quality NHL players.

 

[Reaper45]

That is 1.5 million down a rat hole, yes they are paying dearly imho. Kings are already working with even less of a cap than many other teams in the NHL

The numbers I gave you took into account Greene already gone, McNab number gone too..

I am looking 2 years down the road. Not next year

Just like there is a cup window, we might be looking at shed yourself of the Brown contract window, it might only be this year.

Ladue is gonna get an increase, Forbort is gonna get an increase. If Kempe produces he is gonna get an increase. Rid yourself of Brown you got that part covered probably with cash left over.

You can pick up prospects in many ways. Imama deal is an example You look to Europe. Look for the late bloomer from college.

Guess Blake has to weigh does the 11th pick provide more benefit to the team than keeping a guy 5 more years til age 38, at 5.8 million.

Would you trade Kopi to Vegas to get rid of Brown, nope
Would you trade Colten Teubert (now of the Thomas Sabo Ice Tigers) and Brown to Vegas, yep.

Either decision is not wrong, but I think there are more avenues to restock than there are to correct what is almost an uncorrectable situation.

Your making a huge assumpton that Brown will play until 38. Every anti Brown rant I hear is that his play has slipped because of his style and that his body can't take the beating, but then the anti Brown crowd also automatically assumes he's going to last until he's 38. The two don't fit.

 

[Bandit]

Your making a huge assumpton that Brown will play until 38. Every anti Brown rant I hear is that his play has slipped because of his style and that his body can't take the beating, but then the anti Brown crowd also automatically assumes he's going to last until he's 38. The two don't fit.

It would be fool-hearty to assume he WON'T play out his contract. Even if he's limping around the ice like the ghost of Shane Doan, you can bet he'll collect that paycheck.

 

[LAKings88]

Brown at 2m a year doesn't raise an eyebrow.

6m is first line winger money.

As good as he was in the past, he has had three pretty bad years under this contract.

Was it all Sutter? Who knows?

Do you think he will regain form next year? What is a good year for Brown now?

Is he going to be relegated to 3rd line minutes the rest of his career?

Will he see any PP time?

If he can't perform as a first line player, why not move on and create more options down the road?

 

[KINGS17]

Your making a huge assumpton that Brown will play until 38. Every anti Brown rant I hear is that his play has slipped because of his style and that his body can't take the beating, but then the anti Brown crowd also automatically assumes he's going to last until he's 38. The two don't fit.

Brown can adjust his style and last until age 38. He has already toned down the number and severity of hits he delivers quite a bit. No reason to think he won't collect all of his money.

The last two years of his deal he has a salary of $4M, for a total of $8M. Some team will have to buy out the contract for him to not play it out.

 

[bland]

Again I'm not arguing with you on any of that, I'm simply saying, who could come in and replace the production Brown provides and at a price that makes sense, considering to move Brown the Kings will have to retain salary.

If it costs the Kings 2 million in retention to move Brown, you still have to pay his replacement x number of dollars. So what forward out there can provide what he does for a price that makes sense to actually move Brown out?

There isn't. The Kings are not contending again any time soon, and giving away any picks now is just a terrible idea.

You have to keep Brown and Gaborik until their deals are more palatable as buyouts, which is three seasons from now. Yeah, it's bleak, but there are far too many holes in the organization to even waste time hoping they can contend with this group.

Icing a team that is up against the cap while only being able to work in college graduate aged players with just modest expectations is no way to run an organization. They have won one playoff game in three years, and it's no coincidence. The cupboard is too bare to supply the kinds of cost controlled options they need to supplement the awful contract extensions Lombardi gave out.

The right decisions to make are the ones that aren't fun for us fans. I like speculating about trades as much as anyone, but as a Kings fan, I want them to ride out these deals, collect young talent, and have the ability to make good deals when they are in a position to challenge again. That certainly isn't now. Spending picks and eating cap space just​ to bring in one more player won't help enough.

 

[Herby]

Most of the guys who leave long term big money deals to retire are European guys who return home to play and usually raise their children in their own home country.

Brown seems to have set down roots in LA, no reason for him to retire before his contract is up unless he suffers a serious or chronic injury and ends up on LTIR.

 

[lumbergh]

Brown at 2m a year doesn't raise an eyebrow.

6m is first line winger money.

As good as he was in the past, he has had three pretty bad years under this contract.

Was it all Sutter? Who knows?

Do you think he will regain form next year? What is a good year for Brown now?

Is he going to be relegated to 3rd line minutes the rest of his career?

Will he see any PP time?

If he can't perform as a first line player, why not move on and create more options down the road?

Brown tied for first among Kings wingers for points at 5 vs 5 in 2016-17. I know it sounds crazy, but Dustin Brown was the Kings first line winger last season, production-wise. Even if you look at the numbers per 60 minutes played, Brown still outplayed Toffoli and Gaborik.

 

[BigKing]

Brown tied for first among Kings wingers for points at 5 vs 5 in 2016-17. I know it sounds crazy, but Dustin Brown was the Kings first line winger last season, production-wise. Even if you look at the numbers per 60 minutes played, Brown still outplayed Toffoli and Gaborik.

14 goals and 36 points = 2017 Kings 1st line winger.

It doesn't sound crazy when you look at their record and total offense on the year. It actually makes complete sense.

As for Brown, 36 points is fine and all but not at $6MM a year. That being said, I'm not in the trade him and #11OA unless there was another deal (Drouin) contingent upon opening up his space.

I don't expect them to win a Cup in the next few years under the current trajectory. Since I don't want to see Brown playing for anyone but LA, I'm fine with keeping him for now. There are no UFAs out there to replace his cap hit with that make this team legit.

 

[LAKings88]

Brown tied for first among Kings wingers for points at 5 vs 5 in 2016-17. I know it sounds crazy, but Dustin Brown was the Kings first line winger last season, production-wise. Even if you look at the numbers per 60 minutes played, Brown still outplayed Toffoli and Gaborik.

By defacto, and both players were hampered by serious injuries.

I like Brown and am grateful for what he has done.

I hope he can regain his old form under a new system but his contract is one of the worst in the league and everyone knows it.

He took good steps last year and I think he is serviceable for a few more years, but that money can be allotted to young players on the team and Doughty in long term thinking.

It would suck to lose a first but the jury is really out on the draft. A second rounder may have as much upside as the 11OA.

I'd love for them to keep the pick but I won't cry if Brown is moved.

 

[Legionnaire]

The term on the contract is the issue.

Vegas is likely far from being competitive so I doubt it is an issue. I'm fairly sure that by the time Brown's contract becomes an issue for Vegas it will likely have very little left so it will be much easier to buy out or trade.

Edit: Nevermind. You were talking about us. I still am unsure how much of an issue it will be for us. It's not as though there are very many UFA's out there these days, we don't really have the assets to make a trade for a high dollar player, so who or where is the money going to go to?

 

[Bandit]

There isn't. The Kings are not contending again any time soon, and giving away any picks now is just a terrible idea.

You have to keep Brown and Gaborik until their deals are more palatable as buyouts, which is three seasons from now. Yeah, it's bleak, but there are far too many holes in the organization to even waste time hoping they can contend with this group.

Icing a team that is up against the cap while only being able to work in college graduate aged players with just modest expectations is no way to run an organization. They have won one playoff game in three years, and it's no coincidence. The cupboard is too bare to supply the kinds of cost controlled options they need to supplement the awful contract extensions Lombardi gave out.

The right decisions to make are the ones that aren't fun for us fans. I like speculating about trades as much as anyone, but as a Kings fan, I want them to ride out these deals, collect young talent, and have the ability to make good deals when they are in a position to challenge again. That certainly isn't now. Spending picks and eating cap space just​ to bring in one more player won't help enough.

More terrible than letting the current core rot? By the time any draft picks are ready to play Kopitar will be a second line center, Carter will be gone and Doughty will be in Toronto (or wherever). Let's face it, there is no good way out of this without some insane luck.

 

[The Tikkanen]

More terrible than letting the current core rot? By the time any draft picks are ready to play Kopitar will be a second line center, Carter will be gone and Doughty will be in Toronto (or wherever). Let's face it, there is no good way out of this without some insane luck.

That's the key point but this is HF so it's not gonna fly. The Kings are in win now mode, Blake wants more offense-you get neither of those with Brown returning. As far as Brown's 5v5 numbers those stats helped the Kings to miss the playoffs.